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Old 02-08-2010, 07:00 AM   #1
aloner
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EcoSMART Organic Insecticide killed my plants!

Hi all,
this is my first post, I'm a new grower and on day 3 of my grow I noticed tell-tale signs of spider mites on several of my plants. i went to home depot and bought some no-pest strips and after looking at several insecticides, I was interested in "EcoSMART Organic Insecticide" which claimed to be non-toxic and safe to use on plants you eat.

The instructions said to spray the plants but not so much that they are dripping, so that's exactly what I did. I gave them all a nice spray but none of the plants were too wet. I left and came back 4 hours later and this is what I found (images attached).

My only conclusion is that the insecticide must have done this, since the plants all looked healthy before I sprayed them, and they all drooped in a matter of 4 hours.

Has anyone used this insecticide before? What has your experience been?

The ingredients are:
.25% Rosemary Oil
.25% Peppermint Oil
.25% Thyme Oil
.25% Clove Oil
99% Other Ingredients*
*Water, Mineral Oil, Octadecenoic Acid Potassium Salt, Lecithin

Do any of these ingredients sound like something that would kill my plants?

I rinsed the plants with water after I saw them like this, and watered them again, hoping to flush the insecticide out....is there any hope for my crop or should I dump it?
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Old 02-08-2010, 07:05 AM   #2
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Your soil looks dry as a bone.

Thats amazing what happened in only 4 hours, dam, I won't be using that stuff.

I hope they liven back up for your, I don't know what could have caused that from the ingredients in the spray.
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Old 02-08-2010, 07:16 AM   #3
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When I initially watered them I just watered around the plant since they're clones and the roots haven't spread yet. It looks pretty dry in the pictures but it was still moist when I stuck my fingers about 2 inches in. Also, I watered them again after taking those pictures, hoping to get rid of whatever caused that.

I think I forgot to spray one of the plants because it's the only one that didn't droop. Here is a picture of that one for comparison, this is what they all looked like before I sprayed them...
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Old 02-08-2010, 10:18 AM   #4
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dude, that has to bite....... what do your plants look like now?

Which product are you using, there are several insecticides they carry that are organic?
Those plants are acting like they got all moisture cut off of them.... like water was sucked from the entire system, kinda like if you grew clones in a dome and never weaned them to lower humidity.

What are your humidity levels?
How big are those pots? Gallon size?

Few things here, I see you are watering where the plant is which is what you are supposed to do when you have a small plant in a big pot.

When plants are low on water and you use any type of horticultural oils it can cause this problem, because of the way they work by smothering the insect...

It's the mineral oil, because of this..... with it being thick and the plant absorbs it; it can cause clogging of the inside of the plants vascular tissue, not to mention if you got a plant that is touchy to oils.... also if used too heavily can do it too....

In humans mineral oil can flush out your system and can cause dehydration; since your plants look like they have never been watred; there is a
high probability that your plants did not like the mineral oil, or the product contained too much/quality of the oil was bad.

here is what I am talking about in more detail.

http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/co...ll/56/420/2755

Localization and movement of mineral oil in plants by fluorescence and confocal microscopy

Naturally occurring acidic compounds in oils, and such compounds formed largely by oxidation of unsaturated molecules present in most contemporary HMOs and AMOs, cause acute effects that are generally observed as burns and necrotic lesions shortly after application of oil to plants.

These effects are primarily related to cell death due to disruption of membranes by the acidic compounds, and are influenced by oil quality, dose, and ambient conditions, particularly temperature, humidity, and ultraviolet light (Hodgkinson et al., 2002Go). Such symptoms are perhaps the most widely recognized form of phytotoxicity and are commonly associated with oils with relatively high levels (≥8%) of unsaturated molecules. However, acute phytotoxicity such as rapid leaf drop may also result from the impact of high dose applications of HMOs and AMOs on plant growth regulators (Johnson et al., 2002Go).

These dramatic effects are most common when sprays are applied to moisture-stressed plants, immediately before or after extreme ambient temperatures and humidity. The risk increases with increasing median nCy values, and is generally related to the persistence of isoalkanes and cycloalkanes on sprayed surfaces. Such molecules comprise ≥92% of molecules in HMOs and AMOs. Under such extreme conditions, slowly volatilizing oil deposits lead to ethylene-induced abscission (Johnson et al., 2002Go).

Under average conditions and in the absence of moisture stress, high doses of products, particularly high molecular weight HMOs and AMOs, may cause chronic symptoms, such as loss of vigour, leaf and fruit drop, and reduced flowering and fruit set (Furness and Maelzer, 1981Go; Beattie et al., 1989Go). The causes of this type of phytotoxicity are poorly understood and the manner and consequences of the movement of petroleum-derived spray oils within plants under different conditions have been largely ignored despite their importance in selecting the appropriate oil to use. Although the penetration and movement of herbicidal oils in some plants have been demonstrated since the 1950s (van Overbeek and Blondeau, 1954Go; Gauvrit and Cabanne, 1993Go), the last detailed studies on the movement of pesticidal oils into, and within, plants were reported by Knight et al. (1929)Go and Rohrbaugh (1934Go, 1941Go) for citrus, and by Young (1933Go, 1934Go, 1935Go, 1936Go, 1941Go) for apples and vegetables. These important studies have not received the attention they deserve given the potential for oil to interfere with gas exchange and translocation of water and metabolites
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Old 02-08-2010, 10:26 AM   #5
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I rinse off any premixed pesticides after use. This has happened to me before, but not as bad. Sucks to see.

Those look kinda small for that anyways.
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Old 02-08-2010, 04:22 PM   #6
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I think they just might've been too small to take it...

Are you sure that the concentrate was fully mixed? I've had similar problems (although not quite that bad) in the past using fish oil based sprays when I didn't properly agitate the mixture...

Either way, if you've got spider mites this was probably a good thing overall. Ditch the plants, bleach everything, and start over. Next time when they are small only use neem or safer soap (not the 3-part).
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Old 02-09-2010, 05:11 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MynameStitch View Post
dude, that has to bite....... what do your plants look like now?
All of them still look the same, some of the leaves are hardening now while others still have moisture in them. I was planning on dumping the whole crop and starting fresh tomorrow...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MynameStitch View Post
Which product are you using, there are several insecticides they carry that are organic?
EcoSmart Organic Garden Insect Killer

Quote:
Originally Posted by MynameStitch View Post
What are your humidity levels?
How big are those pots? Gallon size?
Temperatures have been fluctuating from 75-82 degrees, humidity started extremely low, around 20%...but now I've got it up to 40-45% The pots are 3 gallons

Quote:
Originally Posted by MynameStitch View Post
When plants are low on water and you use any type of horticultural oils it can cause this problem, because of the way they work by smothering the insect...

It's the mineral oil, because of this..... with it being thick and the plant absorbs it; it can cause clogging of the inside of the plants vascular tissue, not to mention if you got a plant that is touchy to oils.... also if used too heavily can do it too....

here is what I am talking about in more detail.

http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/co...ll/56/420/2755
I think you're absolutely right. These were clones that my friend brought from a dispensary, we put them in soil, gave them a good watering (enough to get some water dripping from the bottom of the pot), then put them under lights. I didn't want to over-water them so I was waiting until day 3 to water them, and that's when I noticed the spider mites and sprayed them with the insecticide. So, essentially, they got watered once, sat for 2 days, and then got sprayed with insecticide, so your theory makes sense. The link was very informative, although a bit hard to read! Thanks for all your advice!
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Old 02-09-2010, 05:14 AM   #8
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aloner

I'm not familiar with the specific product that you're using but what I can tell you is that I have a lot of experience in bringing products to market under the 'organic' and 'approved for organic growing' laws/regulations.

Trust me - the term 'organic' as it relates to pesticides, insecticides, PGR (plant growth regulators), etc., is a term without meaning.

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Old 08-06-2010, 10:35 AM   #9
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Eeegads!

I don't grow my own... But I do garden and I tried this exact stuff on my garden...

I used to have 16 corn stalks chest high, 18 tomato plants knee high. 20 bean plants snaking all over the place with leaves all over the walls. 16 carrots with strong green tops.

Now I have 1 corn stalk that might survive. 3 or 4 tomato plants. 5 bean plants and maybe 6 carrots...

This is day 2... for all I know I just trashed my entire freaking garden with this "organic (my ass!) crap!"
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Old 08-06-2010, 03:45 PM   #10
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Quote:
Trust me - the term 'organic' as it relates to pesticides, insecticides, PGR (plant growth regulators), etc., is a term without meaning
Yeah definately stick with omri listed. Seriously no need to spray that on anything else, go get a refund and tell them what they sell. Get some neem oil and keep it cleen like Lloyd said, it will help you alot more
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Old 08-06-2010, 05:38 PM   #11
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i use this stuff from walmart it is called ortho ecosense outdoor bug killer for ingredients it has canola oil and pyrethrins and water that is it....it worked very well for a gnat problem i had due to rockwool in a dwc system but didnt have no bad issues with this stuff...good luck!
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