Cloning Technique Form

I have seen lots of threads with people having trouble cloning, and have read through many threads, such as JJScorpio's very helpful one, in which people give their on technique.
A common comment goes something like, "cloning is inconsistent and results vary from person to person regardless of equal conditions." I find this to be misleading and not helpful. (Not trying to offend the much respected individuals that have made this type of comment.)
I'm of the opinion that what's really going on here is that cloning is, however simple, full of variables that cause this perceived inconsistency of result.

My thought is to demystify cloning by creating a form (I will do my best to make sure that it contains all variables, but please chime in if I miss something) that folks can use to fill out and give their success rates, etc. This way, cloning can become more of an exact science and we can hopefully share our techniques with each other with a little more success...

This thread can be used as the forum in which the different methods can be delineated. We can
So here's the form, it may seem overboard, but hey why not?:

Genetic Info:
Cloning Style:
Perceived Health of Mother Plant(s) (subjective):
Were Mother(s) Fed Recently? If so, what was fed?:
Were Mother(s) watered within 24 hrs?:
Medium:
Ambient Temperature:
Medium Temperature:
Humidity in Cloning Area: (If domes used, humidity within dome):
Amount (watts) and type (HPS, MH, CFL) of light used:
Hours per day light used:
Distance of lights from cuttings:
Air movement around cuttings? Fan used?:
H2O pH:
H2O PPM:
Was Root Hormone Used? Which one?:
Were Nutrients Used? Which nutrients and at what concentrations?:
Chlorine/Chloramine Present in H2O?:
Amount/Size of Bubbles (if applicable):
Sterility of Bubbles (eg bubbler filter life):
# of Nodes Above Cut:
% of Foliage Removed:
Total Length of Cutting:
Length of Cutting Submerged/Placed into Medium:
Is the Cutting Old or New Growth?:
At what angle were cuts made?:
Were cuttings re-cut under water? (air bubble prevention):
Scarification Used? What technique?:
Stem Splitting Used? How long of a split? Was this done under water?:
Were humidity domes used?:
Are clones being moistened on areas other than the stem? (eg misting or splashes from bubble cloner on foliage):
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What Cutting Implement was used?:
How often was cutting implement cleaned during cutting process? (eg Every 10 cuttings):
What cleaning agent was used on cutting implement? (eg 91% Iso Alcohol):
Did you wash your hands before cutting began? Throughout the process?:
Have you handled the cuttings since placement in medium? If so, describe and give frequency of handling.:
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# Days (subjective) before transplant is possible:
Total Number Clones Taken:
Total Number Clones Survived:
% Survival Rate:
Yellowing of leaves at transplant time? How much?:
Necrosis (dead plant material) at transplant time? How much?:

Other Relevant Info:

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That's about all I can come up with right now. Please post your techniques and results in this format and we can hopefully garner some awesome info and make cloning less stressful for the newbies and hell everyone else!

Peace on all you mawfuckaz.

Instructions for cloning are easy:

Do some research. Find what works for you. Stick to it

Remember: what works for you or friends, may not work for you or your friends.

-Q

Why would what works for me not work for someone else, given that they used the same exact methods and conditions?
Now if, for instance, vermiculite or rockwool or rapid rooters are unavailable to somone, these methods will obviously not work for them, but that's not the point here.

But I'm with you on the rest of the comment!

ItsAllOver said:

Why would what works for me not work for someone else, given that they used the same exact methods and conditions?

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Because cloning, like germination, is just one of those things where a successful method for one person, might not work for another. That's why I find it best for people to learn about the process and what they're asking from the plant and try a few methods until they find one that works for them, their schedule, their environment, and their budget.

It's not rocket science and too many people give up after trying one method because of what you just stated:

Man! I hate cloning. I tried all the steps that growerX posted and I get 0% success every time. I just can't clone these plants!

Click to expand...

They could purchase every product, practice and copy every step, and it just might not work for them. That's just how it is. I can't explain it, but I've seen it happen too many times with others to not throw it out there as an educated observation.

I've baby-stepped many people through many various cloning methods. In the end, they rarely end up using the same method that I do. My cloning method works practically 100% of the time... for me. But: it doesn't work for everyone.

-Q

Quazi, the only explanation for someone "using your technique, which is successful for you, to a t, but failing nonetheless" is that they are not using your technique to a t. That's it. You said in your last post that you can't explain it, but that is the explanation. This is a part of the scientific method in that an experimental or technique must be sufficiently documented as to allow other experimenters to replicate the technique or experiment.

My point of this thread was to be helpful in creating a way for people to more accurately and consistently replicate the methods of others so that they can have success. Without good enough direction, folks will not be able to replicate another individual's successful technique, and this is what I think is lacking in the existing literature about cloning on this site. In addition, I think this accounts for many, if not all, of the failures documented on this site and in my experience. This phenomena is only perpetuated when people start this, "results are different for everybody even given identical setups" business. That is simply not true. Failure or success is based on a consideration of and catering to important variables. Now of course there are many methods that will produce success, but this does not negate the point.

Now, the form above may be overly anal in some ways (lol, indeed) and deficient in others, but over time it can be adjusted to account for all of the important variables and none of the unnecessary ones.

We all know one thing, cloning these plants is possible. Now we need to figure out exactly what conditions are important to encouraging survival (and failure!) in our cuttings. It is not different just because one person is named GrowerX and one is named GrowerY. There are important variables in play here, and I think many are being ignored in favor of the "cloning is voodoo" explanation. (again not trying to be directly disrespectful even though this is an obvious reference)

I want to bring these variables to light.

So let the games begin?

ItsAllOver said:

I'm of the opinion that what's really going on here is that cloning is, however simple, full of variables that cause this perceived inconsistency of result.

Click to expand...

Agreed 100%.

ItsAllOver said:

Why would what works for me not work for someone else, given that they used the same exact methods and conditions?

Click to expand...

Because cloning is Voodoo. Is that hyperbole? Sure, the point was to encourage the grower and let him know his "failure" doesn't make him an incompetent boob.

Used "correctly" my bubbler has a 600% failure rate, it's killed everything I put in it. Used "incorrectly", I've never lost a cut. To use the bubbler "correctly" under those circumstances is insane.

Many here will tell you need 90% RH or more and that domes are required. I say domes are death incarnate and 15% RH is more than enough. Thing is, we both have the roots to prove our points. So I'm sticking to my story, cloning is Voodoo.

Not to be mean but, some one who claims a 60% success rate, no familiarity with bubblers and throws clones to the slaughter like the men on D-Day hitting the beach, may not be the best choice to run a definitive clone guide.

check out my thread in the hydro board about tissue culture propagation. it may be worth checking into.

Freezerboy, I tried hard to make sure you wouldn't be offended by what I said, but the fact is this one is not about experience with every cloning technique in the book. It is simply about understanding that there are often variables that go unnoticed, and that these are often the things that lead to success or failure. You say, "domes kill all, but others say they work well, it must be voodoo." I say, "you are using domes, which otherwise can work well, but you are doing something else that is killing your clones and you are attributing domes to the poor survival rate." Prove me wrong. You can't, because you are overlooking variables.

So if you want to make it seem as if I am no good for "running a definitive clone guide," that's fine. (That is not my intention, BTW. My intention is to let you and everyone else do it. I just started it because I think it is important. Without success in cloning, many of us are going no where.)

Just tell me why the things I listed in that form above are not sufficient. (that's what I was looking for, after all) Is it because you don't believe in the ability to replicate experiments regardless of the availability of equipment and environmental controls? Because that's the only thing that could lead you to this assumption of voodoo-like results. (there are better ways to make people feel ok about their failure, btw. Just try simply saying, "try again and change up your variables." Trust me, this is much more important in life than telling somebody that they failed because things are just weird like that...) Me, I don't believe in voodoo. I do, however, believe that with the proper attention to certain details, success can be achieved by anyone.

The reason that I started this thread is to get the whole community's input. If all of the successful cloners carefully examine their techniques, taking all aspects into consideration, we can spread this knowledge to the rest of the folks that are currently failing because they are missing out on important things.

I feel like a broken record...

OK, I just have to say, on a somewhat unrelated note, that I'm surprised in the (however limited) response that this thread has received.
I'm trying to help people be more successful in their cloning by taking into account all the variables that are important (and I'm not claiming to know them all, that's why I said that about 3 times in my first post!), and I'm getting shit on.
In addition, I'm surprised that in the context of marijuana growing, one that is taken to the extremes of science in some cases (and why not?), so many people will attribute to the supernatural or voodoo that which can be attributed to plain and simple aspects of technique.

I expect this kind of madness in a conversation about religion, but not here...
And hey, just to show I mean no ill will, I respect the shit out of what you do (FB and Quazi), we are just having an argument. No need to resort to slamming each other on unrelated issues. And my cloning record, as limited as your knowledge is of it, is surely unrelated in a forum in which I am looking for other people's experience.

Peace

Thanks, bdomina. Would that technique fit well into the context of my form above? If so, please fill it out. If not, explain why, and maybe we can tweak it to account for that technique. It's something I've only recently been introduced to, but my interest is piqued.

BTW, Freezerboy, could you document what you have proven to be the "correct" and "incorrect" way of using a bubbler, and your results with them? (BTW 600% failure! That's terrible! ) Then maybe we can figure out what is different and our definitions of what is "correct" and "incorrect" will change!

FreezerBoy said:

Because cloning is Voodoo.

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There is a lot of truth to that. You can not follow someone else and expect the same results. I've let people copy my bubble cloner in my own home and it has worked like crap for them once they took it home. I can't explain why. I have used other methods with very poor results even though people with much more experience than me have had great results. Pick a method and practice.

ItsAllOver: while I can appreciate what you're doing and trying to say, I have to tell you that my initial reply to this topic was exactly what FreezerBoy said:

Cloning is voodoo.

Click to expand...

I had it typed out and everything -- but felt a better explanation was needed. Once you've had enough experience helping yourself and others to various cloning methods, you'll probably come to a similar conclusion.

Sure there are hundreds (if not thousands) of variables that go into successful cloning. It's the same as growing though: you can't fill out a form or follow a formula and expect success. Sure, you might get plants in the end, but you need to find what's best for you.

Your best bet, when it comes to cloning (and growing for that matter) cannabis, is to understand what you're doing from a biological and horticultural level. Once you have this base knowledge, you can try out some different methods and find something that works for you.

The point, that I think is escaping you at the moment is this: even if we came up with the best responses ever to your form, you could still give the form with clear and concise instructions to someone and it won't work for them. Why? Science says that if something is demonstratable, repeatable, and verifiable, that it should or should not work based on those merits.

Science also says a bumble bee shouldn't be able to fly.

ItsAllOver said:

Quazi, the only explanation for someone "using your technique, which is successful for you, to a t, but failing nonetheless" is that they are not using your technique to a t. That's it.

Click to expand...

I was there helping them cut the clones and insert the clones into the same medium and use the same technique. We live on the same water system. I even helped them setup a similar cloning area to mimic the environment (literally within a few watts and 1 degree of temperature). I checked with this person daily to make sure they were following my instructions (they were having a particularly hard time with cloning). It wasn't a lack of instruction or demonstration/explanation, it just wouldn't work for them. We built them a little bubble cloner and they've had 100% success since then. I don't use a bubble cloner or own one but this isn't the first that I've helped someone make one.

Voodoo.

-Q

gomer said:

I've let people copy my bubble cloner in my own home and it has worked like crap for them once they took it home. I can't explain why.

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Key part of that quote? "I can't explain why." They had different environmental conditions. I have apparently made it my mission, if you all would help, to figure out exactly what those environmental conditions are. Phew, it's hard to get a point across.

gomer said:

Pick a method and practice.

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Now this, I agree with! Now we must define practice. Practicing is doing something over and over, changing your technique as you do it and perfecting it. This is exactly what I'm talking about. If your friends had taken the cloner home and practiced replicating your tech, they would have gotten it. Period.

Quazi said:

Your best bet, when it comes to cloning (and growing for that matter) cannabis, is to understand what you're doing from a biological and horticultural level. Once you have this base knowledge, you can try out some different methods and find something that works for you.

Click to expand...

This is exactly what this thread is all about, lol.

Quazi said:

The point, that I think is escaping you at the moment is this: even if we came up with the best responses ever to your form, you could still give the form with clear and concise instructions to someone and it won't work for them.

Click to expand...

There are not necessarily any "best" answers, only ones that work. And many answers do even though they are different. Water, coco, rockwool, verm. They all work. I can attest to that personally, and I suppose you can, too. The only difference is that I say that each one works for particular reasons related to moisture availability to the plant, concentrations of certain hormones, light availability, etc, and you say... voodoo. But somehow you also say the things I do. It's strange.

Quazi said:

Science also says a bumble bee shouldn't be able to fly.

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No, science just doesn't know how bumblebees fly... yet. We all exist in reality, man. Even bumblebees. It's not voodoo. It's called "I don't know." (yet)

Edit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumblebee
Look at the Myths section.

ItsAllOver said:

No, science just doesn't know how bumblebees fly... yet. We all exist in reality, man. Even bumblebees. It's not voodoo. It's called "I don't know." (yet)

Click to expand...

So... you're allowed to say, "I don't know" but you berate us for stating that we don't know why people's cloning methods fail?

Edit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumblebee
Look at the Myths section.

Click to expand...

Awesome. I understand that scientists have discovered this. It was an analogy used in the context of the argument and quite possibly a bad or outdated one, I admit.

Voodoo is voodoo though man, and science and its methods just can't cover everything no matter how hard we try.

If you have the drive, though: more power to ya We're just trying to help set you up for realistic expectations.

-Q

I do have the drive! lol I want to see the community as a whole benefit from a more scientific approach to cloning.

Now will you go through and fill in the info? (or at least help me to make the form a better on that includes more variables?) Or are you only willing to help in the context of what you've already tried and labeled as voodoo hehe? (this is a joke, no hard feelings!)

I have said time and again that "I don't know" is a perfectly good answer. (Just check the "Does God Exist?" thread. Oh man, I think I'm done with that one.) I haven't berated anyone. You are saying "voodoo", not "I don't know"! They are different. However you should not use "I don't know" as a cop out to stop trying. I haven't. Labeling something as voodoo is saying "I don't know, and can never know," which could be untrue. Anyway, I'd argue that you and FB both know more than I do about cloning. No question there...

So... what if through use of a scientifically developed form of some kind, we realize that there is some variable that is causing FB's death upon use of a dome and your friend's death using your technique almost to a t? (you said same system, same water, but his humidity, watering schedule, airflow might have been different. He might have been pulling the clones out to check them for roots every 5 minutes and disturbing their growth, he might have a carbon monoxide leak in his house causing poor growth. Shit who knows.)
Would it not be worth having individuals fill out a form to determine the truth? My point is that cloning may have many variables, but if we concisely and at least somewhat definitively list them and try to figure out which ones are important to causing success and failure, we can eliminate failure at least to that degree.
This is not voodoo. If 2x2/2=2, but you say it =4, I can tell that something went wrong in the math. It is not voodoo. Cloning is no different, it's just got more variables. We just have to figure out the arithmetic.

Is it just lots of experience watching people fail and trying extremely hard to fix it that has led you to believe in the voodoo hypothesis?

BTW, I just saw this same technique of form filling applied to E&F tables. It seemed to be very enlightening to those following it.
No form can encompass all variables in a subject as complex as cloning, but we can at least give it a shot. It hasn't been done in this way before, has it? Now granted we need a lot of participants, but that is the point of ICMag! We are here to cooperate with one another in a way in which we can learn what's best given a large pool of experience! Let's get organized!

Voodoo is voodoo. Who know the voodoo, you do?

I do not know why voodoo is voodoo.

Offer many solutions... I guess that's the best we can do

-Q

I personally think a lot of people simply fuck up somewhere in the process and that's why they get bad results.

actually science does know how bumblebees fly. it was all just a myth that they couldnt.
science explains it all - again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumblebee#Flight