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Old 06-20-2018, 02:45 AM #1091
Phaeton
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Wink

Just playing with the fact that exceptions exist in all models, don't get me started on quantum mechanics.

The long wave radiation that is absorbed by greenhouse gasses is on a vector to head out into space when it is absorbed. The shorter wave re emission radiates spherically. In the physical world this puts half the absorbed energy roughly on its original path into space while the other half of the energy is re directed back to its source.


Theoretically, up to one and a half times the heat currently retained from the sun could be kept as a temperature rise.
Ouch.

Most greenhouse gas is water vapor, but that vapor is walking the razor's edge and CO2 or methane can trip it up.

Bad word choice, "CO2 or methane ARE tripping it up."
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Old 06-20-2018, 04:26 PM #1092
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Enthalpy...
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Old 06-20-2018, 05:15 PM #1093
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Solar wind signatures throughout the high latitude atmosphere


P. Francia
M. Regi
M. De Lauretis
First published: 10 June 2018
https://doi.org/10.1029/2018JA025411

Abstract

A series of studies during the last decade have shown clear evidence of solar‐wind‐related periodicities in the variations of different parameters of the lower (troposphere/stratosphere) and upper (thermosphere/ionosphere) atmosphere, over the high latitude regions. This commentary is prompted by a recent study of the fluctuations of neutral density, winds and temperatures near 90 km, which provides evidence of such a solar‐wind‐related response in the mesosphere as well. It is timely to point out to the wider geophysical community that solar wind responses at different altitudes strongly indicate that the whole atmospheric column has a response to solar wind high‐speed streams, something that few atmospheric scientists would have anticipated 10 years ago. Reviews of the wider body of work in this research field, however, conclude that different processes of solar wind‐atmosphere coupling dominate at different altitudes, and there remain unanswered questions about some of the details of these mechanisms, and their relative importance. We therefore suggest that the studies considered here could usefully be extended in their methodology in order to constrain the mechanisms involved, rather than just identifying the solar wind driver. One example would be to examine time delays between the input, i.e. the solar wind variations, and the response at different altitudes; another is to look for latitudinal variations in the amplitude of effects.


https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley....9/2018JA025411


open article by posting url [ https://doi.org/10.1029/2018JA025411 ]into the search function here: https://sci-hub.tw/


c'mon joe, i didn't say you didn't believe in convection, you were saying radiation excluded conduction and convection...
also the top of the atmosphere does lose heat to space from enthalpy or there would be no life on the 3rd rock from the sun.
the several atmospheres are as much insulation as sink from the electromagnetic radiation the sun produces.


from wiki: The troposphere is denser than all its overlying atmospheric layers because a larger atmospheric weight sits on top of the troposphere and causes it to be most severely compressed. Fifty percent of the total mass of the atmosphere is located in the lower 5.6 km (18,000 ft) of the troposphere.
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Old 06-20-2018, 08:24 PM #1094
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In Defense of the Term “Greenouse Effect”

May 9th, 2018



Over the years I have gone along with the crowd and derided the term “greenhouse effect” as a poor analogy between the atmosphere’s ability to keep the Earth’s surfce warmer than it would be without IR-absorbing (and thus IR-emitting) gases, versus a greenhouse in which plants are grown.


But the more I think about it, the more I realize that “greenhouse effect” is a pretty accurate term.


The main objection has been that the warmth within a real greenhouse is primarily due to the roof’s ability to keep warm air from escaping, thus inhibiting convective heat loss. While that is true, it is also true of the atmospheric greenhouse effect.


Remember,
1) the roof of the greenhouse is also an IR absorber and emitter, like water vapor and CO2 do in the free atmosphere, and
2) the atmospheric greenhouse effect is only fully realized in the absence of convective heat loss.


Let’s start with that second point. As originally calculated by Manabe and Strickler (1964, see slide #10 here), the greenhouse effect does not explain the average surface temperature being 288 K (observed) rather than 255K (the effective radiating temperature of the Earth absent an atmosphere). Instead it is actually much more powerful than that, and would raise the temperature to an estimated 343 K (close to 160 deg. F.) It is convective heat loss generated by an unstable lapse rate caused by the greenhouse effect that reduces the temperature to the observed value.


This is the actual “greenhouse effect” on Earth’s average surface temperature: not the oft-quoted 33 deg. C, but more like 88 deg. C of warming. (We can quibble about the calculations of surface temperature with and without greenhouse gases because they make unrealistic assumptions about clouds and water vapor.)



The point is, the atmospheric greenouse effect is radiative only, and does not include the cooling effects of convective heat transport away from the Earth’s surface.


Kind of like in a real greenhouse.


So, this actually is what happens in a real greenhouse:
1) sunlight warms the interior
2) infrared radiation absorbed and emitted by the roof reduces radiative energy loss by the air and surfaces within the greenhouse
3) convective heat loss is minimized (although it is generated on the outside surface of the roof, thus keeping the interior cooler than if there was no convective heat loss at all)


So, all things considered, I think we need to embrace the “greenhouse effect” concept. Plants like it so much, we artificially enhance Nature’s greenhouse effect (which existed before greenhouses were invented) for their benefit.



Next, let’s pump some extra CO2 in there to help the plants even more.


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Old 07-19-2018, 12:09 AM #1095
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the sleepy days of summer, and the thread has dosed
the latest interesting news from up at the roof of the world
the arctic melt season has been drifting along at slow pace in july, which has been less common these days
the reason seems to be smoke, i.e. wood smoke like you smell at your outdoor cook outs
seems Siberia has been burning, a lot, but don't worry
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Old 07-20-2018, 03:16 AM #1096
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Wink

Frost last night, 28 degrees, July 19.
I surely do enjoy the warmer winters, my area gained about twenty five degrees over the last 50 winters.
The summers have lost almost ten degrees, and considering how often our summers were borderline anyway it gives us more days under 32 and fewer days over 80.

But hey, when it is -5 and the normal is -48 the cooler summer is not so bad anymore. I can take a day of frost quite easily.
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Old 07-20-2018, 05:48 AM #1097
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^^^ It's all in your imagination apparently.
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Old 07-21-2018, 10:29 PM #1098
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i didn't imagine this...






the temperature at the north pole today is -.5 Celsius.
that is below freezing.
Greenland has been getting snow, middle of July...


imagine that...


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