Register ICMag Forum Menu Features Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
You are viewing our:
in:
Forums > Marijuana Growing > Indoor Grows - Hydro > Something wicked this way comes

Thread Title Search
Click for great deals at MB Ferts
Post Reply
Something wicked this way comes Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-04-2017, 05:36 PM #21
DunHav`nFun
Member

DunHav`nFun's Avatar

Join Date: May 2014
Location: In my head
Posts: 660
DunHav`nFun has much to be proud ofDunHav`nFun has much to be proud ofDunHav`nFun has much to be proud ofDunHav`nFun has much to be proud ofDunHav`nFun has much to be proud ofDunHav`nFun has much to be proud ofDunHav`nFun has much to be proud ofDunHav`nFun has much to be proud ofDunHav`nFun has much to be proud ofDunHav`nFun has much to be proud ofDunHav`nFun has much to be proud of
1 question D9 bro....The open rez pic with the 2 float valves set at "X" inches above floor elevation....

Is that tank what sets solution level on every container in the room?....IOW....I see where all the other totes are daisy-chained together with all feed AND drain lines on rez/pump containers as well as the plant rez containers at floor level , and it made my old ass go hmmmm......if so...

Even though you`ll be moving 224 gals per day , you`ll only be doing it 1 quart every 15 mins/1 gal per hr/24 gals per day per plant container , and the "SLO-MO-DRO" movement keeps solution level from rising and dropping to any extent from said "slow solution movement" ?....anyways....

Just tryin to wrap my pore `ol head around the expansion of the system as well as the overhead DE fixtures compared to bare bulbs hangin....time will tell , and.....

I see no reason why a lower ppm regimen across the board wouldn`t support 1st week transplants in a perpetual staggered planting process....regardless...

Thanks for your time , knowledge , and hands on experience....

Peace...DHF.........
__________________
Knowledge is power.....Adapt or perish....
DunHav`nFun is offline Quote


4 members found this post helpful.
Old 01-04-2017, 08:25 PM #22
delta9nxs
No Jive Productions

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,337
delta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to behold
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by DunHav`nFun View Post
1 question D9 bro....The open rez pic with the 2 float valves set at "X" inches above floor elevation....

Is that tank what sets solution level on every container in the room?....IOW....I see where all the other totes are daisy-chained together with all feed AND drain lines on rez/pump containers as well as the plant rez containers at floor level , and it made my old ass go hmmmm......if so...

Even though you`ll be moving 224 gals per day , you`ll only be doing it 1 quart every 15 mins/1 gal per hr/24 gals per day per plant container , and the "SLO-MO-DRO" movement keeps solution level from rising and dropping to any extent from said "slow solution movement" ?....anyways....

Just tryin to wrap my pore `ol head around the expansion of the system as well as the overhead DE fixtures compared to bare bulbs hangin....time will tell , and.....

I see no reason why a lower ppm regimen across the board wouldn`t support 1st week transplants in a perpetual staggered planting process....regardless...

Thanks for your time , knowledge , and hands on experience....

Peace...DHF.........
hey fred! good to hear from you! i hope you had a good time over the holidays!

what you're looking at is two adjacent rooms that are part of a storage unit complex. the slab is pretty level.

the float tank does control the levels throughout the building. it is close to the center between the two rooms.

in at least one photo above you will see a bucket lid under the plant module on some sites. we use those to achieve equal water levels where necessary.

my actual delivery rate is 1/2 gal every 90 minutes with this medium. the duration of the event is 30 seconds.

so each side of the building is controlled by one repeat cycle timer. in full operation they will be staggered so that they go off 45 minutes apart.

when the pumps fire the supply buckets are delivering 1/2 gal to each site bringing the water level down in the supply buckets approx 1.4 inches.

and the plant/drain side is raised by the approx same amount.

gravity the does the work of leveling the system.

we only have the veg side operating right now with 12 sites but it will achieve equlibrium in less than 10 minutes after firing.

have a good 'un!
delta9nxs is offline Quote


2 members found this post helpful.
Old 01-05-2017, 05:50 PM #23
DunHav`nFun
Member

DunHav`nFun's Avatar

Join Date: May 2014
Location: In my head
Posts: 660
DunHav`nFun has much to be proud ofDunHav`nFun has much to be proud ofDunHav`nFun has much to be proud ofDunHav`nFun has much to be proud ofDunHav`nFun has much to be proud ofDunHav`nFun has much to be proud ofDunHav`nFun has much to be proud ofDunHav`nFun has much to be proud ofDunHav`nFun has much to be proud ofDunHav`nFun has much to be proud ofDunHav`nFun has much to be proud of
Well.....I guess the old saying "water will seek it`s own level" holds true.....if all containers are daisy chained together that is....and yeah...

I saw the 1 container with the lid underneath , and your slab`s good and level if that`s what`s being used as a shim ....btw....

What is the height level of solution on all your containers bro....aight....

I`l be over here on my bucket watchin and learnin....

Peace....Freds.........
__________________
Knowledge is power.....Adapt or perish....
DunHav`nFun is offline Quote


1 members found this post helpful.
Old 01-05-2017, 06:50 PM #24
delta9nxs
No Jive Productions

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,337
delta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to behold
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by DunHav`nFun View Post
Well.....I guess the old saying "water will seek it`s own level" holds true.....if all containers are daisy chained together that is....and yeah...

I saw the 1 container with the lid underneath , and your slab`s good and level if that`s what`s being used as a shim ....btw....

What is the height level of solution on all your containers bro....aight....

I`l be over here on my bucket watchin and learnin....

Peace....Freds.........
the bucket lids i use give about a 3/8" lift. some sites in the flower room have 1 or 2 but most have none.

but we have made this work on 4% grade floors before.

the operating water level is 7" giving me a 4" air gap in these 3.5 gal buckets. the total water volume of the circulating system with both rooms fully loaded will be about 300 gals.

i've got 9 55 gal drums feeding that. this whole complex has 1 hose bib and i'm about 175' from it so with 9 drums i don't have to pull the friggin' hose out and refill everyday.

most grow methods i've tried before were very labor intensive. i've tried to design everything in such a way as to minimize that.

using a perpetual schedule all labor events are broken up into a series of small, manageable episodes that can be performed by 1 or 2 people.

we won't have the harvest scene where a gang of folks have to come over and work intensely for a week or two. i will harvest 1 or 2 plants a week, depending on strains.

i may not even be selling trimmed flowers. the concentrate scene out here has evolved to the point where perhaps i can sell whole fresh flowers. or whole dried flowers. no fans, no stem but that's it for trimming.

i rarely smoke bud any more personally. dabs and pens for the most part. easier on the old lungs.

but i do miss the warm and fuzzy feeling of slowly smoking a bowl of fine flower in my old savinelli "rhodesian" briar that the ronin swine stole from me.
delta9nxs is offline Quote


2 members found this post helpful.
Old 01-05-2017, 11:50 PM #25
p5150
Newbie

Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 19
p5150 is on a distinguished road
Delta, first of all hello my name is Jerry, and secondly, thank you for sharing your knowledge!
To my question... your set up has two buckets per site (source w/pump), and (plant station w/drain)... are these separate for maintanance reasons??? in other words couldn't there be one station with pump underneath????.... not tryin to cheap out!!! just tryin to fully understand system.
The other question I have is could you please elaborate on "the air gap" i,ve been reading as many threads as i can find and i still have not grasped that one
p5150 is offline Quote


1 members found this post helpful.
Old 01-06-2017, 03:42 AM #26
delta9nxs
No Jive Productions

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,337
delta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to behold
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by p5150 View Post
Delta, first of all hello my name is Jerry, and secondly, thank you for sharing your knowledge!
To my question... your set up has two buckets per site (source w/pump), and (plant station w/drain)... are these separate for maintanance reasons??? in other words couldn't there be one station with pump underneath????.... not tryin to cheap out!!! just tryin to fully understand system.
The other question I have is could you please elaborate on "the air gap" i,ve been reading as many threads as i can find and i still have not grasped that one
hi jerry! welcome! wow, you're a real turbo poster! 2 posts in 8 yrs? at that rate you will be able to pm in only 192 more yrs!

well, a simple straightforward answer is that, depending on how big a plant you want to grow, if the pump is in the same chamber as the plant and you have a pump failure just getting to it could be a nightmare.

i've had 8-10' diameter plants being supported by metal fencing that you can't remove without damaging the plant, planted in turface that, when wet, weighs 70 lbs. it becomes a major project just to get to it.

with smaller plants it may not be much of a problem.

that's just the maintenance side of it.

but also, if the pump is in the same container as the plant you will only be moving solution from bottom to top and back to bottom at that plant site only.

if it is at least connected to a central reservoir controlled by a float valve it will be fed in one direction replacing water lost to transpiration and evaporation but the solution will not be circulated.

this makes homogenizing the solution between multiple plant sites virtually impossible. they will all read ec and ph differently.

the method i have shown above not only feeds the plant it's attached to but also positively displaces water through the system in a linear fashion, creating circulation through a central reservoir.

this allows the solution to homogenize ec and ph between multiple plant sites as well as getting a dose of fresh nutrients and water.

you need to monitor ec and ph in order to steer the solution. but in the ppk it is not a critical process that must be performed on a rigorous schedule.

once or twice a week is frequent enough.

if you had multiple sites with a pump in each separate plant container you would have to take readings at each one of them.

and then you would have much more difficulty correcting than if the solution were homogenized.

i don't know how many plant sites you will have but if it is going to be a small number then a single pump in a central reservoir may be the way to go.

i hope this helps! i will have to answer the "air gap" question later.
delta9nxs is offline Quote


Old 01-06-2017, 09:05 AM #27
p5150
Newbie

Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 19
p5150 is on a distinguished road
thank you for the in depth answer!! makes total sense. I will patiently await your enlightenment on my other question,
p5150 is offline Quote


1 members found this post helpful.
Old 01-06-2017, 01:54 PM #28
Mr Blah
Member

Mr Blah's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 691
Mr Blah has a spectacular aura aboutMr Blah has a spectacular aura aboutMr Blah has a spectacular aura aboutMr Blah has a spectacular aura aboutMr Blah has a spectacular aura about
Had an idea that I am going to throw out there about the P5150, one bucket thing.
What if you had one control bucket with a herd of 12/? bucket sites to go with it.
What if you piggy backed each site with a small pump under each site (like P5150 mentioned) but feeding the next site and so forth until the end, which that one would feed the control bucket to complete the circulation issue?

Like I said it is just an idea. Maybe all ready thought of..?


Actually editing my own post with a problem with my own thought.....Like D9 mentioned it is going to be hard to get to for maintenance or pump issues.
Mr Blah is offline Quote


1 members found this post helpful.
Old 01-06-2017, 06:24 PM #29
delta9nxs
No Jive Productions

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,337
delta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to behold
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by p5150 View Post
thank you for the in depth answer!! makes total sense. I will patiently await your enlightenment on my other question,
to understand the need for an "air gap" we first must understand the "perched water table".

growing in containers is fundamentally different than growing in the open soil column.

in the field, water applied to the surface around a plant continues through and past the root system leaving it well aerated. in other words water is not trapped in the root zone in a solid layer.

in a container there is formed after every watering event a layer of solid water at the bottom of the pot.

the height of the perched water table (pwt) is determined by the particle size of the medium. the finer the particle the larger the pwt.

this layer of water occurs because the forces of cohesion (waters attraction to itself) and adhesion (waters attraction to other substances) are holding water in the container against the force of gravity.

this layer of "solid" water" contains no air.

in a conventional container it can only be eliminated by transpiration and evaporation.

the gravitational flow potential (gfp) rapidly drains a freshly watered container down to the point where the pwt forms but no further leaving the roots sitting in a pool of water.

this is fine for short periods as the water will contain some dissolved oxygen.

but a fast growing plant can consume the o2 content rapidly leaving the roots sitting in an anaerobic solution.

this is where anerobic bacteria thrive and root rot begins.

i also feel that it sends some type of hormonal signal to slow plant growth for survival.

all of this is why you can't water a conventional pot until it nearly dries out.

but what if we had a way to mechanically drain the pwt immediately after each watering event?

this is where the ppk "tailpiece" comes in.

since the pwt will exist at the same height regardless of container shape or size we can move it down into the tailpiece greatly reducing it's size and therefore it's negative effect on the plant.

assuming these feed tub containers are a uniform 18" in diameter cylinder for math purposes and assuming a 1.5" pwt which is about average for most media, 3.1416 x radius 9" sq = 254.47 cu in x height of pwt 1.5" = 381.70 cu in divided by the number of cu in in a gal 231 we get 1.65 gals or 211.2 oz's of saturated medium retained in the container.

by moving the pwt into the "tailpiece" the volume of the pwt is reduced radically.

in a 3" cylinder the same math shows 1.5"x1.5" = 2.25 x 3.1416 = 7.06 x height of pwt 1.5" = 10.60 divided by 231 = 0.0459 of a gallon or 5.87 oz's of saturated medium.

by moving the pwt into the tailpiece we have reduced the pwt by 97.2 %. and therefore it's negative hormonal feedback by, hopefully, the same amount.

this is where the "air gap" comes in.

the pwt will exist on top of the water level in the tailpiece

if there were no air gap and water were to totally fill the tailpiece below each plant the pwt will still fully exist in the root zone.

by adding an air gap of at least 1.5" we can move the pwt into the tailpiece completely.

since water in a container is not evenly distributed but graded by gravity there is a moisture distribution curve. drier at the top and wetter at the bottom.

with only a 1.5" air gap the bottom of the medium will still be too wet because of capillary rise.

by tuning the air gap we can adjust the moisture distribution curve in the root zone.

with most media an air gap of about 4" plus or minus an inch not only removes the pwt from the plant container but tunes the moisture content of the medium.

in the ppk we can totally control moisture content by using 3 tools.

the duration of each watering event, the interval between watering events, and the air gap, tuning the distribution curve in the root zone between events.

the root zone is an interface between roots, water, air, and nutrients. the more time during the life of the plant that this interface is kept in an ideal state the larger and heavier the plant will be.

the little graphic below depicts the pwt existing at the same height no matter the container shape or size. it is particle size that determines the height of the pwt.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	perched water table 1.jpg
Views:	69
Size:	34.7 KB
ID:	391293
delta9nxs is offline Quote


6 members found this post helpful.
Old 01-06-2017, 06:42 PM #30
delta9nxs
No Jive Productions

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,337
delta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to beholddelta9nxs is a splendid one to behold
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Blah View Post
Had an idea that I am going to throw out there about the P5150, one bucket thing.
What if you had one control bucket with a herd of 12/? bucket sites to go with it.
What if you piggy backed each site with a small pump under each site (like P5150 mentioned) but feeding the next site and so forth until the end, which that one would feed the control bucket to complete the circulation issue?

Like I said it is just an idea. Maybe all ready thought of..?


Actually editing my own post with a problem with my own thought.....Like D9 mentioned it is going to be hard to get to for maintenance or pump issues.
we have done exactly that, pump in one and halo on another to try to homogenize the solution but as you pointed out we still had trapped pumps.
delta9nxs is offline Quote


Post Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:38 AM.


Click for great deals at MB Ferts!


This site is for educational and entertainment purposes only.
You must be of legal age to view ICmag and participate here.
All postings are the responsibility of their authors.
Powered by: vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.