Lucas Formula Newbie (DWC)

Mistadobalina · Jun 15, 2009

Strain: White Widow
LightCycle: 18/6
Lamps: 4' T5 flouros
Medium: Hydroton/Coco
Hydro: 15 gal recirculating DWC w/ Aquarium Chiller.
Rez Temps: 60-64*F
Water: RO
Nutes: GH Micro/Bloom floura.
Formula: Lucas 0-5-10
pH: 5.5-5.7
Ambient temps 73-84

This is the first time i've tried the Lucas Formula before. I'm starting to wonder though if i'm doing something wrong. I'm noticing the leaves on this clone are curling up at the edges, and small lime-green blotches are forming. Also what appears to be some Cal def. My second guess is this is Nute burn from going full strength 0-5-10 right off the bat with this clone.

As far as the PPM goes, i have no clue exactly where i'm at because my PPM meter seems to be completely off. Even though the nutestrength is at 0-5-10, my ppm meter (cheap truncheon knock off) is reading 400. Is it safe to assume with the 0-5-10 ratio that the PPM should be at 1200? (for the record i have a bluelabs Truncheon on its way in the mail.) I've always thought that 1200PPM sounded way too high for a young clone, but people say all over the net that the ratio works.

Any advice you can give to make sure i dont kill this clone would be greatly appreciated!! I've had a few successful grows in the past using Sensi 2 part AN nutes + calmag, but ultimately i really want to switch up to the Lucas Formula.

Mistadobalina · Jun 15, 2009

How long has this problem been going on? 1 week
Are you growing in a PVC grow tent? no, but there is an HTG supply grow tent nearby. I've been told HTGsupply is safe.
What system are you running? DWC
What STRAIN are you growing? White Widow
What was the establishing technique? Clone
What is the age of your plants? 2 weeks
How long have they been in there mixture they are in now? 1 week
How tall are the plants? 5"
What PHASE are the plants in? Vegetative
What Technique are you using? Scrog/pruning for flat canopy
What substrate/medium are you using? coco+perlite cup + hydroton
What is the Water temperature? 60-65F
What color are your roots? White
What Nutrient's are you using? GH Flora Lucas Formula 0-5-10
How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? 5ml micro per gal + 10 ml bloom per gal
How often are you feeding? DWC...
How often are you giving nutrients? DWC...
What order are you mixing your nutrients? Micro nutes first, then Bloom
What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using? (not 100% sure yet. See post above)
What is the pH of the "Tank"? 5.5 - 5.7
Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equiptment? Yes on pH, no on PPM. (see post above) I assume near 1200 based on 0-5-10 Lucas Formula.
When was your last feeding change? 1 week ago
How often do you clean your system: 1 week ago
What size bulb are you using? 4' T5 flouros
What is the distance to the canopy? 3"
What is your RH Factor(Relative Humidity)? 45%
What is the canopy temperature?
What is the Day/Night Temp? Day 75-80 Night 60-70
What is the current Air Flow? Carbon scrubber, not exhaust though. Just scrubbing and pushing it back into the room. There are multiple air intakes in the room.
Is the fan blowing directly at plants? no
Is your water HARD or SOFT? Hard
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)
Are you using water from a water softener? No
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched. Yes, Pruned because the clone was very leggy when i got it, so i cut it down 2 nodes and pruned the very very bottom branches.
Have any pest chemicals been used? no
Are plant's infected with pest's? No, i see some very small thrip damage though. Fairly sure i stopped that though.

VenturaHwy · Jun 17, 2009

Your light is too close, raise it up a foot...

BirdDawg · Jun 17, 2009

I'm confused - the GH Floronova nutes are only bloom and grow. The regular flora series is micro, grow and bloom. We use the 3 part. If they are in veg, you should be using GH Grow, micro and bloom, or if floronova, then grow and bloom. If you're mixing ingredients from both series, could be off balance.
1200 is too high for clones until they are well established. We use about half the recommended seedling amounts for clones, keep ppm at about 400 and gradually raise as plants become better established.
pH 5.5 -5.7 may be too low. Bloom lowers pH. This may correct itself when you swap out bloom for grow. We've found ideal pH in our DWC is 6-6.5

Mistadobalina · Jun 17, 2009

My mistake, i'm using the 3 part flora series. However when you say, "If they are in veg, you should be using GH Grow, micro and bloom" I cant say i'm following you... The lucas formula splits up nutrient ratios into 3 sections

0-5-10 where 0 = how many ml of grow you use per gallon , 5=ml micro per gal, 10=ml bloom per gal.

Are you actually using the lucas formula?

I also found this, so here's an aproximation of where you can assume my nutes are at

TDS @ 0.5 conversion:
0-5-10 = 592 ppm

TDS @ 0.7 conversion:
0-5-10 = 829 ppm

hanz.progress · Jun 17, 2009

nice strain

)

FreezerBoy · Jun 18, 2009

VenturaHwy said:
Your light is too close, raise it up a foot...

If he was using multiple 1Ks, sure. But tubes?

While 0-5-10 may be a bit strong, I doubt it would burn you. The only thing I see "wrong" is you haven't returned to the solution the trace elements you removed through the use of RO. GH specifically leaves out several elements which we are expected to add with tap water. They even have a hard water formula which is double extra lacking. I'd look into some Cal-Mag or similar.

whodi · Jun 18, 2009

try FB's advice.

I don't beleive it is over ferting with 5/10 either.

Also, if you think the lights are too close then move them up as well.

If I overfert the leaves always curl under and become hard.

Cozy Amnesia · Jun 18, 2009

It looks like stress from something...not a deficiency. Is there any reason they'd be stressed? Like suddenly dropping the pH?

BTW, are you a Del fan? :smoke:

Mistadobalina · Jun 18, 2009

Cozy Amnesia said:
It looks like stress from something...not a deficiency. Is there any reason they'd be stressed? Like suddenly dropping the pH?

BTW, are you a Del fan?

Fuck yeah i'm a del fan. His old shit is soooo classic, using samples from Parliament Funkadelic and shit. wooo! But back to business... Yeah the one thing i can think of that could have stressed them out is that the clone was somewhat neglected when i got it, and super stretched out/leggy. I pruned it down 2 nodes because i plan on Scrogging it. plus there was a day or two that i didn't have my pH completely under control. I think it got down to 5.3 for about 12 hours or so. I've noticed this plant is doing better now with a ph closer to 5.8 than 5.6. It seems to be doing better but the yellowing between leaves is gradually getting worse. I'm not seeing any more necrosis showing up yet. Hopefully you're right and it was just stress.

p.s.
I'm writin' this, right now under the influence
But if you'd just torch those that say I shouldn't do this
Bob Marley'd out, at least 'til I'm back by the lake
But I might roll 1 or 2 for old times sake...

If he was using multiple 1Ks, sure. But tubes?

While 0-5-10 may be a bit strong, I doubt it would burn you. The only thing I see "wrong" is you haven't returned to the solution the trace elements you removed through the use of RO. GH specifically leaves out several elements which we are expected to add with tap water. They even have a hard water formula which is double extra lacking. I'd look into some Cal-Mag or similar.

The Lucas guide i have says,
"The lucas formula is normally intended for use with RO or near 0 PPM water.

NOTE: The Lucas formula eliminates the need for Epsom salts to correct
(Magnesium) Mg deficiencies in most normal feeding programs
recommended by manufacturers. Cannabis needs a lot of Magnesium to
thrive.

The Flora Micro is providing the Nitrogen and the Magnesium in the
proper balance, thus there is no need for the Grow formula and little
or no room under the maximum acceptable ppm limit of 1600 @ 0.7
conversion."

Maybe i'm just being overcautious and they are just stressed from the pruning/12 hour pH fuckup.. but i've always struggled with cal/mag deficiencies even when i was using CalMg (before i switched to lucas).

Mistadobalina · Jun 18, 2009

whodi said:
try FB's advice.

I don't beleive it is over ferting with 5/10 either.

Also, if you think the lights are too close then move them up as well.

If I overfert the leaves always curl under and become hard.

yeah definitely not at all worried about those T5 lights being too close. I've practically layed them on top of plants before and not had a single light burn happen unless they actually touched the bulb itself. T5's run very cool and disperse light evenly. I only do 1 plant at a time but i pull 8-9 oz's off one plant with 2 T5's for veg, and when i flip to flower, i hang my T5's sideways with a 400W hps above the cannopy: Long story short, i'm sick of the guesswork of buying expensive nutes/additives if i truly can just use Micro/Bloom to do the same shit.

MOD Dreamgoddess

hanz.progress · Jun 18, 2009

WOW NICE BUDS! it is finish?

Mistadobalina · Jun 18, 2009

yeah that was i think 10 days from finish last grow. I didn't use the lucas formula with that last grow though.

10k · Jun 19, 2009

Cal/mag isn't really necessary in most common gh flora mixes, although some could use just a bit more mag. If you find your plants looking for more mg, you can add 1/8th to 1/4th teaspoon epsom salts per gallon of final lucas mix. This will provide plenty of mg for any mag hog strain. They look kinda pale too imho.

Why are you running coco in with your rocks in dwc ?

Did you get your new truncheon stick yet btw ?

Mistadobalina · Jun 19, 2009

smokinshogun said:
Wow, that is a nice plant (the second one of course) and I especially like how the lights are setup...So the only thing you changed this time around was the nutrients??

Umm I was also a little confused about your medium choice, it might not be related to the problem, but why not just use the rocks? The perlite probably doesn't matter, but why add coco? I've just never been a fan of that stuff or rockwool, not 'clean' enough for me I suppose.

I agree that there is probably enough cal+mag but I kinda want to say you should lower the ph to make them more available, despite what you have said about things looking worse during those 12 hours? I may be completely wrong on this due to the coco and limited experience, but it seems like mag. has a 'dead spot' around 5.7-5.8 and even cal. is dropping off at that point. Roots (in water) uptake pretty much every nutrient best at 5.2-5.3 it appears. The whole coco thing confuses me though, but Im pretty sure most of your roots are in the actual water, right? Hope you get it under control, that large plant is making me want to change me SOG setup, but at least all my buds aren't in one basket...

Damn 5.2-5.3 ? I always read that wouldn't be good for CalMg... Here's a handy little graph that i found in the past. I honestly dont know how tried-n'-true this graph is but its interesting nonetheless.

As far as my medium goes... I normally go straight hydroton into the netpot, but this clone was given to me in a Coco-pot already.. I didn't really wanna deal with that mess of tearing it open. hah

Mistadobalina · Jun 19, 2009

10k said:
Cal/mag isn't really necessary in most common gh flora mixes, although some could use just a bit more mag. If you find your plants looking for more mg, you can add 1/8th to 1/4th teaspoon epsom salts per gallon of final lucas mix. This will provide plenty of mg for any mag hog strain. They look kinda pale too imho.

Why are you running coco in with your rocks in dwc ?

Did you get your new truncheon stick yet btw ?

Hey 10k. I'll try ou tthat epsom salt addition to my lucas mix. I just upped the pH just now to 5.9 hoping i'll hit a better sweet spot for Mg uptake.. new Truncheon is in the mail right now. can't wait for it to show up though! i bought a knock-off truncheon a few years ago and realized once i saw that my tds for 0-5-10 should have read about 7-800ppm, i realized i have no idea how i didn't kill plants in the past haha! i was bringing the ppm with Sensi 2 part Advanced Nutes up to like 1200 by the meter, which could have been closer to 16-1700. :yoinks:

10k · Jun 20, 2009

Thanks smokinshogun, the chart you posted is the better chart. That square bar chart is very misleading and imho, the cause of many hydro growers having mg defs. 5.8 IS the weakest point for mg uptake.
Heres that thread you mentioned re explaining lucas mix gh ratio and my input on chem salts mixing / solution damage pH range etc
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=124122

mistadobalina, I liked your lower 5.5 to 5.7 better than the 5.9. You might find it greening up a bit more in an even lower range but be gradual lowering pH, a little at a time to avoid pH shock. 5.2 input allowing it to drift up is optimum ime w/ chem salts like gh. Once you get the stick I think you'll also find that you can soon bump up to a 0-6-12 ratio if it isn't causing any tip burn. click that link.

I too am also concerned about you having the coco in your dwc netcup. I hope there's not a lot in the netcup and that you can flush the coco thoroughly once the roots are hanging down (w/ air gap) into the buckets

Mistadobalina · Jun 20, 2009

10k said:
Thanks smokinshogun, the chart you posted is the better chart. That square bar chart is very misleading and imho, the cause of many hydro growers having mg defs. 5.8 IS the weakest point for mg uptake.
Heres that thread you mentioned re explaining lucas mix gh ratio and my input on chem salts mixing / solution damage pH range etc
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=124122

mistadobalina, I liked your lower 5.5 to 5.7 better than the 5.9. You might find it greening up a bit more in an even lower range but be gradual lowering pH, a little at a time to avoid pH shock. 5.2 input allowing it to drift up is optimum ime w/ chem salts like gh. Once you get the stick I think you'll also find that you can soon bump up to a 0-6-12 ratio if it isn't causing any tip burn. click that link.

I too am also concerned about you having the coco in your dwc netcup. I hope there's not a lot in the netcup and that you can flush the coco thoroughly once the roots are hanging down (w/ air gap) into the buckets

I'll lower it.. i agree entirely that the first graph was wrong. I'd never seen the other graph until now but it makes sense that if pH fluctuates logarithmically, so would nutrient uptakes. Good work on posting that Smokinggun.

About the coco in my dwc.. do you think its really dangerous? because of risk of root-rot? or what?? its not fully submerged but it is staying saturated.. :yoinks:

which makes me wonder if its actually straight up absorbing my salts!? shit i dont know what to do now that the roots are all bathing in the solution. I guess i could always bring it in my shower and high pressure wash as much of the coco out as possible. Do you think the net pot is as dangerous as the coco/perlite mix is?

p.s. here's my other thread, similar topic
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=125819

Mistadobalina · Jun 20, 2009

I'll post more photos tonight. So far things are looking good, though i'm seeing small deficiencies popping up still.. I'm starting to think that i can avoid dealing with the coco shit and just leave it alone as long as i drop the water level so the coco is no longer soaking up water/nutes. If it drys out and the roots start chasing for the rez.. then we dont have to worry about the coco right? but yes you have it right.. i put about 1 inch of hydroton in the bottom of the net pot, then put the cocopot inside and packed hydroton all around it. so its not really directly in the solution. I'll post pics and gradually drop the pH if you guys say so. I gotta say though i noticed the leaves were twisting when the pH dropped down to 5.3 last time.

Mistadobalina · Jun 28, 2009

Dropping the pH to 5.3 wasn't a good idea.. I brought it back up to 5.6-5.8 because all the new growth is mutated, twisted and afaik not even growing anymore.

I haven't seen any growth on these maristems for 2 days now.

I did up the ppm a bit.. i brought it up to 1000 (EC x 700) now that i have my truncheon meter. Now i'm wondering if 1000ppm was too much? it was at 600ppm...

/me thinks this strain is a giant p.i.t.a.

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