Triacontanol Products

Sylvester1 said:

Our lab has run a variety of products on gas chromatograph, and many of these label claims are simply not true. Alfalfa certainly has triacontanol in it. The samples of Boost we ran were positive for triacontanol as well.

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Show and tell! Saying something is nice, but showing something is better!

EclipseFour20 said:

Show and tell! Saying something is nice, but showing something is better!

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That student graduated in spring; I haven't heard from them since then, and I don't have the data.

Triacontanol only dissolves in water with detergents, and in solvents like chloroform and ethanol. Most manufacturers don't want to use the non-aqueous solvents, so if it claims triacontanol and it doesn't foam (REALLY foam) when you shake it, be skeptical. Detergent suds don't guarantee triacontanol, but it's a good hint.

Now, whether the stuff really works or not is another matter entirely.

Sylvester1 said:

That student graduated in spring; I haven't heard from them since then, and I don't have the data.

Triacontanol only dissolves in water with detergents, and in solvents like chloroform and ethanol. Most manufacturers don't want to use the non-aqueous solvents, so if it claims triacontanol and it doesn't foam (REALLY foam) when you shake it, be skeptical. Detergent suds don't guarantee triacontanol, but it's a good hint.

Now, whether the stuff really works or not is another matter entirely.

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Whether it works or not? Really?

Sylvester1 said:

That student graduated in spring; I haven't heard from them since then, and I don't have the data.

Triacontanol only dissolves in water with detergents, and in solvents like chloroform and ethanol. Most manufacturers don't want to use the non-aqueous solvents, so if it claims triacontanol and it doesn't foam (REALLY foam) when you shake it, be skeptical. Detergent suds don't guarantee triacontanol, but it's a good hint.

Now, whether the stuff really works or not is another matter entirely.

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Castings vague assertions on everything but alf meal & boost, then hand-waving that the data's not avail to identify what's what is... um... kinda weak, don't ya think?

Tria solubility usually requires solvents or strong emuslifiers, as prev pointed out [by milkyjoe]... but, as milkyjoe conjectured [and as confirmed by the SunJay product] tria can be enzymatically processed to make it water soluble, too...

And, perhaps citrus terpenes could serve as a non-hazardous solvent for solubilizing tria, too...

Try to keep up.

Sylvester1 said:

Our lab has run a variety of products on gas chromatograph, and many of these label claims are simply not true. Alfalfa certainly has triacontanol in it. The samples of Boost we ran were positive for triacontanol as well.

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Sylvester1 said:

That student graduated in spring; I haven't heard from them since then, and I don't have the data.

Triacontanol only dissolves in water with detergents, and in solvents like chloroform and ethanol. Most manufacturers don't want to use the non-aqueous solvents, so if it claims triacontanol and it doesn't foam (REALLY foam) when you shake it, be skeptical. Detergent suds don't guarantee triacontanol, but it's a good hint.

Now, whether the stuff really works or not is another matter entirely.

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Sorry, the impression I had when you said, "Our lab has run a variety of products on gas chromatograph, and many of these label claims are simply not true."---that was based on real analysis...not a student project, LOL! Like you were part of "professional team"...working in a "professional lab". My bad.

Dude, "hearsay" info is worthless...IMHO, it is worse than "bad information". Of course if you prefaced your comments with "IMHO", then we would all know where you were coming from.

Opinions are to be respected. Facts are to be challenged/tested/verified....student projects are seldom "definitive" (not all students earn "A's" on their work--some "fail").

BigBozat said:

Castings vague assertions on everything but alf meal & boost, then hand-waving that the data's not avail to identify what's what is... um... kinda weak, don't ya think?

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You had questions concerning SuperThrive and two other products. I was alluding to the inability of SuperThrive (among others) to foam.

BigBozat said:

Tria solubility usually requires solvents or strong emuslifiers, as prev pointed out [by milkyjoe]... but, as milkyjoe conjectured [and as confirmed by the SunJay product] tria can be enzymatically processed to make it water soluble, too...

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You are conflating an enzymatic process for extraction (as described on SunJay's website: "Unique 2 in 1 combination plant growth promoter with Triacontanol from Beeswax & Liquid Seaweed - Extracted by unique Enzymatic process," in which they do not specify whether they are extracting beeswax or seaweed enzymatically) with solubility.

Triacontanol is a C30 wax; its solubility will not be changed through enzymatic processes without changing its intrinsic chemical properties. A hydrocarbon backbone of that length is not made soluble in that fashion. This is a persistent theme in the history of triacontanol as demonstrated in the literature and the patent history: its sparing solubility does not make it amenable to administration in aqueous solution.

That makes sense.

How about adressing the it may not work comment. I have personally seen no difference. I use alfafa for the protein content. hard to find non gmo protein anymore.

And while you are here. Can chitosan be made from chitin by an enzymatic process? And is there any chance in hell you could stop that process from going beyond chitosan once you start it?

milkyjoe said:

How about adressing the it may not work comment. I have personally seen no difference. I use alfafa for the protein content. hard to find non gmo protein anymore.

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You are not alone. Triacontanol has a long history of disappointing and erratic results. I can't get into too much detail as the client who paid for the work wouldn't be happy.

However, I would suggest the following.

An experiment in which these conditions were satisfied would be most useful; however, most growers are either unable or unwilling to do so:

1) Use a product containing only triacontanol and the bare components to solubilize it. Triacontanol is reported to be active at nanomolar concentrations by Ries, who discovered it. This is only marginally more than the solubility of the pure compound, so little help is needed.

2) Apply to several crops. Do so in a double-blind fashion.

3) Collect data; analyze it, then repeat the experiment as a crossover trial.

Simply put, running serialized experiments in which a multicomponent formula is applied will yield unsatisfactory results: you will be unable to isolate the benefits of a single component. Running experiments in parallel is required for true statistical significance.

milkyjoe said:

And while you are here. Can chitosan be made from chitin by an enzymatic process? And is there any chance in hell you could stop that process from going beyond chitosan once you start it?

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Not really my field, but my take on it is that chitin is easily produced from chitosan using sodium hydroxide; there is no need for enzymes, but perhaps someone uses them. The chitin is stable at high pH so the reaction so far as I know stops there. United States Patent 4195175 goes into detail.

All reputable studies have concluded...too much Triacontanol--no bueno, not enough Triacontanol--no bueno, but the right amount--"kiss my grits!".

As in most things "less is best" cuz you can always add a bit more tomorrow...but you can never remove tomorrow---the excess you put in today.

IMHO, a good rule is to start off with 1/3 to 1/2 the suggested dosage if your grow medium is dialed in (pH, CEC, air porosity, water holding capacity, particle size, etc). Me, I incorporate Triacontanol 3 different ways: Grow medium ingredient (alfalfa meal--6oz/cu ft), water soluble root feeding (JumpStart--5ml/gal) and foliar feed (JumpStart prior to flower formation--1.25ml/gal, Canna Boost after formation--10ml/gal).

In my world, any greater amount is too much....now, the million dollar question is---have I hit the sweet spot? Probably not...but I do like the current results. First time I have been told, my "buds are too big"...lol. Which I replied, "I can cut them in half with my paper cutter"....LOL. The change? JumpStart.

BTW...I noticed in my notes that the formulator said some people got great results with JumpStart using as little as 1ml/gal...others jacked it up to 7.5ml/gal. I know, big range--but I guess it depends on the grow medium, indoor/outdoor, and what other inputs you are using. Too much of anything is nasty....except sex. LOL

Another great discussion. Valuable information for sure. And genuine respect to Raw_Dog for admitting he was wrong. (That was a great surprise, as I was just bumming a bit about the endless arguing that happens on these forums.) Raw_Dog's is an example we all need to follow here. JMO. We can all sometimes be led to believe something that isn't true, and we should all help each other think twice about our beliefs.

Anyway. I'm pretty sure that BioBizz BioHeaven has tria in it. We were discussing the similarities between it and Canna's BioBoost the other day. BioHeaven definitely works; not sure how much tria plays into that success, tho, as I can't find out the ingredients anywhere. That can be really frustrating when trying to avoid product overlap.

Is it possible to extract triacontanol out of beeswax all by yourself, like DIY?
I'm a beekeeper and I have tons of wax.

BTW...a bit more about Canna Boost--

"In CANNABOOST, the oligosaccharide polymer is one of the important elements, with the specific group of oligosaccharides of interest coming from the breakdown of the plant cell as well as the fermenting microorganism cells into specific length and form carbohydrates.

This is accomplished through a very long fermentation process where the plant is first rendered into a thick substance with a high saccharide content that also contains many other components including vitamins, proteins, amino acids, and many minerals; this is known as a molasses soluble.

Then the fermentation process begins that reduces the simple sugars into ethanol, which is removed, and the remaining components are converted into what becomes CANNABOOST, a specific mixture of oligo- and polysaccharides, amino acids, proteins, other polymers, and other compounds. The process is a very long term process involving many steps with the correct sets of microorganisms to arrive with exactly the right product over and over again. It is neither an easy nor an inexpensive process."

Source: http://www.cannagardening.com/cannaboost_a_real_boost?page=0,1

So reading that, do you suppose they're fermenting alfalfa and then filtering out the solids then boiling off the ethanol?

Seems like you would still end up with a waxy product that doesn't play well with water after the ethanol is gone.

Fermentation and extraction, that part I understand...(just like making wine/beer) and microbes, that too I understand. But how much, when and for how long...ahhh, that is what separates the "men from the boys". Way beyond my pay grade!

So...with my spray setup (low velocity low pressure paint sprayer) I can spray about 60 plants with a gallon of foliar spray. So, 10 ml of Canna Boost each week...for 1 year is about half a liter of Boost. Just purchased 250 ml of Boost for $28...or about $56 per year. Not being silly, but time is precious and I think spending half a day fucking around with an alfalfa brew to save $56 a year is not a wise use of my time.

That said...I am a person that has "more time than money"...."I squeak when I walk"...."frugality is a way of life", I rather purchase a product that is consistent (guaranteed analysis) so my end product is consistently great! Much easier to get across the finish line...with maximum benjamins!

There is truth in that old saying, GIGO (garbage in garbage out).

EclipseFour20 said:

Fermentation and extraction, that part I understand...(just like making wine/beer) and microbes, that too I understand. But how much, when and for how long...ahhh, that is what separates the "men from the boys". Way beyond my pay grade!

So...with my spray setup (low velocity low pressure paint sprayer) I can spray about 60 plants with a gallon of foliar spray. So, 10 ml of Canna Boost each week...for 1 year is about half a liter of Boost. Just purchased 250 ml of Boost for $28...or about $56 per year. Not being silly, but time is precious and I think spending half a day fucking around with an alfalfa brew to save $56 a year is not a wise use of my time.

That said...I am a person that has "more time than money"...."I squeak when I walk"...."frugality is a way of life", I rather purchase a product that is consistent (guaranteed analysis) so my end product is consistently great! Much easier to get across the finish line...with maximum benjamins!

There is truth in that old saying, GIGO (garbage in garbage out).

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I recently started making my own triacontanol spray, it's very easy and at the rate I apply it costs me around 5 cents per gallon of 25ppm spray (high end of standard dosing). Might be something to look into if 50 bucks a year is too much.

Vitazyme has Tria and brassinosteriod in it. im loving the growth its having on my plants right now in veg.i had been looking for brassinosteriod on ebay and found some powder stuff of it but didnt trust the saler so when i found Vitazyme i was happy bc it had tria & brass along with a slew of other good things and is OMRI listed. check the pics in my journal post #328 https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=305363&page=22

Here is the link to all the things in Vitazyme. i got it off ebay for 18$ for 8oz and the useage rate is only .5 tsp per gallon.

Here are some active ingredients in Vitazyme (all derived from natural materials):

* 1-triacontanol...................................................................0.17 mg/ml

* Brassinosteroids (homobrassinolide,
homodolicholide, dolicholide, brassinone).......................0.03 mg/ml

* Kinetin............................................................................. < 1 mg/ml

* Gibberellic acid..............................................................0.13 mg/ml

* Indoleacetic acid.............................................................. < 1 mg/ml

* Biotin.............................................................................0.006 mg/lb

* Folic acid.......................................................................0.007 mg/lb

* Niacin............................................................................0.077 mg/lb

* Pantothenic acid..............................................................0.13 mg/lb

* Vitamin B1 (thiamin)......................................................2.03 mg/lb

* Vitamin B2 (riboflavin).................................................0.078 mg/lb

* Vitamin B6........................................................................1.2 mg/lb

* Vitamin B12 (cobalamine)...........................................0.0015 mg/lb

* Glycosides

* Glucans

* Various enzymes

* Brassinosteroids, called “a growth regulator of the 21st Century”, are effective at extremely low concentrations. At the standard 13 oz/acre (1 liter/ha) application rate, 30 mg/ha are applied, which is well within the accepted active range of 20 to 50 mg/ha. Effects on plants include: greater seed germination, increased crop yield, improved flowering, enhanced stress tolerance (temperature extremes, salinity, drought, and pesticides), increased leaf chlorophyll and photosynthesis.

* Triacontanol is a well-researched compound found in relative abundance in Vitazyme, at about 0.17 mg/ml. It can activate plant growth when applied at extremely low concentrations, less than 1 mg/ha. Effects on plants include: improved seedling growth, increased chlorophyll and photosynthesis, enhanced dry matter accumulation, increased crop yield.

http://vitalgrowdistribution.com/ingredients.html

Bump for a very informative thread.

http://www.triplantanol.com/triaboost.html

HAvent used the product as I am still in the research phase, just thought I'd throw something in the mix. For anybody who's following the tria conversation there's an active thread over in the advanced forum.

EclipseFour20 said:

hmmmmm add Canna Boost to the list (best as a foliar spray of course)--the label does not give any clues, but I believe the consensus of most peeps...is that does contain tria.

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I've used it don't get me wrong but WOW

That's expensive ,we have a new product over here (UK) that is cheaper ,stronger and in my opinion better I've seen my yeilds improve and run a side by side in soil

It's called shogun sumo boost, I am nothing to do with the company ,I'm just offering my opinion

I've read this thread from page 1

I've had mixed results with the atami bloombastic

Also I've got an addiction to flashy colourful stickers on bottles so believe me when I'm saying I've tried a fair few products

I picked up a bottle of the Grow More jumpstart and I noticed immediate improvements. could have to do with the extra Iron, though, IDK.
Everything in there was already green and healthy, but they seem to be spreading out their leaves more and taking in more water.
I used a foliar spray at 1.25ml/gallon 3 or 4 days ago and have been using 1.25ml/gallon in their feed solution as well. My only complaint is the stuff smells like a dog treat..like beggin strips or something
At this rate the 20 dollar quart will last me a loong time