Commercial outdoor organic soil mixes for 2016

TheOutlawTree said:

I'm not sure what the yard charges for mixing but my guess is 40$ a yard or so?

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fuck no thats way too much, shouldnt be more than a few bucks per yard. i think i paid $2.50 last year

MuricanWeedwolf said:

Actually Pine wood chips (PWC) have equivalent porosity too, which means they also hold water like perlite too. It also improves the permeability of water through a soil much like perlite does. Is there anything else perlite does?

Some believe it kills earthworms. I don't know that there is proof.

As far as the nitrogen issue goes, it is minor. Simply feed the detritivores; either mix in about 10% extra N fert in hot soil or use a full time feeding schedule (no breaks/flushing) during veg. The N tie up shouldn't be an issue during flowering but you might want to use a foliar if you're doing heavy defoliation (or just defoliate properly).

How did you arrive at 10%? I have doubts that it is that simple. People bury whole logs for moisture retention and soil warmth but the surface area of the log or twigs is small. If you incorporate a bunch of chips there is much more surface area to initiate decomp and N use.

Just be sure to correct pH, if necessary. My soil guy adds some lime to his mix but not everyone will.

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There are three other growers on this site with more experience that would advise not to use wood chips like this.

A little bit of google digging turned up a study where ornamental flowers were grown in pure pine chips vs a peat based mix. The pine chip mix is doable but you need 100ppm more N than the peat based mix. Most growers (including myself) don't have to add such high amount of N all the way through the grow like that. Furthermore, the N math would change for different types of soil or wood. I guess what I'm saying is that I agree it is possible, but is it pragmatic?

orechron said:

There are three other growers on this site with more experience that would advise not to use wood chips like this.

A little bit of google digging turned up a study where ornamental flowers were grown in pure pine chips vs a peat based mix. The pine chip mix is doable but you need 100ppm more N than the peat based mix. Most growers (including myself) don't have to add such high amount of N all the way through the grow like that. Furthermore, the N math would change for different types of soil or wood. I guess what I'm saying is that I agree it is possible, but is it pragmatic?

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orechron said:

There are three other growers on this site with more experience that would advise not to use wood chips like this.

A little bit of google digging turned up a study where ornamental flowers were grown in pure pine chips vs a peat based mix. The pine chip mix is doable but you need 100ppm more N than the peat based mix. Most growers (including myself) don't have to add such high amount of N all the way through the grow like that. Furthermore, the N math would change for different types of soil or wood. I guess what I'm saying is that I agree it is possible, but is it pragmatic?

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fair enough, but "ornamental flowers" is pretty vague.

Check out this study from NCSU with french marigolds (Tagetes erecta). Both mixes were peat-based; only perlite and wood chips were compared.

One of their experiments tested growth rates at varying applications of lime. Despite the fact that French marigolds prefer a neutral pH, they achieved higher growth rates in a mix of 80% peat and 20% screened pine wood chips than in a equivalent mix of peat and perlite.

The difference between 100 ppm and 200 ppm N is just 0.1 ml/L N or 2.5 ml/L (9.5 ml/gal) 4-X-X fertiliser. Since I pay less than $.01 per mL for my organic veg liquid fert, this adds up to a whopping extra $0.29 per week per plant in veg, or around $1.50 per plant per crop. Totally worth it IMHO since my soil mix costs less than half what any bagged mix does, made with 100% plant based compost and worm castings

Mr Weedwolf, do you reuse your potting soil? How many grows til the wood chips break down? What is drainage like once it does break down?

weedWolf,


How much soil do you mix by hand on average?

MuricanWeedwolf said:

fair enough, but "ornamental flowers" is pretty vague.

Check out this study from NCSU with french marigolds (Tagetes erecta). Both mixes were peat-based; only perlite and wood chips were compared.

One of their experiments tested growth rates at varying applications of lime. Despite the fact that French marigolds prefer a neutral pH, they achieved higher growth rates in a mix of 80% peat and 20% screened pine wood chips than in a equivalent mix of peat and perlite.

The difference between 100 ppm and 200 ppm N is just 0.1 ml/L N or 2.5 ml/L (9.5 ml/gal) 4-X-X fertiliser. Since I pay less than $.01 per mL for my organic veg liquid fert, this adds up to a whopping extra $0.29 per week per plant in veg, or around $1.50 per plant per crop. Totally worth it IMHO since my soil mix costs less than half what any bagged mix does, made with 100% plant based compost and worm castings

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It is vague, but I'm not trying to point out differences in poinsettias or marigolds. I think the N demand may be higher with cannabis considering a lot of people using the commercial mixes are growing trees not 1 ft plants. N cost is less important to me than what I'm doing to the soil, how much can potentially get in the ground water, what effect I'm having on diversity, etc.

I'd like to see a grow like you suggest and a good experiment. Pictures would be great, soil and tissue samples would be better.

N is absolutely the last thing i worry about except for compost. IOW, i don;t intentionally add any N

sure, i use some amendments such {neem, crab meal & alfalfa} that bring N to the table. But i use such tiny amounts that N is insignificant

focus on minerals ~the last cycle, i added only neem of those 3 {once i saw some fruit flies & fungus gnats hanging out ~still tiny amounts} & i typically only use the alfalfa w/ kelp in a foliar

something about measuring N by PPM seems like a gargantuan waste of time money & effort

If you look at the work of nova crop control the amount of nitrate in the sap vs protein is the single biggest indicator of plant health. You do not want nitrate to be over 1/2 the total N.

So maybe ppm N in the soil isn't the biggest deal. But getting it into the plant as a metabolite vs nitrate or converting nitrate to peptide/protein in the sap is a big deal if you are committed to no cides

I would fear wood chips might drive nitrate production...although I do not know that for a fact. Long term wise, say in compost, it eventually breaks down to organic through microbes...but short term???

i've heard ramial chipped wood being suggested as an aeration amendment. i'd be wary of pine living in a pine dominated region & knowing canna doesn't do well in pine forests unless you bring in some soil

milkyjoe said:

Mr Weedwolf, do you reuse your potting soil? How many grows til the wood chips break down? What is drainage like once it does break down?

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Kinda. We vermicompost the used soil and roots with ground up stems and leaves plus other plant matter. We re-use some of this for tea and top dressing, but the rest goes into a nearby vegetable garden (which also feeds the compost). After composting there are a few noticeable chips in the mix, but hardly any. It's more like regular compost at this point.

To be clear the wood chips in our soil mix have gone through a 1/2" screen, so they are fairly small.

orechron said:

It is vague, but I'm not trying to point out differences in poinsettias or marigolds. I think the N demand may be higher with cannabis considering a lot of people using the commercial mixes are growing trees not 1 ft plants. N cost is less important to me than what I'm doing to the soil, how much can potentially get in the ground water, what effect I'm having on diversity, etc.

I'd like to see a grow like you suggest and a good experiment. Pictures would be great, soil and tissue samples would be better.

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Sure thing,here are my girls just a day or two into bloom (almost a week ago as I type), just after they were tied down. These clones vegged in the soil for 4 weeks, so they are about 30 days old in this pic. They're under 1000w HPS lamps but I'm stuck with some really crappy hoods though, you can literally see the shadow on the plants directly under the light on the left side of the pic and the walls! You may be able to tell I've got zero runoff. So far, so good:

orechron said:

It is vague, but I'm not trying to point out differences in poinsettias or marigolds. I think the N demand may be higher with cannabis considering a lot of people using the commercial mixes are growing trees not 1 ft plants. N cost is less important to me than what I'm doing to the soil, how much can potentially get in the ground water, what effect I'm having on diversity, etc.

I'd like to see a grow like you suggest and a good experiment. Pictures would be great, soil and tissue samples would be better.

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I will get yield data and lab testing info on THC and CBD

Here the girls are a week later

xmobotx said:

having used both products, i get the impression the bu's blend is simply screened finer. They both bring the humic quality and will "wake up" your mix

what we really need is analysis to make certain we aren't radically boosting K levels like many commercial humic products do

leadsled is that just a sample of OMFC?

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yes that is the oly mountain.

Stopped up to the soil yard today that will be mixing my dirt. They have the following compost's available priced per yard

Oly Fish Compost- 114.99
Malibu Compost- 297.50
Stutzman chicken manure- 121
Diestel Compost- 111.99 (NOT IN STOCK UNTIL SPRING)
New ERA Compost- 112.00
Mushroom Compost- 37.99
Chicken Compost- 47.99
Farmers Favorite Compost- 67.99
Carolyns Mix Compost- 43.99
Alaskan Humus Compost- 241.00

WORM CASTINGS per yard-
'Bulk', didnt know the brand- 202.00
Heritage Castings- 354.00
Roots Organics Big Worm- 700.00

I got samples of all 3 worm casting's and will send them in to logan today or tomorow.

I was told that logan's tests were already done on all the compost's, and I'm supposed to get an email with all the results, hopefully sooner than later. Ill share the results when they come in. I have a feeling the workers didnt know for sure if everything was tested, and i may have to go back up there to get more samples.

Bulk orders receive 15-20% off, so thats nice to know. I am not pleased with their prices on peat moss, they want 180$ per yard of their bulk peat, and 995$ for Dakota peat brand compressed in 6 yard bundles. I cant help but wonder if they made a mistake on that pricing, thats crazy. I was quoted 6,220.08 for ~106 yards or (36) 55 cubic foot bundles of Alaska Peat brand peat from B.C - and that's delivered. That quote was back in December though, and i know prices can change throughout the year. I asked the yard if I could just have the Alaska peat delivered there, so they could just use it... I think they will work with me on this, i have to confirm with the owner though. I would like to keep this mix as cheap as possible, preferably between 120-180$

As of now... Im thinking I would like to start with a modified cootz style mix like Schrews did- But I want to get the K balanced to albrecht as close as possible. I want to try a mix with less compost than the standard 33% - more like 10% compost, 5-10% castings, and the remaining 13-18% topsoil. I suppose this will depend on the results i see on the castings, and various composts that are available.

Next up i will post the mix shcrews got mixed up at the same yard and i believe he said it was around 150$ a yard- But like i said, i want K balanced as close as possible, and it was never tested. Should i plan on making small 1 yard batches at the yard of different mixes for more testing? I suppose that's the only way to know for sure? Schrews- Have you tested your pots from last year yet? Get on it bud, lets collaborate and help each other out- your ordering more dirt right?

40 Yards total-
12 yards 5/16" lava rock
12 Yards Peat Moss
10 Yards Oly mountain fish compost
2 Yards Malibu compost

240 Lbs Kelp meal
220 Lbs Crab meal
260 Lbs Gypsum
240 Lbs Oyster Flour
120 Lbs Neem Meal
100 Lbs Alfalfa meal
1,000 Lbs Glacial Rock Dust

Yes I'm ordering more dirt, am very interested in all this, thanks for sharing. I Will send in samples on Friday and have them by next week probably. I used fruit growers lab last yr, but seems everyone is using Logan lab now. Should I use FGL again for consistency or use Logan so the results will be more comparable to yours? Or both

The coots mix test results I have posted on Icmag are from my 2014 coots mix which had the amendments cut in half, and chicken compost. In 2015 I used full amendments and Oly Mtn fish compost. Haven't got the 2015 dirt tested yet

My mix last yr was 125/yard. Trucking was almost a grand

Schrews- Im not sure if you should use logan's or FGL... I figured the pro's may be able to learn something from the tests and tell us what it may mean. My opinion isnt super qualified but if i were you i would use logan because its real fast to get results back.

To milky, orechron, leadsled, essentail and everyone else- You fella's keep mentioning how 'light' the standard 1/3 compost, 1/3 aeration / 1/3 peat mixes are. I have talked with other people here in cali that say the same thing. Its the first thing out of there mouth when i show them schrews mix from last year. I dont want a 'light' mix, and i dont want anything real heavy obviously, there must be something in the middle ey? Should i use less peat, or less aeration when adding the clay based topsoil? How much less? I still need to source a clay based topsoil. My pad is almost pure clay, what about just throwing a wheelbarrow of pure clay and mixing in each pot, instead of worrying about using less aeration or peat.

Milky- you wrote about the importance of knowing how much N is in nitrate form, and Lbs of elements per yard- from the Penn states compost test. How long do their test's typically take, before they get back to you? I was going to send the 3 casting samples in to penn state, but decided last minute to go with logans because its always 3-5 days for me and its 1/2 the price. As far as the other test's the yard is supposed to have for me from logans labs on their different compost's- Should i spend the $ on my own penn state tests (for some of them), or should i just save the test money for all the samples ill have to send in for the mixes we come up with / guessing in the next couple weeks?

I'm a little disappointed in myself for slacking off the last couple weeks. I was really hoping to have my mix figured out by the end of this month, and dirt delivered in mid march so i could start getting them into their pots and applying tea's / further testing. So much work to do this spring its stressful to think about.

TheOutlawTree said:

Schrews- Im not sure if you should use logan's or FGL... I figured the pro's may be able to learn something from the tests and tell us what it may mean. My opinion isnt super qualified but if i were you i would use logan because its real fast to get results back.

To milky, orechron, leadsled, essentail and everyone else- You fella's keep mentioning how 'light' the standard 1/3 compost, 1/3 aeration / 1/3 peat mixes are. I have talked with other people here in cali that say the same thing. Its the first thing out of there mouth when i show them schrews mix from last year. I dont want a 'light' mix, and i dont want anything real heavy obviously, there must be something in the middle ey? Should i use less peat, or less aeration when adding the clay based topsoil? How much less? I still need to source a clay based topsoil. My pad is almost pure clay, what about just throwing a wheelbarrow of pure clay and mixing in each pot, instead of worrying about using less aeration or peat.

Milky- you wrote about the importance of knowing how much N is in nitrate form, and Lbs of elements per yard- from the Penn states compost test. How long do their test's typically take, before they get back to you? I was going to send the 3 casting samples in to penn state, but decided last minute to go with logans because its always 3-5 days for me and its 1/2 the price. As far as the other test's the yard is supposed to have for me from logans labs on their different compost's- Should i spend the $ on my own penn state tests (for some of them), or should i just save the test money for all the samples ill have to send in for the mixes we come up with / guessing in the next couple weeks?

I'm a little disappointed in myself for slacking off the last couple weeks. I was really hoping to have my mix figured out by the end of this month, and dirt delivered in mid march so i could start getting them into their pots and applying tea's / further testing. So much work to do this spring its stressful to think about.

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The tests are not equal. Best to stick with one lab so your baseline is solid.

Weight and density of soil less is lower than soil.

The soil test does not account for this.

Can use 10-15 percent top soil and then reduce the compost inputs.

If you did the soil test and amend your soil to 6" but the soil less mix is 12" deep you "MAY" be ok if the soil weight is 1/2 of soil.

Some soil less mixes are about 1/3 the weight but varies depending on inputs.

Mix the base peat, compost and top soil. Weigh, Test and amend.

Clay does add tcec but ideally do not want the soil to be so heavy it does not drain well.
A excessive amount of clay is not ideal.

Physical, biological and chemical properties give a more complete picture vs just melich3 test.

Here is more info on N ratios from the power growers seminar. This is where the information on N ratios came from that was mentioned.


ammonium nitrogen to nitrate nitrogen info:



Get a solvita c02 test at logan labs would be more ideal for n release. Base the calculations on OM and more factors than solely chemistry.
Example test with N. peat, compost, ag lime and rock dust. not yet amended.


I find the malibu at 12.5% of the mix will bring the potassium level little higher than MOST sources of EWC.

Recently got some EWC in the midwest and was insanely loaded up with nutrients. Never seen that before.

I can hit a consistent 5% K with ewc or ewc and fungal compost. All depends on the compost source.

Hope that helps.

p.s.
Curious is the reason you are looking at the penn state state for the compost test. is that for the OM to carbon ratios??

I find light weight mixes to weigh about 1/5 of field soil. So, given the same tcec, the field soil can hold 5x the plant nutrients and probably water that the light weight mix holds.

You may not want 5x because of drainage but 3-4x is easy to get by adding drainage amendments and/or some peat to the field soil. You would use peat if the organic matter of the field soil is really low

The other part is the C:N ratio. In high C lightweight mixes you are gonna have to live with 40-50:1 ratios. You are always going to be amending N just to feed the microbes the carbon can support. You will never supply your N with nitrogen from the atmosphere.

With field soil...say 10% or less carbon...you can hit 20:1, the system reaches equilibrium and atmospheric N is in play

That is why I like top soil

great thread , i,m glad this was bought back up,( i had forgotten about it ) I've been asking people for help in regards to this very thing . some have helped some haven't . many thanks to the ones that have .

guess for the guys who couldn't be bothered . its a shame you can't find the time to help a fellow member . just remember we all started somewhere . i,m trying not to me rude , i guess i just find the time if someone pm,s me about something . if i can help or i can't i,ll reply . we all know how pm works .

but as a whole there is a couple of really decent members . thanks guys

Great thread.