Crossing fems detrimental for vigour?

Big Nasty said:

If one of the female comes from regular seeds there are male alleles in the cross,as for crossing 2 feminized plants(which i've later discovered being related)i haven't noticed any loss of vigour,these plants are actually very vigourous,i'm harvesting the second one in a couple of weeks.This is the first try for me so take it with a grain of salt.

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I really don't understand what you mean, the y chromosome isn't carried by female plants regardless of what pollen parent made them, what "Male alleles" are carried by females?

If you breed only using reversed females you will lose the genes the males had, but those genes would only appear in males anyway...

DemonPigeon said:

I really don't understand what you mean, the y chromosome isn't carried by female plants regardless of what pollen parent made them, what "Male alleles" are carried by females?

If you breed only using reversed females you will lose the genes the males had, but those genes would only appear in males anyway...

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I was talking about autosomes,they can still carry a allele inherited from the last male in the line not that it is important anyway,sure there is no y in female but i dont know what a y chromosome passes on a part from sex.

I think somehow it would alter the genetic of a strain.

I couldn't find a scholarly study anymore that address this specific issue but if I remember it correctly, it specify that there are specific alleles that only the male could provide. In other words females can't transfer these alleles.

It might not have something to do with vigour but in other areas such as resistant to diseases.

yes, there are certain genes that only the male provides, those are the genes that are located on the Y-chromosome.

however, only male progeny inherit the Y-chromosome. so for the female progeny, which we're interested in, it doesn't matter at all, they don't have those genes either way, no matter if their dad was a true man or a reversed female.

and since the Y-chromsome is quiet different from the x-chromsome(this is the case in humans, I'm just assuming it works the same in weed), they don't recombine like other chromsomes do. so all those male genes are linked together, and females never have any of them.

(the other way around there are some genes that are only passed by females, and those do end up in male progeny, those are the genes outside the nucleus, in the mitochondria and chloroplasts)

djonkoman said:

yes, there are certain genes that only the male provides, those are the genes that are located on the Y-chromosome.

however, only male progeny inherit the Y-chromosome. so for the female progeny, which we're interested in, it doesn't matter at all, they don't have those genes either way, no matter if their dad was a true man or a reversed female.

and since the Y-chromsome is quiet different from the x-chromsome(this is the case in humans, I'm just assuming it works the same in weed), they don't recombine like other chromsomes do. so all those male genes are linked together, and females never have any of them.

(the other way around there are some genes that are only passed by females, and those do end up in male progeny, those are the genes outside the nucleus, in the mitochondria and chloroplasts)

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Interesting

How about sex-inheritance? Which could phenotypically express differently in males and females progeny. With female x female, it could alter the sex chromosome at the expense of male progeny. Without a male offspring, future generations will severely reduce the gene pool.

There are alelles that are sex-linked aside just being a boy or a girl. This phenomenon is apparent in F1's, where certain phenotypes would only appear on males and not on females. Which such trait could be pass equally to future generations of both male and female progeny.

This is just phenotypic and I wouldn't be surprise if there are hundreds of genomes that are sex-linked.

What I'm saying is, by removing the Y chromosome in the equation, we removed all the possibilities that the Y chromosome could trigger thus limiting the gene pool.


and then there's epigenetic which could be a pandora's box for female x female.

Just a thought

It seems that a lot of people are concerned about "limiting the gene pool". The main driving force behind selective breeding is specifically to limit the genetic variance in a population. Take Mendel's peas as an example.. He learned that you could produce all green or all yellow peas by breeding out the genes that produce the other color. Whether or not this breeding is advantageous is up to the grower to decide. They may absolutely hate green peas for whatever reason, and prefer to grow only yellow peas that have a lower nutritional value (I made that part up).



Also while its true that populations tend to suffer when they have little genetic variance among them, cannabis in general will never reach that level. Cannabis is grown world wide now and has been for a long time. Today, there are many different cultivars in existence. A good number of people are working to preserve landrace strains. There will always be feral fields of marijuana and hemp, with a lot of boys in the mix. Since females need to be chemically treated to reverse them, these lines will stay within cultivation. If someone leaves a field of feminized seed to the wilds, that population will only have 1 generation... unless some stray male from somewhere else pollenize them. An example of this would be dog breeds. There is never going to be a point where the only type of dog is a Chihuahua. No matter how hard people try, there's always going to be a stray mutt running around some where trying to dump his sperm into anything he can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Switcher56 View Post
I guess a metaphor one could use is... Remember when we copied VHS tapes, how the quality suffered with each copy of a copy.

aridbud said:

Great rationale.

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G `day AB

The OP asked about mating 2 different females .
How does that relate to copying VHS tapes and loss of quality .
One is copying the original , the other is creating something new ?

Thanks for sharin

EB .

I've done it a couple times. That is, used a female plants pollen to pollinate another female. It doesn't seem to present any problems in the first generation. I can't speak to what happens in subsequent generations because I haven't tried. What is interesting is that a female plants male pollen often will 'throw' somewhat differently than her seeds, if that makes any sense?

Hookahhead said:

It seems that a lot of people are concerned about "limiting the gene pool". The main driving force behind selective breeding is specifically to limit the genetic variance in a population.

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Its true that in selective breeding you as a breeder select the desirable traits you want. Having said that....it depends on how you apply selective breeding in conjunction with your breeding system.

If you're in-breeding very closely related pair "repeatedly" (such as brother to sister) and breed the offspring again with each other (brother to sister) then yes you run the risk of most of your genome turning homozygous or as you say limit the genetic variance. Which is not the way to do in-breeding.

However, you can apply selective breeding to an in-breeding program for instance without sacrificing genetic variance by creating a program/system focusing or closely monitoring your in-breeding coefficient. This been done and in fact strengthen the purity of a breed without losing vigor.

The OP topic is breeding female to female. This is not selective breeding in a true sense.

The grower might be trying to save a strain for his/her grow or trying to produce more seeds for his/her future grow. If this is the goal of the grower then by all means...we have to do what we have to do to produce ganja....there's nothing wrong with that.

But as a viable breeding program in the truest sense, I still maintain that this is not the way to go as I already have pointed out.

I have just dipped my toe in the breeding pool, I am only using females to produce. I wish to create my own personal strains for my own personal use. I also find that it can be simple and will allow me to start early own restructuring my plants for better yields. Also having my seed stock replenished seems a great idea. So, for what little I know about genetics, plants and animals are different when breeding, certain frogs can change sex to keep a population going, certain plants can do the same thing. Plants are more resiliant than animals, a higher regeneration rate(clones), interbreeding( unique strains), and adaptability(colloidal silver will change a female into a male). What is most unique is the lack of genetic degradation, so the concept of the VHS tape recordings, very witty, yet wrong in this case. Plants can take more punishment and thrive. Rhoderization is common in cannabis, which makes the continuation of a plant better in survival. Of course you can really start to damage that line with a clone of a clone of a clone, and then breeding those clones until you get what you want, or a plant that just is total waste. I am no expert, I have studied a little botany over the years, I just love cannabis, smoking, of course, the growing, that is the race against yourself, the cultivation of the ultimate plant.