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Old 08-22-2017, 06:19 PM #1
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Ultrasound (sonication) at low temps for cannabis extracts?

So, I have been doing a lot of reading on laboratory and industrial extraction methods from papers and abstracts (when the assholes firewall publicly funded research). One of the things that I noted was the use of ultrasound and sonication, which was shown to both speed up the extraction process of nuts, herbs, roots and woody mass and increase the yield of desired compounds. The method of action is lysis:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysis

"Lysis (/ˈlaɪsɪs/ LY-sis; Greek λύσις lýsis, "a loosing" from λύειν lýein, "to unbind") refers to the breaking down of the membrane of a cell, often by viral, enzymic, or osmotic (that is, "lytic" /ˈlɪtɪk/ LIT-ək) mechanisms that compromise its integrity. Cell lysis is used in laboratories to break open cells and purify or further study their contents. Lysis in the laboratory may be affected by enzymes or detergents or other chaotropic agents. Mechanical disruption of cell membranes, as by repeated freezing and thawing, sonication, pressure, or filtration may also be referred to as lysis. Many laboratory experiments are sensitive to the choice of lysis mechanism; often it is desirable to avoid mechanical shear forces that would denature or degrade sensitive macromolecules, such as proteins and DNA, and different types of detergents can yield different results. The unprocessed solution immediately after lysis but before any further extraction steps is often referred to as a crude lysate.[8][9]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonication

"Sonication is the act of applying sound energy to agitate particles in a sample, for various purposes. Ultrasonic frequencies (>20 kHz) are usually used, leading to the process also being known as ultrasonication or ultra-sonication.[1] Sonication can be used to speed dissolution, by breaking intermolecular interactions. It is especially useful when it is not possible to stir the sample, as with NMR tubes. It may also be used to provide the energy for certain chemical reactions to proceed. Sonication can be used to remove dissolved gases from liquids (degassing) by sonicating the liquid while it is under a vacuum. This is an alternative to the freeze-pump-thaw and sparging methods."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasound

"Ultrasonication offers great potential in the processing of liquids and slurries, by improving the mixing and chemical reactions in various applications and industries. Ultrasonication generates alternating low-pressure and high-pressure waves in liquids, leading to the formation and violent collapse of small vacuum bubbles. This phenomenon is termed cavitation and causes high speed impinging liquid jets and strong hydrodynamic shear-forces. These effects are used for the deagglomeration and milling of micrometre and nanometre-size materials as well as for the disintegration of cells or the mixing of reactants. In this aspect, ultrasonication is an alternative to high-speed mixers and agitator bead mills. Ultrasonic foils under the moving wire in a paper machine will use the shock waves from the imploding bubbles to distribute the cellulose fibres more uniformly in the produced paper web, which will make a stronger paper with more even surfaces. Furthermore, chemical reactions benefit from the free radicals created by the cavitation as well as from the energy input and the material transfer through boundary layers. For many processes, this sonochemical (see sonochemistry) effect leads to a substantial reduction in the reaction time, like in the transesterification of oil into biodiesel."

Another thing that I noted is that the researchers were performing ultrasonic extractions at temps of 40C - 60C using solvents. They are obviously not concerned about chlorophyll pickup with ethanol as we are. So my questions are:

Is anyone using ultrasound in their extraction process? This tech does not seem that it would scale well with tri-clamp gear, but I think it has some exciting possibilities for people running smaller QWET style extraction or terpene vacuum extraction.

How would ultra-cold temps of less than -50C effect the lysis process? Ice would have formed on anything water based in the material to be extracted and the ethanol would be the vehicle for cavitation and cell membrane disruption. Would the cold temp not help to shatter the cell walls for a complete extraction?

Is this a bad thing? Could it cause the ice holding the water solubles, that we do not want in our extract, to find a way to bond to the ethanol? Would this be similar to extracting at a higher temp (above freezing) in some way? Could it possible create particles that are smaller than 1 micron that would make it past filters?

Food for thought (for me)...

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Old 08-22-2017, 06:36 PM #2
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Thinking about experimenting with a few 60W & 100W transducers connected to a stainless pan that is partially sitting on dry ice. Would make some kind of contraption that allows the transducer to pull warm air from the bottom, but it would be metal on metal at less than -60C, so I might just be performing a test on how long it takes to disintegrate a transducer! Ha ha One thought is that enough heat will be generated by the unit to slow the heat transfer to the pan from damaging the unit while it is operating.

They make the transducers for ultrasonic cleaners from 28khz to over 120khz, but it seems like most are selling the 28k and 40k versions on ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/122619349678

https://www.ebay.com/itm/121231567480

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Old 08-22-2017, 11:23 PM #3
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I've tried vibration

does that count lol
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Old 08-22-2017, 11:33 PM #4
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Old 08-23-2017, 02:52 AM #5
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https://www.hielscher.com/fast-simpl...extraction.htm

https://blog.sonomechanics.com/blog/c...action-methods

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Old 08-23-2017, 03:07 PM #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VonBudí View Post
Interesting thread, but not really what I am after. I think they could integrate something like this for automated ice water hash:

https://www.bjultrasonic.com/shop/ul...en-transducer/

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Old 08-23-2017, 03:36 PM #7
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That is a great article from Hielscher. Seems to be a high end laboratory sonication probe, and the small hand held unit starts at 3,000 Euros. Looking for a DIY approach to use ultrasound in a few steps with ln2 and terpene extraction.

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Originally Posted by Mikell View Post
This seems truly innovative, but only hint at their water based process:

Our ongoing research in these areas has yielded several breakthroughs, which we will be sharing with you in the upcoming blog posts.

Currently we are focusing our efforts on:

1. Developing a water-based cannabis oil extraction method. The objective is to avoid using solvents and instead utilize water (with some food-compatible additives) as the extraction medium. Since cannabis oils are hydrophobic and do not mix well with water, this approach is quite challenging. However, because high-intensity ultrasound is particularly good at mixing liquids that do not naturally mix, we expect to have this method developed in several months.

2. Designing translucent, water-compatible cannabis extract formulations with enhanced bioavailability. Cannabis extracts' poor solubility in water results in low bioavailability, requiring patients to consume a lot more product than would otherwise be necessary. Utilizing our experience with the pharmaceutical industry, we are in the final stages of developing cannabis extract nanoemulsions (nano-cannabinoids) with exceptionally high bioavailability and therapeutic effect. These formulations are translucent and water-compatible so they can be easily mixed into beverages without compromising their optical clarity.


I am interested in distilled water ultrasound process to breakdown trichome structure in order to release terpenes for capture in a vucuum oven/cold trap setup using ln2. After multiple freeze/thaw cycles in oven, material will be dry and ready for ethanol extraction to get cannabinoids.

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Old 10-10-2017, 10:48 PM #8
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Good thread, interesting uses for vibrations I hadn't considered.

I've been interested in using one of those heated ultrasonic jewelry cleaners for combining decarboxylated hash oil and sunflower lecithin to increase absorption and bio availability for patients with compromised digestive systems.
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Old 10-11-2017, 03:27 AM #9
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Never heard of sonification for extractions, however I know some people use sonification to clean really dirty glassware. I have also heard of people using ultrasound sonification with cannabis oil, coconut oil, and emulsifiers to create water soluble cannabinoids.
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:47 PM #10
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I ran into a lovely guy who made really beautiful tasting extractions via a "secret unique method" which he would not discuss. So, I said, what, ultrasonics ? .... Ooops, his secret idea was nothing of the sort.

I found the hielscher link after sayingt o myself "there is on way that other people have not already thought about this" ....Like the Rule 43 of hash extraction...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikell View Post
https://www.hielscher.com/fast-simpl...extraction.htm

https://blog.sonomechanics.com/blog/...action-methods

Your mind is in the right place.

Everytime I think of something novel, I google it and discover so did someone else.

Odds are bad to keep going, zero if you give up.

I think that last sentence was influenced by Instagram and the daily motivational slogan whores.
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