Intermediate grower here...having some questions on sog and led

Hello fellow Ic-ers and happy burning.
I'm just about to finish flowering on some dialed in orange kush I grow them small..like real small. I'm a micro grow enthusiast. I have been using about 600w in cfl cuz well they are here I am here and well why not and its been fun with almost a zip a plant in three months with 3 to 5 plants at a time in a 2.5'x2.5'x1.5' HxWxD environment for flowering. now im trying to get more serious money is going to be getting tighter and my medical needs are just that needs so I am trying to be prepared! Now I cannot necessarily change my box size but I am looking to sog more plants with led. I will make a journal down the road but for now this is my question:
I want to use 164w 42:12 red blue led in the same size box instead of of 1 plant in a gallon water bottle I want 4 plants wicking in the same size bottle footprint.I.E. 4 16 oz water bottles jammed into 1 gallon bottle with wicks with 36 plants total in a 2.5'x2.5'x.1.5' HxWxD environment I already top and lst and have a soil mix of ff ocean forest mixed 3-1 with vermiculite medium grade course my nutes are an' jungle 3 part with big bud and over drive and I will be fighting cal def with an sensi calmag 4 in 4 out every week is an oz a week possible?

6oow and only 5 oz max yield..ouch that's horrible....yeehaw

I seem to have a similar approach to how I grow as you do, I want to maximize my flowering area but still make it as easy as possible. But I have some questions for you on why you're doing the setup the way you're talking about.

First, Why the switch to led? At first I was going to say the led you're planning on won't come close to the amount of light from 600w of cfl, but I think you might be over doing it on light without co2. You have 160w of light per sq ft. Knock that down to around 60-70w per sq ft with cfl and you'll do fine, so that should put you around 225-260w. The led might come close to the efficiency but for this all you could have to do is unscrew bulbs instead of buying or building a new light.

Second, what led are you thinking about? With such limited height even an led can be tricky. If you make your own you can kind of figure around it but some pre made panels have the cable plug straight into the top of the fixture, which kills like 3-4 inches of room above the light. Not to mention with most leds you will still need to have fans cooling the heatsink.

Third, if you're going to do a wicking system you should read up on all the ppk threads. Ppk's started as a wicking system and they made very small and easy changes to make it increasingly better. The perched water table is the biggest thing that you have to understand. When you wick up water there's an area right above the water line where the medium is just too wet to provide efficient results, and this area changes sizes depending on the medium. If you use actual wicks the roots can wind around the wick in the bottom of the container and choke the wick, so it's easier to use the potting medium as a wick. So you could take your entire pot and have it barely sit in the water, but then the bottom 2-4" (the size of the pwt depending on material) is super saturated and is not optimal for roots. If you use a thin tube that's connected to the bottom of the pot (think about something like a sink tailpiece or just a pvc tube fastened to the pot) then you can have the medium drop below the area of the pot and the pwt is kept within that tube. So instead of having the bottom 2-4" of your pot be supersaturated, now you only have a small volume of medium super saturated that is outside of the pot. Of course adding a float valve to the reservoir below all the pots will enable you to raise or lower the level of the res and have it automatically be resupplied by a bulk reservoir. So not only will it let you not have to top it off all the time, but it will keep the level consistent exactly where you want it. Want the medium in the pots to be more moist? Then raise the water level. Is it too moist? Drop it down some.

Fourth, are you completely dead set on those nutes? I don't know ANYTHING about the nutes you listed but in this type of system people have already found out that a couple work way better than the rest. The one that a lot of people on this site use for this type of system is jacks classic. When added to RO or distilled water at the right amounts it's super stable and doesn't experience any significant ph swings. This is important since if your res gets out of whack you need to change it out. Not the end of the world but it makes things harder if they're constantly raising or dropping ph and having to do a res change still isn't fun. I'd also recommend not using soil and going with coco or turface or something else that's more of a hydro type medium. Not because I know it won't work or won't be efficient, but because I know that those others work and I haven't seen it done, so I'm just more leary of it.

Now if you have the wick system running and you have a hydro medium that drains well you'll find out that top feeding will increase growth and yield. The wick keeps the medium at a specific moisture profile, so when you feed from the top it saturates all of the medium and pushes all the old stale air out of the medium. The perched water table helps all that extra moisture move down through the medium and then back into the res which pulls new fresh air into the medium. So this does a few things, brings new air to the roots, keeps the nutrient solution mixed, and prevents salt build up in the medium. A lot of people running ppks (basically the wick system plus a timed top feed from the res below) don't notice a difference between feeding until harvest and doing a flush and that the ph and ec are still fine after a full grow. This is the part that appealed to me in the first place because the biggest pain with a perpetual sog is all the work, so with a ppk like I described you don't need to feed at different strengths for different stages of growth and you don't need to worry which ones get nutes and which get plain water. All you do is keep the bulk reservoir topped off.

About your yield, that's a really difficult question but I think it's totally possible. There is a guy on this site that had a system similar to what I described in a size a little smaller than yours with 420w of cfl. You can check out his thread here: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=248868. He didn't keep it running for whatever reason but he did harvest 5 of the plants for about 2 ounces. He was doing mostly wick feed and he would use a small submersible pump to top feed by hand.

Now about the perpetual sog, DrBudgreengenes on this site has a few very big threads about his perpetual sogs and I'd reccommend reading them. He uses only cfl and throws clones right into flower with no veg time. The biggest thing I learned from his threads was knowing what size of clone to take to get a certain height after stretch. With a perpetual grow you won't be able to move the lights since you'll have brand new clones along with plants that will be ready for harvest in 1 week. DrBudgreengenes had the luxury of being able to put small plants on blocks or other pots to get them closer to the light, but with a wick fed system that's not really possible. So it's even more important to know what size clone to take and root so that it will naturally just stop at the lights. The cabinet the DocCrow used he put a long bulb in the back to help with the new plants and you might have to do the same. Maybe have new clones under an additional cfl hung really low.

@stoned-trout:
yes it is kinda over kill and just way too freaking hot
@funny math:
Thank you so much for your response it I get most of my theoretic from dr greengenes kinda how I got started lol what I mean is like looking at his threads I think to myself theoretically I could do that but how do I make it mine? I agree it is doable with cfl but I'm actually going using 54w e27 led this one :http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...DrAcAaZAyjBBc-XrTWUAsaAirD8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds 3 of them not specifically for better yielding mostly for temp control even in the winter my enclosure was 85-90 due to just not having enough to vent at the time but I'm getting it done also I exaggerated my claim on wattage due to being lazy and not being in there to count its 20 23w 2700k swirly cfl so yea I know I own over a 1000w in cfl just couldn't remember how many I put in a year ago thank you for the reference on ppks opened my eyes even wider might be doable in fact if I can scale the plants to stay in a 15-18 inch space from top of pot to lights I might be able

@funnymath
Also the reason I use AN nutes is I've been in soil and well I could afford them now I have them and can't afford others basically it comes down to money if cfls could work better with added co2 than led opens up a few more possibilities I have heard of a sugar yeast co2 in water bottles but I think it would be easier for a vinegar backing soda reaction I live right next to dollar tree...I really have to figure temps out I already have 2 250 cfm duct fans with ducting and 2 50 cfm bathroom ventilators all jury rigged into my dinky box with a pretty steady amount of air flow its just always freakin hot in my house and basically I've been thinking I could modify a gallon water bottle so I can fit a bunch of frozen sponges in with vent holes to one side and a pc fan blowing down say 2-4 of them my current box is a flimsy w/b poly and chepo build-a-closet frame it's 2 partitions each size 2.5x2.5x1.5 HxWxD and it is just an eyesore ha hence redesigning a new box is optimal for stealth but being so broke is making it difficult I kinda rearranged my bed so that its got a space under it 33"x2.5'x2' HxWxD. my local shop sells w/b by the foot for a buck so picking up a 15'x10' is only $15 and change.
I really like doc crows idea its everything I am trying to do i just have to figure how to modify it to suit my spacial needs and wallet

That's more space than I have, well not vertical. I can run 8-9 1 gallon Hempy milk jugs in 4 sq foot and pull at least 1/2 oz per. Stop using soil, it's silly for SOG becuase you don't get the growth neccesary to produce big fruits. 1 week beg for the 1 gallon hempys or do 2 liters and 2-3 days veg. I use one nutrient-Maxibloom. Super easy, and you can use way less cfls

@vitamingreeninc
so how much space do you have vertically?
ultimately I need a zip a week in an enclosure size previously stated I don't have to harvest every week, however, It would be the way I would feel the least anxiety of running out I smoke a lot I share a lot too with other patients and now being on a fixed income I HAVE to create a steady supply but just don't have the space isn't a ppk a wick/hempy cross?
like basically my idea is a 30"x30"x18" wood box with a 41qt sterilite underbed tub painted black as a res with 36 of the mini tree pots/pvc fittings running a 4:1 vermiculite perlite soiless media opting to buy all that instead of led and just use the 20 bulbs I'm already using
having 36 plants 4 in 4 out weekly starting from seed until I can build a tiny bubble cloner to get on schedule does a quarter a plant sound feasible aside from strain dependency is their anything else I could do to hit my goal I don't have a maximum goal just a minimum 4 plant a week @ a quarter a plant

Ok so I've harvested dried and cured my last on to the next! I'm getting a new phone in a couple of days so I will be able to post pics real soon! XD this is how I think its going to work... or at least what I am going to attempt..: doing the math at 1/3gpw I found led bulbs at newegg that are screw fixture 54 watts red:blue 14:4@ 20 bucks a pop from china the appear to be about 3-5 inches in depth with a big ol' heat sink on them epistar leds rock in general from what understand. I'm continuing my experiment combining wicking and drgreengenes bottle idea where I insert 4 top cut off, holes up and down 'em, 16 oz waterbottles inside a gallon bottle bottom cut off, upside down in its own bottom as res. using ff ocean grow mixed with vermiculite 3 parts soil 1 part verm and due to the comment received here about wicking I believe I'm going to use vermi to wick as well maybe use 1/4 inch tubing to hold vermi wicks puts my total potting height at 7 inches roughly so potting and light roughly equal a foot give or take an inch or 2. I have a total of 30" inches vertically so that leaves 18 inches from pot to bulb or roughly 15 inches of grow space I'm going to put all three led bulbs centered as a triangle then 6 23 watt 2700k cfl for array lighting 3 gallon containers across: three gallon containers deep pulling 1 in/out every week I don't know about cloning at the moment but in the near future. This is all going to be 12/12 from seed until the cloner is up and running which I have a separate space for I just need the ai pump and stone couple of days away I think well see I got a dog and belly that come before medication lol total wattage 300 temperature controlled by a ice bucket dehumidifier on both ends keep the hot air cooled coming out of the box and the hot air in my house cooled coming into the box I own two 250 cfm inlines and two 50 cfm bathroom ventilator well we will see what happens! XD I can't start building till the lights get here in the mail anyway 2 weeks from now to a month from now so eh im going to work on the prototyping the space out and germinating seeds I have enough to start and then transfer into the new setup I'm exited to the point of a schoolgirl giggle!

so I have a plant 4 weeks into flowering still in my box the led arrived they are flippin sweet
gearing up to start a journal tonight will post pictures of everything there now that I also have a camera to use bubble cloner coming soon also

The road not taken...

The road not taken...

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood..... nah just kidding.Ok so journal never happened. Hdd crashed; thank god for early winter solstice gift..hehe get it?Like sands through the hourglass so are the days of our lives right? Lets get right too it then shall we? I really wanted to do a ppk but just havent been able to get the perpetual sog going with it. I might try again with three reseviors at some point to kind of stagger a 3 week thing. The roots were much bigger like the actual strands. I thought that was pretty cool, but I used perlite and vermiculite and the pwt was damn tricky. I havent moved on just away for a while. I decided to kinda "re-engineer" my design for the time being while I save my meager amounts after bills for more parts. so lets roll up our sleeves roll up a fatty and break some stuff down..

The box itself:

dumpser find dresser
"ground found" 3/4" plywood cut for front and bottom(that box was missin' some wood ) and a nod to the crypt keeper..
dimension:65"W*31"H*18"D

The innards:flowering:

16 23w cfls x10 2700k x6 6500k
8 socket adapters
some 3 outlet extension plugs
8 lamp splitter "wyes"
wayy too much white black poly and maybe not enough in some places
1 200cfm inline outake
2 bathroom ventilator fans 50cfm one intake the other above flowering lights
a cardboard divide and card board fan house to neaten up above the lights and suck that heat out
dimensions 27"W*18"D*15" pot to bulb "gap"(3")

The innards:clone:

2 14w cfl 1x 6500k 1x5000k (not in yet)
1 bubble cloner: coffee can sized creamer container with some holes in the lid, some waternoodle pieces to hold clones, and 10 gal airpump with a long ass 18" line spiraled with a gazillion holes about 7" from the pump to the bottom end which is closed plumbers epoxy puttied to the bottom (built obiously but.. um ..yeah not in yet)
havent actually decided if im going to veg seeing as my plan is to get the females outta some seeds I just popped and start cloning after the stretch

potting/meduim:

1 gallon container cut tall just over half so the top half is bigger flip it into the bottom throw some 50/50 vermi and perl and stuff 9 of em in there clone to flower; flower to clone. I'm not as desperate on the idea of a zip a week as I was when I was in "oh no im screwed for life" panic mode. I ma screwed for life then I realized every body is...me human; me survive oogabooga! I know I know grow porn wheres the grow porn? pics next post waitin for lights to come on. Tminus ten minutes in counting!

oh and right now I got maybe 15 seeds popped all running from 12/12

ok so im over here takin' pictures rememberin' how I kinda left it incomplete on purpose i think I just started a journal so let me organize clean everything up and i will go ahead and diary/journal this mofo on a phresh journal