ACE crosses planned - what makes sense, what not?

Felice · Feb 6, 2021

Hi all,

I am new here, but already passively participating for quite some time. Growing since a while, but new to breeding and have some doubts here, maybe someone can help ?
So, I’m doing my planning for the next runs (indoors and parallel outdoors starting March/April), and want to start crossing a bit, with following (main) objectives:

#1 fix very berry (purple) pheno in PCK Backcross: VIO reg., PCK reg., PanxPCK fem., PCK fem.
#2 Bubba Kush representation coffee-cocoa: BKxEP reg., BH fem., ( + VIO, PCK, PanxPCK clones )

Inventory:
1x PCK fem.
6x PCK reg.
6x Violeta (Malawi x PCK) reg.
1x Bubba Hash (Bubba Kush x Hashplant) fem.
10x Bubba Kush x Erdpurt reg.
2x Panama x PCK fem.
(5x Tikal reg.)
(2x NepalJam fem.)

The idea is to do the first run with the Violeta, PCK, Panama x PCK and select for most desirable berry traits, PCK mother, to be pollinated by Violeta male (BX); Maybe: also PanxPCK x VIO (or PCK). Some plants can be cloned and preserved outdoors.

2nd run would be BKxEP, BH (and maybe PCK fem.), find most Bubba Kush coffee expression in male plants and pollinate similar BKxEP and the Bubba Hash fem. (PCK if genetical diversity is advantageous.)

Now, reading more and more about breeding, I am getting even more confused about what to expect from the different crosses. If someone here could help me briefly clarifying my doubts I would highly appreciate that!

Run #1:
- PanxPCK x VIO – problems to expect due to shared parent (father = PCK)?
- VIO x PCK – backcross with father plant, unlikely to get good results?
- PanxPCK x PCK – backcross with father plant, unlikely to get good results?

Run #2:
- BH x BKxEP can be seen as backcross or F1 (BH = BK x HP)? Favorable, or even:
- BH x BKxEP – problems to expect due to shared parent (mother = BK)?
- Anyone an idea how to identify Bubba Kush leaning male plants (BK x EP)?
- Advisable to cross BKxEP x BKxEP, as being a F2 with unpredictable outcome?

Or, (worst case haha) are all these cross ideas too close to each other and unlikely to come to good results, so better to make more heterozygous couples (like e.g. PCK+Tikal; BKxEP + VIO +BH)?

Wow it got quite some text, hope it makes at least halfway sense… ?

Thanks!
Felice

FletchF.Fletch · Feb 7, 2021

Sounds like you're going to be pretty busy. Also sounds very Cool!!

Don't worry about shared DNA overlap creating problems as your working from fresh seed stock representing the parental lines not the actual parent plants. Almost any of the crosses you're considering are Guaranteed to kick out some real gems when you sprout the offspring.

When selecting a Male from a hybrid with the intent of steering the next generation toward one parent, just go for the one that looks and smells most like the textbook definition of that particular strain. One is bound to be more Bubba than the other boys, he'll make it obvious with look, health, scent and you will know. Don't be surprised if more than one Male is worth keeping, just remember to label pollinated branches, and keep some sort of breeding journal so you can keep things straight record wise.

Common Sense · Feb 7, 2021

Welcome Felice to this forum, I am sure your questions will be answered by very competent responders.
I think it is great to have a clearly defined goal and yours sound quite interesting. One aspect is not completely clear to me: do you hunt for a selected pheno with the described traits (and propagate that by cloning) or are you planning to establish a stable seed line?

The later will probably involve a lot of work with backcrossing and several generations of selection. Especially if you use one of the F1 hybrid strains as parental plant, as their offspring will be very variable.
:tiphat:

chilliwilli · Feb 7, 2021

Felice said:
Hi all,

I am new here, but already passively participating for quite some time. Growing since a while, but new to breeding and have some doubts here, maybe someone can help ?
So, I’m doing my planning for the next runs (indoors and parallel outdoors starting March/April), and want to start crossing a bit, with following (main) objectives:

#1 fix very berry (purple) pheno in PCK Backcross: VIO reg., PCK reg., PanxPCK fem., PCK fem.
#2 Bubba Kush representation coffee-cocoa: BKxEP reg., BH fem., ( + VIO, PCK, PanxPCK clones )

Inventory:
1x PCK fem.
6x PCK reg.
6x Violeta (Malawi x PCK) reg.
1x Bubba Hash (Bubba Kush x Hashplant) fem.
10x Bubba Kush x Erdpurt reg.
2x Panama x PCK fem.
(5x Tikal reg.)
(2x NepalJam fem.)

The idea is to do the first run with the Violeta, PCK, Panama x PCK and select for most desirable berry traits, PCK mother, to be pollinated by Violeta male (BX); Maybe: also PanxPCK x VIO (or PCK). Some plants can be cloned and preserved outdoors.

2nd run would be BKxEP, BH (and maybe PCK fem.), find most Bubba Kush coffee expression in male plants and pollinate similar BKxEP and the Bubba Hash fem. (PCK if genetical diversity is advantageous.)

Now, reading more and more about breeding, I am getting even more confused about what to expect from the different crosses. If someone here could help me briefly clarifying my doubts I would highly appreciate that!

Run #1:
- PanxPCK x VIO – problems to expect due to shared parent (father = PCK)?
- VIO x PCK – backcross with father plant, unlikely to get good results?
- PanxPCK x PCK – backcross with father plant, unlikely to get good results?

Run #2:
- BH x BKxEP can be seen as backcross or F1 (BH = BK x HP)? Favorable, or even:
- BH x BKxEP – problems to expect due to shared parent (mother = BK)?
- Anyone an idea how to identify Bubba Kush leaning male plants (BK x EP)?
- Advisable to cross BKxEP x BKxEP, as being a F2 with unpredictable outcome?

Or, (worst case haha) are all these cross ideas too close to each other and unlikely to come to good results, so better to make more heterozygous couples (like e.g. PCK+Tikal; BKxEP + VIO +BH)?

Wow it got quite some text, hope it makes at least halfway sense… ?

Thanks!
Felice

Nice first post :good:

Felice · Feb 7, 2021

FletchF.Fletch said:
Sounds like you're going to be pretty busy. Also sounds very Cool!!

Don't worry about shared DNA overlap creating problems as your working from fresh seed stock representing the parental lines not the actual parent plants. Almost any of the crosses you're considering are Guaranteed to kick out some real gems when you sprout the offspring.

When selecting a Male from a hybrid with the intent of steering the next generation toward one parent, just go for the one that looks and smells most like the textbook definition of that particular strain. One is bound to be more Bubba than the other boys, he'll make it obvious with look, health, scent and you will know. Don't be surprised if more than one Male is worth keeping, just remember to label pollinated branches, and keep some sort of breeding journal so you can keep things straight record wise.

Hi Fletch, thanks a lot for your feedback!
Yeah, I guess I will be pretty busy, but it should be feasible. Indoors I plan to start each run with around 12 seeds, then select down to 6 or less, depending on how favorable the plants are to achieve the objective. (Of course, if other interesting pairs of phenotypes show up, like e.g. a very lemony Violeta male and lemon PanxPCK female, and space is there, I will most likely also try to cross these.)
On top, I have a balcony with southern European climate, where I can emigrate some of the plants (or clones or re-vegs) to. Indoors space is limited and mainly for purposes of breeding, not so much yield.

Thanks on the tips on selecting the right males, that is completely new to me and I highly appreciate any input on that regard

Of course, all is meticulously noted, have a big Excel working file, and all the plants and different pollinated branches will be marked.

Good to hear you do not think the genetical overlap is a problem. Violeta and PanxPCK, both share having a PCK father (or reversed PCK female as father in case of the PanxPCK fem.), but since it is not the exact same father plant you say this cross is like a "new F1" - did I get that right?

Common Sense said:
Welcome Felice to this forum, I am sure your questions will be answered by very competent responders.
I think it is great to have a clearly defined goal and yours sound quite interesting. One aspect is not completely clear to me: do you hunt for a selected pheno with the described traits (and propagate that by cloning) or are you planning to establish a stable seed line?

The later will probably involve a lot of work with backcrossing and several generations of selection. Especially if you use one of the F1 hybrid strains as parental plant, as their offspring will be very variable.

Common Sense, thanks for the welcome!

I will grow from seeds, and plan to select parental plants for specific complimentary crosses to fix certain traits. Obviously, if I ever will make it with any of these crosses to a stable seed line depends on many many factors, and is hard to tell at this point ;-)
At least I will have more seeds to play with and might find the one or other interesting pheno in the following runs!

chilliwilli said:
Nice first post

Thanks mate! Actually wanted to show my current project as first post, but yesterday night just needed to shoot out my questions haha :biggrin:

See here:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=379764

Cheers guys!

FletchF.Fletch · Feb 7, 2021

Felice said:
Good to hear you do not think the genetical overlap is a problem. Violeta and PanxPCK, both share having a PCK father (or reversed PCK female as father in case of the PanxPCK fem.), but since it is not the exact same father plant you say this cross is like a "new F1" - did I get that right?

Yes exactly. I would pretty much expect good results from the offspring even if there was a common parent, given the overall health and vigor of the selections from ACE.

Lucky you for having Southern European Sunlight. It will be fun to see the ones that make it outside.

Happy Growing!!

MallardDuck · Feb 8, 2021

I am by no means an expert on breeding, but if you have the space I think it makes sense to use multiple males as you cant be sure exactly what traits will be passed on to the progeny. You don't have the luxury of tasting the flower from males and have rely on structure, stem rub ect. If you use multiple males you can pursue the line that most resembles the traits you want to preserve.

Felice · Feb 8, 2021

Hi Fletch, many thanks! Some concerns less...

I think the VIO x PanamaxPCK offspring can be specifically exciting to do an own complete run at a later point, and select the most interesting phenos combining African, Central-American and Pakistani influences... probably not uniform at all, but for pheno-hunting :bow:

You will definitely see some of them under the real sun! Will have to control them in size, but the balcony is definitely an integral part of the whole project!
Later in the season the Tikal and NepalJam will be planted, from start to finish outside :tiphat:

Hi MallardDuck,
in general I hope to be able to identify males similar to the females grown, by observing different kinds of markers from early on in the grow. If I e.g. observe the same structure, leaf stem coloration, etc., and get similar stem rub smells I would assume that this male might pass on the same / similar traits as the resembling female.
Obviously I might not find good matches, or even worse, only get 0 or 1 male per batch of regular seeds, but in case I get more interesting ones and it's feasible to keep them, then I'll do so! Obviously that would be the best-case-scenario: pollinating each selected female with different males on different branches.

Lot to do, lot to learn! :dance013:

Concerning the first run, finding my own personal Em-Eukal wild cherry expression (not sure if you are familiar with that children cough drops):
Do you think adding the single remaining fem. PCK seed to the following adds extra value for the purpose?
- Violeta 6x regular
- PCK 6x regular
- Panama x PCK 2x fem.

Thanks to all! :thank you:

FletchF.Fletch · Feb 11, 2021

If there is a single remaining PCK seed, I would recommend sprouting it. Better to have an extra choice in your Pheno hunt , especially if one of the others turns out to be less than you desired for any reason.

Never had that brand of Cough Drop, but my mind is thinking Cherry, Mint, Honey, Menthol great flavors for a plant. If it smells and tastes like medicine, it must be Medicinal.

Felice · Feb 15, 2021

Of course you're right, Fletch. So the PCK fem. is also booked for that run.
Looks like I'm starting with the BKxEP and Bubba Hash run first though. Too curious about these ones!!

dubi · Feb 16, 2021

Hi Felice, thank you very much for supporting our work :yes:

We encourage growers to produce their own seeds with our genetics.

We never found much improvement when backcrossing PCK to a F1 hybrid that also contains PCK. The power on Violeta and Panama x PCK comes from the sativa side, so if you bring them too much to the PCK side, this usually brings down potency, vigor and yield compared to the original F1s. If you already have pure PCK and you can keep pure PCK clones for future grows and breeding, then i don't see much point onto inbreed PCK hybrids to PCK.

We released a limited edition a few years ago called Early Bubba Hash that was a 3 way hybrid between Bubba Kush, HashPlant and ErdPurt, it was like a CBD enriched and earlier flowering version of Bubba Hash, although that release had a stable chemotype among other traits.

You will probably find more powerful and high yielding plants by crossing Violeta and Panama x PCK and thus combining Malawi and Panama genetics with PCK. Such a polyhybrid will be more variable, but with a bit of pheno hunting you will find great plants and new interesting expressions and blends not found in the original F1s due to genetic recombination.

After many years growing and breeding, i have learnt to be more humble when working with new genetics. One can have a plan when starting new genetics, but the grower/breeder finds the path after getting familiarized with the new genetics, its pros and cons, and with the specific qualities found in the plants. After that, the path to take is always more clear.

To cut a long story short, focus first in 1 or 2 lines and grow as much seeds as possible of each, learn (and keep) which plants do you like most, then consider where do you want to bring them with the breeding, and what tools can be useful to achieve it.

Felice · Feb 16, 2021

Hi Dubi,

many thanks for also commenting here and sharing your experience!!

What you're saying about PCK backcrosses with PCK F1 hybrids clears a lot of things up for me, and lowers the amount of different crosses I want to try.
That is a very good thing - otherwise I might have gotten lost in the process, and would have spent valuable time & grow space, and focus on crosses with less likely good outcomes. Really appreciate it.

What you are saying about the Early Bubba Hash is what you would also expect about the BKxEP, respectively the cross of BH and BKxEP?
Does the chemotype of (higher) CBD phenos often come together with an ErdPurt like look? Or is that completely unrelated to appearance / growth structure of the plant?

PanxPCK x VIO is high up on the list - can't wait for the pheno hunt :bis:

You're absolutely right, having a clear objective for a cross before even knowing perfectly the genetics is "wishful thinking". I am aware that along the way things might take other turns, and the outcome might be something completely different to the original objective.
Still, I enjoy the planning phase almost as much as the growing itself. I like collecting information about the seeds I have, consider traits that are complimentary and design my own crossing road-map. That's the fun before the actual begins - the road map is not set in stone, and I promise I won't be disappointed if the original objectives cannot be met and will be deviated...

After finishing the first St. Vincent run I will start with the BH and BKxEP seeds - to keep it simple and learn.

Many thanks for the support!!! :good:

dubi · Feb 18, 2021

You are welcome Felice,

Early Bubba Has was a particular Bubba Hash #64 female (iirc) crossed with green ErdPurt A parental plant. Early Bubba Hash had a stable 1:3 THC:CBD chemotype, of approx 4 % of THC and 12 % of CBD, it also showed the semi autoflowering ErdPurt tendencies, so it showed a a very early outdoor flowering onset, and early harvest too. A friend used to grow Early Bubba Hash extensively and legally from a selected clone, mainly to produce oil to treat a neuro degenerative illness of his dad, it worked great for him as a medicine.

It's quite easy to add CBD content to hybrids when doing ErdPurt outcrosses, but it doesn't happen 100 % of the times, offspring must be tested and analyzed at the lab for final conclusions.

Best wishes with the preservation of your St Vicent sativa!

I have some seeds from San Martin that a sailor friend brought me back, there are still very interesting pure sativa landrace populations in these Caribbean islands.

Felice · Feb 18, 2021

Thanks a lot mate, your feedback really helps a lot!

Have you tried already PCK x Tikal / Tikal x PCK?
Strawberry Tikal pheno x berry PCK sounds like good match terpene-wise (at least theoretically ;-) )

Cheers!
Felice

dubi · Feb 19, 2021

Hi Felice,

We have never tried a Tikal strawberry x PCK berry scented hybrid, but sounds delicious :yummy:

I encourage you to go for it!

Felice · Feb 19, 2021

dubi said:
Hi Felice,

We have never tried a Tikal strawberry x PCK berry scented hybrid, but sounds delicious I encourage you to go for it!

Will do amigo! Hope I find a strawberry pheno in my 6 Tikal beans

About the berry in PCK I'm not worried, that I will get :dance013:

Have a nice weekend!

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ACE crosses planned - what makes sense, what not?

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