paradoxlost
Member
I smoke at least 10 times more than what was described as chronic use in that study. Never had nausea a day in my life
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I smoke at least 10 times more than what was described as chronic use in that study. Never had nausea a day in my life
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
(Edit: Ignore this post. The 3.8 million Americans is a number referring to "Near daily smokers." The article is actually correct. *facepalm* Wow)
The New York Times article draws incorrect conclusions from the study. The study used 155 patients who used cannabis at least 20 times a month. Approximately 1/3rd of these 'heavy users' experienced CHS at least occasionally.
That's not 1/3rd of "cannabis users," so the 2.7M number is incorrect. No doubt there are still a very significant number of people affected, I just wanted to clarify the error there.
The New York Times article draws incorrect conclusions from the study. The study used 155 patients who used cannabis at least 20 times a month. Approximately 1/3rd of these 'heavy users' experienced CHS at least occasionally.
That's not 1/3rd of "cannabis users," so the 2.7M number is incorrect. No doubt there are still a very significant number of people affected, I just wanted to clarify the error there.
paradoxlost
Member
I'm sorry man, the N.Y. Times has also reported that marijuana causes people to turn into bats and fly around the room.
heatherlonglee
Active member
I googled for "male cannabis pollen" and stumbled on this. I was thinking of making a few seeds but this decided to side track me for today 
Cannabis sativa: the unconventional “weed” allergen
Department of Allergy/Immunology, Wilford Hall Ambulatory Surgical Center, San Antonio, Texas
www.annallergy.org/article/S1081-1206(15)00035-6/pdf
Haven't read the entire thing but seems to suggest that high use marijuana users fail some pin prick test thing higher than non smokers?
Also a small excerpt from web link below.
"Inhibition immunoblot testing demonstrated cross-reactivity of Cannabis extracts with fruit (peach and tomato) and pollens (mugwort and plane tree).
Ebo et al30 further suggested allergic cross-reactivity to fruits, vegetables, and nuts and the possibility of a “cannabiseplant food syndrome” in a group of Belgian patients. In this study, Cannabis- sensitive patients frequently demonstrated allergies to foods (banana, tomato, citrus, and grapefruit) not typically associated with Bet v 1erelated food pollen syndrome, as would otherwise be expected in this and other areas of northern Europe."
Nothing about Neem in this study from Nov 2014
Cannabis sativa: the unconventional “weed” allergen
Department of Allergy/Immunology, Wilford Hall Ambulatory Surgical Center, San Antonio, Texas
www.annallergy.org/article/S1081-1206(15)00035-6/pdf
Haven't read the entire thing but seems to suggest that high use marijuana users fail some pin prick test thing higher than non smokers?
Also a small excerpt from web link below.
"Inhibition immunoblot testing demonstrated cross-reactivity of Cannabis extracts with fruit (peach and tomato) and pollens (mugwort and plane tree).
Ebo et al30 further suggested allergic cross-reactivity to fruits, vegetables, and nuts and the possibility of a “cannabiseplant food syndrome” in a group of Belgian patients. In this study, Cannabis- sensitive patients frequently demonstrated allergies to foods (banana, tomato, citrus, and grapefruit) not typically associated with Bet v 1erelated food pollen syndrome, as would otherwise be expected in this and other areas of northern Europe."
Nothing about Neem in this study from Nov 2014
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
Neem isn't in the study, because it has no bearing on the discussion here. The study covers standard allergies with cannabis pollen and cannabis itself. It's a rather naive study, in my opinion. I'd love to go over the construction and execution of it.
I'll say this as politely as I can....
IF YOU ARE NOT A PART OF THE SOLUTION
YOU ARE A PART OF THE PROBLEM!
You seem to be here, in this thread, for one reason...
To argue with Doug
You seem to have no other interest in the subject so why keep up the banter?
You are NOT refuting ANYTHING... You ARE arguing to argue!
Due to such... I no longer want to see your posts... IGNORE!!!
G
GatorGumbo
At any rate, neem is suspected to be related to CHS symptoms, this is based on both anecdotal and empirical evidence. There doesn't seem to be anything but anecdotal evidence that it isn't related, but of course the burden of proof is on the doubt since it's obscure and of limited scope
No grower in their right mind will agree that it is ethical to risk a client's health without knowing 100%, but if you grow for yourself and it's gravy then who cares. I personally don't use it, but I know many growers do in spite of reservations their customers may have about the issue.
No grower in their right mind will agree that it is ethical to risk a client's health without knowing 100%, but if you grow for yourself and it's gravy then who cares. I personally don't use it, but I know many growers do in spite of reservations their customers may have about the issue.
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
I've heard mention of a few studies being done on neem/aza and the link to CHS symptoms. Anyone know who these people are or the progress of them? I've been looking and apparently am not aware of the proper jargon, because my efforts are turning up nothing.
Somatek
Active member
Challenging opinions based on low quality info is being part of the solution. After reading the thread I see a lot of assumptions and personal opinions from Douglas Curtis without any references to back it up. OzzieAI has consistently back his views with references to credible sources and provided many opportunities for Douglas to do the same but instead it's just more opinions or assumptions.
paradoxlost
Member
No dude you are the only one who thinks that neem causes CHS. No where else in the world is there a mouth or keyboard or pen that is saying that. You have not added one outside source of evidence in this thread. shut the fuck up you shill.
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
I post what I know, which is information which has been personally tested by myself. (Have you personally grown and tested aza and cannabis? Have you experienced CHS? Do you really feel qualified?) In each case I've come across someone looking for help I have suggested removing neem/aza as their solution. In only 2 cases have I seen where aza/neem did not seem to be the issue. After personally running trials myself and spending the last 7 years paying attention to the issue online and in those around me, I would definitely say I have an educated opinion on the subject.
OA has consistently provided references to poor quality studies, studies which were not well designed. They're obviously angry and have not provided anything useful to the aza issue in some time. The fact there are no 'credible' studies to refer to makes it difficult for both sides. I feel for their ignorance, but will not be goaded into taking them off my ignore list.
I've provided plenty of the best available information there is. The anecdotal evidence from the population is overwhelming for a 'non-issue.' The medical establishment has zero incentive for fixing this issue. Why would they? It's much more profitable to dole out opiates and anti-nausea meds which don't work for years. Heck, from what I can tell there's a small fortune to be made in gall bladder removals. All kinds of issues which can be treated for years, or simply stopped by removing aza from these's people's cannabis.
Again, if 99.9% of the people suffering from "CHS" are seeing relief from not using neem/aza cannabis, (while still using **significant** amounts of clean cannabis) why is whether aza is an issue still a debate? Ceasing using tainted cannabis causes the issue to disappear in all but an almost insignificant number of cases. It's NOT the cannabis.
paradoxlost
Member
I post what I know, which is information which has been personally tested by myself. (Have you personally grown and tested aza and cannabis? Have you experienced CHS? Do you really feel qualified?) In each case I've come across someone looking for help I have suggested removing neem/aza as their solution. In only 2 cases have I seen where aza/neem did not seem to be the issue. After personally running trials myself and spending the last 7 years paying attention to the issue online and in those around me, I would definitely say I have an educated opinion on the subject.
OA has consistently provided references to poor quality studies, studies which were not well designed. They're obviously angry and have not provided anything useful to the aza issue in some time. The fact there are no 'credible' studies to refer to makes it difficult for both sides. I feel for their ignorance, but will not be goaded into taking them off my ignore list.
I've provided plenty of the best available information there is. The anecdotal evidence from the population is overwhelming for a 'non-issue.' The medical establishment has zero incentive for fixing this issue. Why would they? It's much more profitable to dole out opiates and anti-nausea meds which don't work for years. Heck, from what I can tell there's a small fortune to be made in gall bladder removals. All kinds of issues which can be treated for years, or simply stopped by removing aza from these's people's cannabis.
Again, if 99.9% of the people suffering from "CHS" are seeing relief from not using neem/aza cannabis, (while still using **significant** amounts of clean cannabis) why is whether aza is an issue still a debate? Ceasing using tainted cannabis causes the issue to disappear in all but an almost insignificant number of cases. It's NOT the cannabis.
If we are going based off of personal experience, I have been growing weed for 5 years. I have used neem and karanja in my soil mix, as well as off and on spraying my plants with. I have smoked my weed in every concievable way. I have made edibles with my weed. I have made rosin with my weed and dabbed the concentrated form of my weed. No CHS symptoms. I worked for a recreational weed company in vegas. We sprayed with neem. I smoked that weed, as well as everyone who worked there. No CHS symptoms. You are spreading misinformation you shill.
I agree with this statement. Read information with a critical perception. Approach statements with healthy skepticism.
Is there some data you collected, including test results eluded to earlier in the thread which are available to view?
Douglas.Curtis
Autistic Diplomat in Training
Not to be an ass but... Empty a bucket of water over your head. Did you get wet? Record your data. Now tip an empty bucket over your head. Did you get wet? Record your data. Now, do you show someone a sheet of paper with your 'data' on it, or do you simply tell people... "If you pour water on your head you're going to get wet. I did the test."
No aza in the control cannabis, no CHS symptoms. Yes aza in the treated cannabis, yes CHS symptoms. It's literally black and white. The increasing number of growers with vanishing CHS symptoms, when they quit using neem/aza, supports this 100%.
The interesting thing is... I'm the only one I know of who's deliberately put together and completed a test with controls. "I" know wtf is going on here. Where are the others who've done the same? How much credit do you give someone, when they're arguing with you on a subject they have no experience with?
Many are quick to dismiss my test results, yet my test is the only one I know of based on cannabis + neem + people. Where is the accredited study on cannabis + neem + people you can point to and say "See... it's safe!!" There aren't any.
Somatek
Active member
If you're "test results" amount to you asserting that you've personally helped lots of people by treating their CHS, but none of those people are stepping forward to corroborate you're story; people are going to be skeptical. Especially when two members have spoken up in this thread talking about how they suffered CHS while smoking weed grown without Neem/azadirachtin.
You dismiss accredited studies and articles without offering any deep criticism of why the studies are poorly designed. The argument that smoking is a different mode of ingestion and could potentially make azadirachtin stronger is weak considering how unstable it is. It's just as likely that it'd be lost to pyrolysis. There are just too many variables that are unaccounted for and basing the argument of unconfirmed assumptions isn't convincing. Especially when you don't acknowledge or address contradictory info but dismiss it outright without explanation.
You mentioned reputable studies are being done that'll confirm your results; where and by who?
You dismiss accredited studies and articles without offering any deep criticism of why the studies are poorly designed. The argument that smoking is a different mode of ingestion and could potentially make azadirachtin stronger is weak considering how unstable it is. It's just as likely that it'd be lost to pyrolysis. There are just too many variables that are unaccounted for and basing the argument of unconfirmed assumptions isn't convincing. Especially when you don't acknowledge or address contradictory info but dismiss it outright without explanation.
You mentioned reputable studies are being done that'll confirm your results; where and by who?
Somatek
Active member
That's not how science works. We test hypothesis based on corrolations; the biggest correlation that's consistent in all the studies is that stopping smoking cannabis stops CHS. If toxicologists thought there was validity in the theory that neem oil was the cause I'm sure it'd be studied but to my knowledge no one is looking at it as the cause. The burden of proof is on you to show a link and so far you haven't, other then through making assumptions that may or may not be true.
Which is why it's patently false to assert "neem equals poison". Any potential value is clouded over by the obvious lack of facts and reliance on assumptions to prove your point.
paradoxlost
Member
This has been vehemently refuted by many people in this thread who did the test of stopping using neem and CHS symptoms didn't go away, use neem and don't have CHS symptoms, etc. You keep repeating the same thing over and over again and just ignoring other people or telling them their studies are wrong, despite the fact they actually post studies.
Like you are thick enough to argue that other people are posting flawed studies and you don't have to post studies because you allegedly did a study at some point.
You're like Donald Trump with the double speak you shill.
You should be banned, not for spreading misinformation but for trolling. It'd be akin to banning a flat earth shill in an astrophysics forum. Mods?
