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HELP, Can't get Shadder, what am I doing Wrong

NorPene Solutions

NorPene Solutions

Member
I am using a vac chamber with heat around 105-115. The run is now at 50 hours and I still can not get it to release from the silicone mat. Even with putting it in the freezer it will not stiffening up enough, it is still very pliable and sticky and adheres to the mat even after a long freeze. I have been unable to flip it as of yet, even with pulling the mat around/across a sharp corner, it still will not pop it loose.

Any thought or pointers would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks:tiphat:
 
icdog

icdog

Member
Much depends on material, how it was extracted and how it was handled after.

Did you get that unit yet?
 
Gray Wolf

Gray Wolf

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mrsmarybrown said:
I am using a vac chamber with heat around 105-115. The run is now at 50 hours and I still can not get it to release from the silicone mat. Even with putting it in the freezer it will not stiffening up enough, it is still very pliable and sticky and adheres to the mat even after a long freeze. I have been unable to flip it as of yet, even with pulling the mat around/across a sharp corner, it still will not pop it loose.

Any thought or pointers would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks:tiphat:
Click to expand...

More information needed on the starting material and process.

Are you sure your oil is at 105/115F, or is that the temperature of the pot?
 
F

flatslabs

Member
Did you put a bunch of butane laden oil on a silicone pad? It may have dissolved in a little bit if so and is stuck in there.
 
NorPene Solutions

NorPene Solutions

Member
Well, it obviously is not going to finish off. I believe the starting material is at fault. The same material when heat purged for oil makes a very thin, easily spreadable, glossy oil. Even after over 50 hours under full, heated vacuum the end product was like a viscous, jelly like oil, that is easily spread on a rolling paper but it still has butane left in after the 50 hours. What gives?

My only option now, to make it safe for consumption is, I will have to scrape it into my SS bowl and heat purge it under higher heat, the rest of the way to finish it off like I would for my normal Honey Oil. Oh well better go make it safe.
 
NorPene Solutions

NorPene Solutions

Member
icdog said:
Much depends on material, how it was extracted and how it was handled after.

Did you get that unit yet?
Click to expand...

Yes, it has to be the material. It was dried to smokable weight and then frozen. The same material does make phenomenal but very thin, glossy, Honey Oil though! And now as I finished off purging this batch over into oil it has turned out, Absolutely SUPERB!!! This holiday season is going to a very Merry, Merry Christmas for me, I love my HO. So not all is lost. I'm a heavy smoker and this stuff is amazing and it takes a lot to get me to say that. Made it out of our own Canadian Cush.

Merry Christmas to All!:tiphat:
 
NorPene Solutions

NorPene Solutions

Member
I believe the problem is solved. WATER! I just dabbed a big blob on a pin and hit it with a lighter. It bubbled away with a nice smoke but there was no gas vapors catching flame until the oil heated up sufficiently enough to catch fire. Does that mean the starting material was too fresh and not dry enough?
 
Pangea

Pangea

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What variety? Was it very terpenous? How wet was the herb or trim?

Ive got a few strains that will stay a very runny liquidy due to high terp levels. Sure you can heat/vac em off to get a pull snap consistency but I like terpenes.

Play around with a small amount of it try a little warmer to see if you can get it harder...
 
Gray Wolf

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mrsmarybrown said:
I believe the problem is solved. WATER! I just dabbed a big blob on a pin and hit it with a lighter. It bubbled away with a nice smoke but there was no gas vapors catching flame until the oil heated up sufficiently enough to catch fire. Does that mean the starting material was too fresh and not dry enough?
Click to expand...

Water produces a fire dance when you stick a blob directly into the flame and let it burn off.

BHO has water content from the starting material, even if dried to only 10%. It is typically removed along with residual solvent after extraction.

Freezing the material and chilling the butane below the freezing point of water, will reduce pickup considerably.

At 115F and -29.5" Hg, the larger and irregular sized bubbles that you see, are both solvent and water vapor coming out of solution.
 
Gray Wolf

Gray Wolf

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mrsmarybrown said:
Well, it obviously is not going to finish off. I believe the starting material is at fault. The same material when heat purged for oil makes a very thin, easily spreadable, glossy oil. Even after over 50 hours under full, heated vacuum the end product was like a viscous, jelly like oil, that is easily spread on a rolling paper but it still has butane left in after the 50 hours. What gives?

My only option now, to make it safe for consumption is, I will have to scrape it into my SS bowl and heat purge it under higher heat, the rest of the way to finish it off like I would for my normal Honey Oil. Oh well better go make it safe.
Click to expand...

Is that the temperature of the puddle, or the chamber?

Is the puddle fully melted and readily releasing bubbles at that temperature and vacuum level?

After 50 hours at 115F, under -29.5" Hg, there should be no solvent or water left.

Decarboxylation turns the resin into a looser oilier consistency.

How aromatic is it after 50 hours? The monoterpenes are a solvent to the diterpene cananbinoids, and will make the combined essential oil looser.
 
BigJohnny

BigJohnny

Member
I'm going to have to watch this thread, we're haaving a similar problem except that we just want harder stuff.

We've got some people who want "jolly rancher" hard shatter but everything we've produced so far has taffy-like, but stable, and some will snap slightly.

How the hell do we get this jolly rancher hard stuff that IVe seen other people produce?
 
touringfunkband

touringfunkband

Active member
For some reason not every strain will stabilize to a shatter like you're looking to achieve, and some strains need to be purged at a drastically different temp then others to achieve the same consistently.

If you're looking to produce shatter regularly your really putting yourself through a lot of extra work if you don't have a vac oven. One of the key factors is getting that low temp required and have it be near scientifically stable at that temp.
 
NorPene Solutions

NorPene Solutions

Member
Gray Wolf said:
Is that the temperature of the puddle, or the chamber?

Is the puddle fully melted and readily releasing bubbles at that temperature and vacuum level?

After 50 hours at 115F, under -29.5" Hg, there should be no solvent or water left.

Decarboxylation turns the resin into a looser oilier consistency.

How aromatic is it after 50 hours? The monoterpenes are a solvent to the diterpene cananbinoids, and will make the combined essential oil looser.
Click to expand...

Yes, I was shooting the temp directly off the top of the melted puddle. It actually was probably more averaging the 108-110 mark. I was taking the lid off and shooting the puddle directly.

After the 50 hours it was extremely aromatic. An absolutely, beautiful, exotic floral scent, both by smell and taste once smoked. After I added high heat with a flame to evaporate or purge whatever contaminants that remained in the material, it lost both its beautiful aroma and degraded its high.
 
Gray Wolf

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mrsmarybrown said:
Yes, I was shooting the temp directly off the top of the melted puddle. It actually was probably more averaging the 108-110 mark. I was taking the lid off and shooting the puddle directly.

After the 50 hours it was extremely aromatic. An absolutely, beautiful, exotic floral scent, both by smell and taste once smoked. After I added high heat with a flame to evaporate or purge whatever contaminants that remained in the material, it lost both its beautiful aroma and degraded its high.
Click to expand...

Fresh material starts out as carboxylic acid, which is stiff and brittle at ambient temperatures.

Besides heat, the things that give an oleoresin a lower viscosity, are retained solvent, including water, high terpene levels, plant waxes, and decarboxylation.

Older material can be decarboxylated or partially so, as a function of aging and drying.

After 50 hours at ~105/115F under vacuum, your solvent and water content should be very low. Do I understand correctly that there is no fire dance when you touch a sample to direct flame?

High aromatics suggests high terpene levels, which could be a factor.

Aged and naturally decarboxylated material usually also loses aromatics as a function of drying. Doesn't sound like yours was excessively dry, as it was aromatic, but may have been partially decarboxylated. How old was it?

Plant waxes don't make an oleoresin goopy, they make it softer so it bends instead of breaks.

How would you best describe your oil?
 
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