Clones getting burned and dying from ph or nutrients?

jonhova · Feb 4, 2017

This is my second batch of clones that have shown the exact same symptoms. The go from growing regularly to being stunted. The clones get very yellow and dry and eventually just die.

These are Black Cherry Soda fresh cuts in rockwool. I had black diamond which seems more sativa leaning and it never even sprouted any roots. DOA.
I really didnt want rockwool but the guy i got them from wanted to cut me for asking for them without rockwool.

First try

My first attempt I used kelloggs organic plus mix with ewc, kelp meal, rice hulls, and lava rocks.

I overwatered for sure. Every other day.

Second try

This time I used rice hulls and ewc 50%/50%. A pinch of crab meal, a pinch of kelp meal, a pinch of gypsum and a pinch of neem meal. I wanted to play it really cautiously.

I watered when it was really dry every 4-5 days.
Water quality

My local surface water is around 7.9 PH.

The ground water average 7.6 PH.

Here's some pictures.

Clone 1

The roots are growing pretty good.

Clone 2

Roots stopped growing and top growth stopped

Proposed solution
I either need something to buffer my soil like agricultural lime to help over the long term or get ph down and some a ph pen or strips

Am i on the right track? I just want to grow some herb :frown:

Lester Beans · Feb 4, 2017

It looks like a pH problem. Definitely get yourself a pH pen or drops along with some pH up and down.

My guess is you need to raise the pH. Looks like something is going on with your ca, mg, and k.

Keep us posted

Big CLones · Feb 4, 2017

In the sort of stuff you are using....maybe not my first choice.....

Your plants will do best in slighly acidic medium and water.....

If You use some nice ph adjusted spring water from any of a zillion stores....

your luck will change.... guaran...fucking....teed....

jonhova · Feb 5, 2017

Big CLones said:
In the sort of stuff you are using....maybe not my first choice.....

Your plants will do best in slighly acidic medium and water.....

If You use some nice ph adjusted spring water from any of a zillion stores....

your luck will change.... guanan...fucking....teed....

I think you are right. I will get some RO water and buy this to ph the water. I was stubborn about being organic and look where it got me :laughing:

jidoka · Feb 5, 2017

you have too muck k and no where near enough ca. gotta pay attention to what those worms get fed

do you even know if your media is acid/base? if you dont toss that coin and then wish in one hand, shit in the other and good luck what it tastes lijr

Big CLones · Feb 5, 2017

jonhova said:
I think you are right. I will get some RO water and buy this to ph the water. I was stubborn about being organic and look where it got me

My suggestion would be to keep it between 6.0 and 6.5 for soil....

BurnOne · Feb 5, 2017

Use LC's Mix and watch for damping off.
Burn1

MedResearcher · Feb 6, 2017

Agree with Burn1, use a simple proven mix.

That second mix you listed seems really incomplete or all around off. You want the liming to be ballpark for sure, and 50/50 casting/drainage is going to be a odd consistency and your relying heavily on the castings being great. Good chance your first mix was closer but the over watering did it in. Plenty of nice simple easy mix's to copy in the organic section. Choose a simple one that you can source the components and give it another try.

Also, noticed the home made pots. Which can be a cheap/free alternative, make sure you are putting sufficient drain holes. If the bottom half is staying soggy, the roots will never go down there and slowly die. Wouldn't hurt to get a few real pots, I like to start in 1 gallons, but 1/2 gallon might be a bit easier for not over watering. Feel the pot full of dry soil, then after a watering feel it again. Then you can use the weight to check if its close to water time again.

Want moist soil, not dry, not soggy. Twenty years later, and I still tend to over water a bit. A lot easier when you can pick up the container and feel the weight.

Gl,
Mr^^

Moonjuice5050 · Feb 6, 2017

jidoka said:
you have too muck k and no where near enough ca. gotta pay attention to what those worms get fed
Why are you saying he doesn't have enough CA?, I think a pinch of what you gave them would be great, just focusing on letting your pots dry out more before watering will help you alot, might take another week for them to start growing again, but yeah the ewc and kelp will get them going strong

jonhova · Feb 6, 2017

MedResearcher said:
Agree with Burn1, use a simple proven mix.

That second mix you listed seems really incomplete or all around off. You want the liming to be ballpark for sure, and 50/50 casting/drainage is going to be a odd consistency and your relying heavily on the castings being great. Good chance your first mix was closer but the over watering did it in. Plenty of nice simple easy mix's to copy in the organic section. Choose a simple one that you can source the components and give it another try.

Also, noticed the home made pots. Which can be a cheap/free alternative, make sure you are putting sufficient drain holes. If the bottom half is staying soggy, the roots will never go down there and slowly die. Wouldn't hurt to get a few real pots, I like to start in 1 gallons, but 1/2 gallon might be a bit easier for not over watering. Feel the pot full of dry soil, then after a watering feel it again. Then you can use the weight to check if its close to water time again.

Want moist soil, not dry, not soggy. Twenty years later, and I still tend to over water a bit. A lot easier when you can pick up the container and feel the weight.

Gl,
Mr^^

im gonna do the same mix as i originally had but this time use dolomite lime @ 1 table spoon per gallon.

i think considering my water situation it will buffer the soil really well and keep the ph in a nice range. my pots are just starter pots instead of solo cups so i could see the roots if they were stalling or actually growing.

i have smart pots i intend to transfer to and they do have holes for proper drainage.

truck · Feb 6, 2017

its the rice hulls. top dress with worm castings, they are stealing the nitrogen from the soil to break down as they are organic matter. you need ample amounts of Nitrogen in the form of organic material and Calcium to offset the issue. Oyster shell works great, i'd stay away from lime unless you can let a soil cook for 2 months. Or find a media that has already been limed. just my 2 cents.

truck · Feb 6, 2017

this is only true if you happen to not be over watering. You may try replanting into new media and a completely blacked out pot. Roots don't like light. another 2 cents for ya...lol

Moonjuice5050 · Feb 7, 2017

truck said:
this is only true if you happen to not be over watering. You may try replanting into new media and a completely blacked out pot. Roots don't like light. another 2 cents for ya...lol

Please explain how these "rice hulls" that are dead already are stealing nitrogen to "breakdown" if anything the rice hulls would be retaining water becoming waterlogged furthermore making your roots rot and die the main issue here isn't the soil mix it's the 02 getting to the roots, make sure you have plenty of drainage holes

jonhova · Feb 7, 2017

Moonjuice5050 said:
Please explain how these "rice hulls" that are dead already are stealing nitrogen to "breakdown" if anything the rice hulls would be retaining water becoming waterlogged furthermore making your roots rot and die the main issue here isn't the soil mix it's the 02 getting to the roots, make sure you have plenty of drainage holes

i took a look at this thread here and i read some stuff on grasscity with the original no till thread where Coot/wetdog? recommends dolomite lime heavily. on the no till revisited they dropped it from the mix and the LC mixes burnone recommended has lime included.

I really think my water is fucked up cuz there no reason a rice hull and ewc should be causing problems to baby clones within 3 weeks.

jonhova · Feb 7, 2017

Moonjuice5050 said:
jidoka said:

you have too muck k and no where near enough ca. gotta pay attention to what those worms get fed
Why are you saying he doesn't have enough CA?, I think a pinch of what you gave them would be great, just focusing on letting your pots dry out more before watering will help you alot, might take another week for them to start growing again, but yeah the ewc and kelp will get them going strong

Click to expand...

yea man i pretty much watered with water only and kelp maybe once or twice with aloe vera juice and it still looks worse and growth gets stunted at week 3.

DocTim420 · Feb 7, 2017

Try doing a batch using straight ProMix BX that is moistened with pure water...nothing else, and see what you get. If you have success with this simple mix...then you know what it isn't. If the problems repeat--then you have more than a simple problem that can be fixed with a "dash of this...and a dash of that".

The water ratio I use for the ProMix BX medium is about 35%....100ml of lightly packed ProMix BX receives 35ml of water (de-chlorinated of course), mix it well, and let it sit overnight before using--then fluff it up before using.

Maybe it is the environment, lighting, or??

Sometimes working with "virgin babies"...less is best.

truck · Feb 7, 2017

The rice hulls only steal it per se, The soil is alive and requires good amounts of Nitrogen and calcium in order to break down the rice hulls, that N and Ca that is feeding the microbes is not all going to the plant. the proper ratio of N:Ca allows for a greater exchange between the soil, the microbes, and the plant. As the rice hulls break down they do the opposite of help drainage, or if they are in the wrong ratio in the soil, they actually begin to compact or float over time and hold too much water causing root rot. I've played with rice hulls and got burned adding them into my mixes like i would perlite or growstone. I only like composting them into my soil and allowing at least 2 month for them to break down into my soil. As i recycle my soil i find growstone is the best option for me for aeration and Si as it is just expanded recycled glass, it doesn't break down or get pulverized into dust during heavy mixing through a machine, or blow away in the wind when its outside. I think rice hulls are a great addition to any soil, just takes some getting use to how to use them properly. I've decided to just play it safe like i said an let them compost long before i use the soil now and i don't plan on adding any back into my soil for the time being since growstone seems to fix most my issues i'm finding with recycling my soil and running it through a mixing machine.

DocTim420 · Feb 7, 2017

Or burn em....rice hull ash is extremely high in amorphous Si--just like bamboo ash.

Can't imagine me "cooking soil" the same time duration that I veg plants...just so rice hulls can breakdown...time is money.

Being perpetual I pull a harvest every week-10 days and imagine the space required to have different batches sitting for few months to cook...8 weeks = 8 batches. 10 plants per batch--at 5 gallons per plant, that equates to 50 gallons per batch or 400 gallons for 8 batches. Talk about a big foot print....hmmm.

IMO, replacing inputs (kelp meal, rice hulls, etc) that take an extraordinary long time to breakdown with ones that have a shorter time--this long "cooking time" thing can easily be avoided. I use the grow medium's pH as my indicator--once it rises to 6.5 or so...I am good to go--which usually takes about 10 days or so to "cook". Also...grinding certain inputs to a fine talcum-like powder decreases the decomposition time considerably (since the time it takes for a nitrogen rich input to become Plant Available is similar to it's decomposition rate). Think chunk vs particle--which will fully decompose the soonest?

jonhova · Feb 7, 2017

DocTim420 said:
Try doing a batch using straight ProMix BX that is moistened with pure water...nothing else, and see what you get. If you have success with this simple mix...then you know what it isn't. If the problems repeat--then you have more than a simple problem that can be fixed with a "dash of this...and a dash of that".

The water ratio I use for the ProMix BX medium is about 35%....100ml of lightly packed ProMix BX receives 35ml of water (de-chlorinated of course), mix it well, and let it sit overnight before using--then fluff it up before using.

Maybe it is the environment, lighting, or??

Sometimes working with "virgin babies"...less is best.

Ill be trying promix next. It has everything i need and some lime. @mountainorganics said eco scraps can kill plants so ill drop that as well for this test.

Big CLones · Feb 7, 2017

jonhova said:
Ill be trying promix next. It has everything i need and some lime. @mountainorganics said eco scraps can kill plants so ill drop that as well for this test.

Great idea.....

I use promix.... water and jacks with calcium nitrate.... search on jacks....

Its bulletproof....

Lots of guys use that fert...... and its cheap too.....

Clones getting burned and dying from ph or nutrients?

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