Homemade designer extracts - adding terpenoids

Good day ICMag!
I tried searching but couldn't find a thread that really related to the topic.

While yet again reading through the Russo article about the entourage effect (link in my sig), a question popped in my mind when he mentions designer extracts as being the future of cannabis based medicines.

Now I'm sure extracting pure cannabinoids isn't really that feasible in a home setting so playing around with the actual cannabinoid ratios is pretty limited. However the fun doesn't end there. Terpenoids are also recognized for their entourage effect. I think terpenoids are unregulated in most areas so has anyone tried enhancing their extracts?

The terpenoids I would consider of primary interest would be:

• Mycrene (Linked with the couch-lock effect, Sedative - synergistic with THC)
• Limonene (Antidepressant, anti-anxiety - synergistic with CBD)
• Linalool (Sedative - THC, Anti-anxiety - CBD,CGB?)
• Nerolidol (Sedative - THC,CBN)
• · α-Pinene (inhibits the enzyme that breaks down acetylcholine, a neurotransmitter involved in memory - CBD, THC?, Anti-inflammatory - CBD, Bronchodilatory - THC)

Most of them are monoterpenes that are the first to go during heating and extraction. Wouldn't it be nice to add what has been lost (or was never there)?


So first of all - Is it even possible?

For clarity, let's look at a specific example: adding linalool to your extract.

We need to figure out 2 things first:

1. How much linalool should we add?
2. How will we add it?

I'll try to ballpark the first question. In the Russo article they claim that terpenoids account for only 1% of the weight when cannabis is tested but 10% of the weight within the trichome. Since the ratio of terpenoids is pretty small we could add about 0,1g of linalool to around 10g oil. That would represent 1% of the weight and could result in notable differences of the effect.

Now regarding the how part... I'm not really sure at all. Linalool is liquid at room temperature but will it mix and stay within the extract?
My first idea would be to heat the extract to get it nice and runny, then add the linalool, mix and let it cool down again. Surely that will result in some evaporation due to the temperature.

Perhaps a more sophisticated method could be used where a solvent is used to dissolve the extract and then add the linalool and evaporate the solvent. Then again with the evaporation of the solvent, much of the linalool would evaporate as well?

As you can see I'm just throwing out some ideas to get the ball rolling. If you think something wouldn't work or if I've made some mistakes or don't understand something and am mistaken, please correct me and encourage discussion. If you think this is one of those 'stoner ideas' and is not plausible, speak up! If you think this is interesting chime in and throw some ideas around. Ask questions. I'm here to learn and hopefully so are you - the community gains nothing if there is no discussion.


Regards,
Dysnomia

sounds interesting
im def lurkin

Ive considered this myself for adding flavor and smell back to my ultra pure hexane hash oil but I go through alot to remove the terpenes in the first place. Its insanely expensive but you dont need much, consider hemp flower essential oil from online. you can also try hops flower essential oil. Both are mixtures that replicate skunk weeds terpene profile. Remember terpenes add to the high a little and are only present in small amounts.

I never did it but I would add a tiny amount of methanol to the hash oil and essential oils and mix well then use a dinner plate or something else to eapotate the methanol away with a large surface area and not heat. You will lose terpenes no matter what if you use a solvent so some would need to be added for "loss".

If your good at mixing well you dont need solent but the larger the batch the less pratical stiring by hand becomes. Large batches need to be warmed and stirred on a hotplate-stirrer from a lab if not using solvent.

If you want to keep your weeds taste steam distill the plant matter you make your hash from to get your essential oil, dry the plant matter and process as normal then add your oils back together.

I also find it interesting and perspective direction to create new flavors and tastes,
which are not directly offered by nature of cannabis.

There are many attractive fragrances that I would not mind to try with dub.

I once observed how a very strong foreign flavor attacked a solid piece of AA when I put it in a jar with ONA,
it is fragrance, odor neutralizer, looks like wax, smells like toilet soap, at room temperature evaporates or sublimates with almost no residue.

After lying in such atmosphere stone AA soften, became sticky and accepted this smell, which then gave back with every dub.
Natural tones of odors were completely replaced.

high disomnia!

sounds like a good idea, BUT never forget, once you start "designing" medicine, the main problem will be following: "every patients endocannabinoid system" and metabolism work differently, hence, one would have to prepare custom formulations for each patient!!! (talk about design, testing, redesigning, etc...) there is SOOOO much work which i bet IS gonna be done, but most likely and sadly, not by folks with a genuine interest in the effects of our favorite plant, but by skilled folks, who most likely wont have a similar mindset... -> where shit might go awfully wrong... (my 50 cent to it)

blessss
ps.: and, yepp i am paranoid...

I am down. Peace GS

d-limonene would be the best place to start, its easy to buy natural and pure, its already in some weed, and it adds to the high with a orange taste.

Where does the adultering end? Does olivetol have psycho-activity? poppy extracts taste good and are active. see the downside no limits. Great for personal bad when people buy it thinking its just good hash.

As far as taloring oit to the patient wouldnt it be easier to go to your "lab" and make changes on a gram scale than breeding and growing to talor a plant to what is in your own words "every patients endocannabinoid system" and metabolism work differently, hence, one would have to prepare custom formulations (plants) for each patient!!! (talk about design, testing, redesigning, etc...) there is SOOOO much work

my point is if your not taloring plants why do you need to talor hash? isn't the point to have different flavors without growing many different kinds and making all those seperate batches of hash?

If you make a bad batch couldnt you just heat it until the smell goes away? seems fool proof

a-pinene where would you get it besides french turpentine, i think its french, either way only certian turpentine has a-pinene. i belive canadiam buslum wood oil might have it also, its been a while since I considered this.

I never went through with it because i dont smoke the oil most of the time I bake it.

Thanks for contributing!

pip313 said:

Its insanely expensive but you dont need much, consider hemp flower essential oil from online. you can also try hops flower essential oil.

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Hi Pip!

I found some hemp flower essential oil from a uk site for £13.99 for a 5ml bottle. 5ml is plenty to play around with. I wouldn't really say that's insanely expensive for initial testing. The thing is though that it's hard to find the exact composition so you don't really know what you're adding.

pip313 said:

I never did it but I would add a tiny amount of methanol to the hash oil and essential oils and mix well then use a dinner plate or something else to eapotate the methanol away with a large surface area and not heat. You will lose terpenes no matter what if you use a solvent so some would need to be added for "loss".

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Why methanol though? Methanol is rather toxic and simply evaporating it without heat would be somewhat risky and doesn't really invite for consumption. What other solvents would be suitable? What about acetone? *edit* In the case with linalool acetone would probably react to create an acetal with unknown properties.

pip313 said:

If you want to keep your weeds taste steam distill the plant matter you make your hash from to get your essential oil, dry the plant matter and process as normal then add your oils back together.

Click to expand...

I would not really consider this practical unless your operation is rather big. The yields for steam distillation are very small. And the smaller the quantity the higher % of loss in the process. The number that was thrown around was 1.5l per 1000kg of hemp. that's 1.5ml per kilo assuming we maintain efficiency. I'm not saying it cannot be done but considering you could save some of the terpenoids during regular extraction and add more - which is kind of what I'm thinking.

pip313 said:

d-limonene would be the best place to start, its easy to buy natural and pure, its already in some weed, and it adds to the high with a orange taste.

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There's one bump for limonene I can see.
Limonene is synergistic with CBD according to the Russo article though and the effects would perhaps be less noticeable because of the low levels of CBD? For just the scent, yes, why not. However I'm most interested in the subtle differences in the high-s. What makes afghanis stony and thais racy-clear and uplifting.

pip313 said:

If you make a bad batch couldnt you just heat it until the smell goes away? seems fool proof

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Seems like an interesting idea. I wonder if the process will affect the extract itself negatively though. Certainly an experiment to consider.

pip313 said:

a-pinene where would you get it besides french turpentine, i think its french, either way only certian turpentine has a-pinene. i belive canadiam buslum wood oil might have it also, its been a while since I considered this.

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This seems to be the main problem with this project at the moment. Is there a place where one could get pure terpenoids in small quantities?

jump117 said:

I also find it interesting and perspective direction to create new flavors and tastes,
which are not directly offered by nature of cannabis.

There are many attractive fragrances that I would not mind to try with dub.

I once observed how a very strong foreign flavor attacked a solid piece of AA when I put it in a jar with ONA,
it is fragrance, odor neutralizer, looks like wax, smells like toilet soap, at room temperature evaporates or sublimates with almost no residue.

After lying in such atmosphere stone AA soften, became sticky and accepted this smell, which then gave back with every dub.
Natural tones of odors were completely replaced.

Click to expand...

Hi Jump! Nice to have you in this discussion.
Interesting way of absorbtion! This is certainly hinting that simply mixing of the terpenoids into the extract could be plausible. Did you notice a change in subjective effects of the high?

purple_man said:

high disomnia!

sounds like a good idea, BUT never forget, once you start "designing" medicine, the main problem will be following: "every patients endocannabinoid system" and metabolism work differently, hence, one would have to prepare custom formulations for each patient!!! (talk about design, testing, redesigning, etc...) there is SOOOO much work which i bet IS gonna be done, but most likely and sadly, not by folks with a genuine interest in the effects of our favorite plant, but by skilled folks, who most likely wont have a similar mindset... -> where shit might go awfully wrong... (my 50 cent to it)

blessss
ps.: and, yepp i am paranoid...

Click to expand...

Hi Purpleman,
While everyone's endocannabinoid system is a little different I don't think focusing on anyone specific is the right way to proceed initially. We are still plenty similar and the differences are often blown out of proportion. In any case this project is about experimentation after all. Everyone is always looking for the best potion and it will come in time, I suppose... I bet the scientists currently involved in this research have quite a bit of insight already. To say they have no genuine interest is just absurd though. They have more interest in it than anyone else, it's their everyday life. Just my 50 cents.


Regards,
Dysnomia

Plant terpenes are used in essential oil aroma therapy.

An excellent easy to understand book on the subject is, The Chemistry of Essential Oils Made Simple, by Stewart, though he freely mixes in his religeous views in places.

We are doing nothing with the diterpene cannabinoids that they aren't doing with other plant terpenes. They are all absorbed through ingesting, the lungs, the skin, or suppositories.

I have done this with d-limonene and absolute amber many times for vaporizer pens.I needed to make it more runny so it would flow through the pens. I was trying to recreate puregold, a extraction found at many california dispensaries. I didn't notice a change in high, but you can taste the limonene whenever more than 5% is added. Between 5 and 10% seemed to be the sweet spot. Slow and low heat was the best way to mix them.

Thanks for the book recommendation GW! I'll see if I can manage to get my hands on it.

Hammalamma, that sounds exactly like what I had in mind. Thanks for sharing!

Methanol's toxicity is exaggerated at times I recomended it due to its low b.p. the higher the solvents b.p the more "loss" in added terpenes from the oil when evaporating. I make 100g batches of oil on average so I base the needing of solvent on that. Your size may be different but if it was benificial I would want all my hash like that so I never thought small which is what stoped me. Also supply and costs for a potential waste of time was too much for my broke butt.

you really dont want solvent of any kind but the stirring might get ridiculous in "dispensery" quantities. 5 grams would be easy obviuosly.

its cool someone does add limonene so thats a good place to start I might add the 5-10% just to thin the oil like he does.

If you want to do this i dont see you being sucessful without a excellent supplier or a lab distillation kit. Unless what gray wolf meant was individual pure terpenes are available. Care to clarify? I would go distillation. triple distill carefully and your "sources" open greatly. Lots of essential oils with 1 good many not so nice compounds but if they boil far enough apart its easy.

Your be glad you bought one once you start using it for hash oil and you can reuse solvents. I love my hexane oil myself.

pip313 said:

Methanol's toxicity is exaggerated at times I recomended it due to its low b.p. the higher the solvents b.p the more "loss" in added terpenes from the oil when evaporating. I make 100g batches of oil on average so I base the needing of solvent on that. Your size may be different but if it was benificial I would want all my hash like that so I never thought small which is what stoped me. Also supply and costs for a potential waste of time was too much for my broke butt.

you really dont want solvent of any kind but the stirring might get ridiculous in "dispensery" quantities. 5 grams would be easy obviuosly.

its cool someone does add limonene so thats a good place to start I might add the 5-10% just to thin the oil like he does.

If you want to do this i dont see you being sucessful without a excellent supplier or a lab distillation kit. Unless what gray wolf meant was individual pure terpenes are available. Care to clarify? I would go distillation. triple distill carefully and your "sources" open greatly. Lots of essential oils with 1 good many not so nice compounds but if they boil far enough apart its easy.

Your be glad you bought one once you start using it for hash oil and you can reuse solvents. I love my hexane oil myself.

Click to expand...

Some essential oils at http://www.newdirectionsaromatics.ca/

Thanks for the link GW! I'm going to try this out on some Bho soon.

Bump it!

It´s 2015 and a lot of things changed meanwhile in the terp game! I was thinking about to order one of those sample kits from

http://extractconsultants.com/product/terpene-sample-kit-consumer/

and try to experiment with some tinctures.

Is there any new information or even recipes for designer extracts/tinctures infused with terpenes?

Dysnomia mentioned a ratio about 1%, so can i add 1% Linalol plus 1% Beta-Caryphyllen to my tincture? Way to less, or way too much?

Will appreciate any new information!

Pastelero said:

Bump it!

It´s 2015 and a lot of things changed meanwhile in the terp game! I was thinking about to order one of those sample kits from

http://extractconsultants.com/product/terpene-sample-kit-consumer/

and try to experiment with some tinctures.

Is there any new information or even recipes for designer extracts/tinctures infused with terpenes?

Dysnomia mentioned a ratio about 1%, so can i add 1% Linalol plus 1% Beta-Caryphyllen to my tincture? Way to less, or way too much?

Will appreciate any new information!

Click to expand...

Thanks for bumping this old thread!

Yup, Extract Consultants is where we now get our essential oils and terpenes! They are the best source we've found yet.

Rob is extremely knowlegeable, being the third generation in the essential oil business.

so you would suggest just to contact him?
What are your experiences with ratios?
I would start first with infusing terps into my tinctures and then might try adding terps to my extracts. But focus lies on infused tinctures and ois!

Pastelero said:

so you would suggest just to contact him?
What are your experiences with ratios?
I would start first with infusing terps into my tinctures and then might try adding terps to my extracts. But focus lies on infused tinctures and ois!

Click to expand...

I suggest you start with Max, whom is the forth generation in the business at:

Max at Extract Consultants, LLC

Mail: PO Box 820212, Portland, OR 97282-1212
Phone: Max @ 574-309-7991
email: sales@extractconsultants.com


He can put you in touch with Rob, if he can't field your question.

For the most part, we aren't mixing in terpenes, we are researching their vapor and boiling points under vacuum, or in the case of Limonene, extracting with it.

Joe and I did some anecdotal research sniffing the discrete terpene bottles and noting aroma and effect. He confirmed my sniff test on b-Myrcene with a measured dosage, but I don't remember what he used.

In both cases we were couch locked, leaving no doubt as to the culprit. No energy or motivation.

Linalool also reduced my motivation, but not a lack of energy as much as lack of sense of urgency.

Skunk Pharm Research is planning a sniff display in our shared booth at the Portland High Times Cup, if they ever pin venue and date down, where ya'll can sniff the different terpenes to gain odor recognition, as well as effect in some cases like b-Myrcene.

We'll also have some other interesting experiments going, sooo ya'll might look for us and gain some first hand experience.

have you vaped just terpenes alone to see if it gets you high/stoned without thc?

ozza said:

have you vaped just terpenes alone to see if it gets you high/stoned without thc?

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I just sniffed it deeply, but Joe mixed and vaped a sample. The results were the same.

Define high/stoned. Some do induce an altered state of consciousness, and couch lock you. They are different effects than those produced by THC.