Please breeders we still want regular seeds too...

funkpew · Mar 24, 2012

Hey I am not sure where to post this but has anyone else noticed some top breeders ie (barney's farm & big buddha to name two) only offering feminized seed packs.
I don't know who I need to write or what but this is not a good thing.
Yes make feminized seeds available but keep the regular packs as well, how can I breed with all females. This move will create a bottle neck in the gene pool that available to use up & comers.
So maybe I missed the memo but I sure would love to get a regular pack of vanilla kush and violator kush.
Ok that's my rant anyone else feel the same?

BongRipkenJR. · Mar 24, 2012

I think a lot of breeders are moving to feminized seeds so people can't recreate their breeding projects. Not sure though.

BurrZurrKurr · Mar 24, 2012

If I were a professional breeder, a real breeder with sellable genetics I'd spent a great deal of time and money fine tuning, it would make sense to me NOT to release standard seeds of my work. Sell female seeds, you are selling to growers for crop maximization. Standard seeds just give both combinations to your "work safe", and pretty much take your involvement out of the equation. Maybe vastly oversimplified, but that's the way it appeared to me, based on your post.

northstate · Mar 24, 2012

If it really is something you care about preserving for everybody then you would release males too. Almost anybody can make fem seeds, not much skill is really needed for 1:1 not to take anything away from the new crop of "breeders" who do select and have a plan. Keeping the males just seems like you are in it for the money. To be clear I fully condone people keeping parents of lines and holding on to trade secrets and such, but F1's are not same thing. Just my opinion but I think most that work with the plant would want to give others the opportunity to explore down the line a little bit...DJ, Chimera, and Sam come to mind.NS

Tom Hill · Mar 24, 2012

If folk feel that there is a hole in the market then by all means fill it.

1rst) embrace reversal techniques if only to reveal homozygous individuals.

2nd) utilize these as recurrent parents in a backcrossing program as part of our bring back the Y crusade.

However fair warning, just as some accuse fem breeding as being a hack, or there only to take advantage of the clueless, the same argument might be more successfully made in the above type of project - ie there only to take advantage of the clueless - for we certainly do not require male/female seedlots to further explore down the line, to preserve germplasm, or any of that. -Tom

Still Invisible · Mar 24, 2012

There will always be a market for breeders making regular seeds; if people want them they will make them. I personally don't buy feminized seeds so the companies making them have lost my business.
They will only make feminized seeds if people are buying them.

Tech · Mar 24, 2012

thats their trademark for the product and to protect exclusivity...

whatsupdoc · Mar 24, 2012

Tech said:
thats their trademark for the product and to protect exclusivity...

Fuck everything about this.

Tom Hill · Mar 24, 2012

still patiently waiting for an INTELLIGENT argument against gynoecious selections?..... anybody?

SGS · Mar 24, 2012

I plan on releasing FEM Seeds one day, but keeping the seed line available in its natural from of both sexes is ver important to share your work with the world and its preservation. Im more then honored when other people choose to use my work in making new hybrids. All in all the companies that are seing FEM only versions of straina that once were available in regular form or just providing for the market as new growers and old, want to maximize space and time so FEM seeds are out selling reg seeds at the rate of 10 to 1. The profit margine is much higher for FEM seeds aswell.

FEM seeds have a purpose, and thats to produce high amounts of smoke without having to.deal with male plants which costs money, space, and time. So dont expect to find many regular seed lines in the future, only a few breeders will keep them around as they dont produce the profits FEM does. But be sure to support the ones that do.!!! They are keeping the gene pool alive and spreading there work throughout the world to be enjoyed for yrs to come.

SGS

SGS · Mar 24, 2012

TomHill said:
still patiently waiting for an INTELLIGENT argument against gynoecious selections?..... anybody?

Not against it , 100%for it. I have a line that is roughly 75-80% female, and would rather release populations like that instead of FEM seeds. That way it could be still continued on if the grower was lucky enough to find a male.

But not all hybrids show such high rate of natural female populations, so to use this instead of FEM beans isnt realistic, or far to much work to be involved to make them as such, when a single crop could produce more FEM beans then needed.

Good idea though Tom. It would be nice to see more seed line release this way.

SGS

Tom Hill · Mar 24, 2012

Hi SGS, for me personally, if customers -and we're talking about would be breeders no less- can't find their way without males then I'm not too terribly concerned about cannabis' fate in the absence of their breeding input, quite seriously. -T

SGS · Mar 24, 2012

TomHill said:
Hi SGS, for me personally, if customers -and we're talking about would be breeders no less- can't find their way without males then I'm not too terribly concerned about cannabis' fate in the absence of their breeding input, quite seriously. -T

LOL WELL PUT LOL

SGS

OG.Gotti · Mar 24, 2012

I have alot more respect for a man like Shanti and his business practices, than someone like Arjan..

Morphote · Mar 24, 2012

TomHill said:
still patiently waiting for an INTELLIGENT argument against gynoecious selections?..... anybody?

I'll give it a try. It's all theoretical, of course. My theory would revolve around the idea of linked traits. I know Nevil believes that the males are responsible for the intersex trait/gene/allele. I don't believe that. I believe it is combinations that cause the expressions, and not one parent or the other. However, I do also think that the male could conceivably carry certain genes, which, if we make gynoecious selections only, then we could be accidentally selecting against traits/genes which are specifically linked to males. For instance, what if only males carry a certain gene which causes future progeny a higher percentage of mold resistant, disease resistant, heat resistant, etc.? We might not know this until it was too late. One or two generations down the line we could find that gynoecious lines are not as genetically strong as "natural" lines. Perhaps by failing to use males we are affecting males down the line and their ability to pass on desirable male traits to their "sons", inadvertantly affecting females and their desireable traits. What if we go back and try to reinvigorate the lines but we find that the males have lost genes which we selected against? My main concern is that males carry certain genes which are beneficial to the genus of cannabis, and that we are somehow crippling the future of this plant in exchange for immediate quantifyable results which seem to offer the same, if not superior, offspring. I have a gut feeling that cheating nature on this level has to have some consequence, even if we can't see it right now. How does that sound, Tom? (By the way, I'm surprised you don't offer Fems considering your stance on the subject.)

M.

Tom Hill · Mar 24, 2012

Hi Morphote,

If there were observed facts in that theory you'd have more of my ear sir, sincerely. If we were to entertain some of those thoughts for arguments sake -the fact remains- gynoecious selection is not a one way street without the option of flipping a U-turn, and so the poddy-mouthing of it seems a bit ridiculous to me.

I am currently building a personal library of S1 seed from some of the elite clones over the past decade and remnant seed from this project will be offered. To my mind, it is more important to keep these germplasm collections separate than to introduce males solely for the sake of settling the gut feelings of others on the subject of gynoecious selections.

Quite frankly, I can't imagine anything holding a knowledgeable breeder back from gynoecious selections, excepting an ignorant customer base. -Tom

thesloppy · Mar 24, 2012

OG.Gotti said:
I have alot more respect for a man like Shanti and his business practices, than someone like Arjan..

I always get lost at this twist in the story. As far as I understand (which admittedly is all third-hand gossip, and could be entirely wrong) Shanti sold Arjan his entire share of Greenhouse seeds, a company they both founded, which sold only their own genetics. Arjan continued to run the business he both founded, and bought out from Shanti, just as he had, while Shanti released all of his genetics under a new company. I certainly got no love for Arjan, the man or the ego, but I never understand why he's the bad guy for buying out Shanti share of Greenhouse, a company he co-founded, while Shanti is the good guy for selling Arjan his share of GHS, and then releasing the same genetics under a different company.

Sure, I get that they're 'his' genetics in personal, emotional terms....but if he didn't want GHS to have the genetics, felt that they were his, and those were the only seeds they sold, why sell his share of the company? He could've just walked away with the plants, but instead sold his share of the company to Arjan, yet somehow maintains everybody's sympathies, and people bemoan him getting ripped off all the time, while he's selling genetics he willfully sold to someone else, at twice the price. I don't get it....the judgments on the business side that is. I do understand sticking with whatever breeders you know/like for any reason you please, and Shanti has certainly proven his knowledge/skill over time, I just don't think he's handled himself any better/worse than anybody else in this shady game, especially Arjan, who might be a monumental ass, but is actually the only person in this sketchy biz who actually HAS paid Shanti for his genetics.

Apologies for the threadjack. Feel free to ignore me and my ramblings.

Morphote · Mar 24, 2012

TomHill said:
Hi Morphote,

If there were observed facts in that theory you'd have more of my ear sir, sincerely. If we were to entertain some of those thoughts for arguments sake -the fact remains- gynoecious selection is not a one way street without the option of flipping a U-turn, and so the poddy-mouthing of it seems a bit ridiculous to me.

I am currently building a personal library of S1 seed from some of the elite clones over the past decade and remnant seed from this project will be offered. To my mind, it is more important to keep these germplasm collections separate than to introduce males solely for the sake of settling the gut feelings of others on the subject of gynoecious selections. -T

Yes, but that's exactly my point. By the time it's observable it might be too late to make that U-turn (although you are saying it'll never be too late?). Like you say, I can't prove it and I can't show you, but it does make sense yes? Am I to understand that you have absolutely no reservations about gynoecious selections? You've never had a doubt or concern in your mind? You've never heard a valid intelligent argument against them? No one has posited one ever? Not to doubt you, but I find that hard to believe.

M.

OG.Gotti · Mar 24, 2012

That's what I don't want to happen.. The bottlenecking of genes or traits..

Tom Hill · Mar 24, 2012

That's correct it is never too late if your hypothesis of male importance ever proves out. No, it doesn't make sense to me. Yes you understand correctly, I have zero reservations about gynoecious selections, and I have not once heard a lucid argument against them, let alone a science-based one - I don't believe you have either but I'm all ears. -Tom

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