Lacto Bacilli: process and discussion

jaykush · Sep 16, 2008

lol fista sea lion piss.....

hey so i just had an idea. since the lactic acid bacteria attack and breaks down ammonia, and ammonia eventually turns into available N given some microbial work and time. could people who use piss as their fert use this and get benefits? does anyone out there use piss as a fert? that is down to try the lacto B? id add a few drops to some piss say before its diluted. it should take the smell away and help break down the ammonia. just an idea.

if i had to piss right now id try it, maybe later on. i still have that mother culture sitting in the fridge( which i checked and still microbes moving around)

edit: i tried it.....that was a smelly experience. maybe i didnt wait long enough( 20 mins) but now i know why i dont use piss as a fert. smells like piss :nono:

MrFista · Sep 16, 2008

Yes it removes the smell from human urine too! But it doesn't happen instantly, more an overnight process. I figure the ammonia must be a food source for lacto b or one of ammonias by-products at least.

I always though urine would be much better for plants if nitrifying bacteria could get at it first. Perhaps you pee in a bio-reactor type system and then remove some of this for watering into plants would provide the free nitrate without the smells and salts.

Salt is my biggest concern with any form of humanure. We need to find bacteria that break down salt and then we'll be cooking.

spiral · Sep 17, 2008

Doesnt lacto b help in denitrification converting the ammonia into nitrogen gas? Thats why I think we get rid of the urine smells.

jaykush · Sep 17, 2008

i found this....

Ammonium is made up of nitrogen and hydrogen, three atoms of hydrogen for each atom of nitrogen. (NH3-). Shortly after the ammonium reaches the soil, because it has a negative charge, it binds to the positively charged soil or organic matter. Through time, it is converted to nitrate by soil bacteria. The warmer the soil, the faster the conversion.

im thinking it just breaks those bonds with some sort of enzyme or whatever the lacto B throws at it basically. then you get N and hydrogen. which eventually gets used by the plant.

Salt is my biggest concern with any form of humanure. We need to find bacteria that break down salt and then we'll be cooking.

yea thats very true. it will have to be diluted a lot possibly, doesn't salt at high concentrations kill just about everything?

MrFista · Sep 17, 2008

Ammonia converts to nitrite - nitrite converts to nitrate. I'm still baffled why lacto B aids in this process - but it does do something I know that for sure.

I just found an abstract where scientists are using blue-green algae to monitor nutrient levels - sound familiar Jay? Hehe. They're a bit slow those lettered boys.

Salt kills pretty much everything yes. But is there an extremophile that likes salt...?

That's what I reckoned happened to Revs soil, extremophiles populated in the heat and ate his nitrogen for breakfast.

I know a solution that is acidic stands a far better chance of breaking down salts, but what do they break down to - salt? Need me edumecated buddies ear for this one I think.

There are dilution levels that are safe, Osiricas work with sea salts will give us this figure. A (safely) diluted humanure input to a balanced soil food web should do nothing but feed the microbes, and water additions keep it in a safe range till it is utilised.

How much salts are processed by plants in organic settings would be a great figure to have, then we'd know the rate of application to keep a balance. Again Osirica's work may help. He's in hydro, just got to see if he changes out etc.

New subject for my thinker... Answers may be very obvious I'm just not thinking of them at 5:30 am...

jaykush · Sep 17, 2008

as far as i know now, lacto b only has part in the Ammonia to nitrite step, then another bacteria does the nitrite to nitrate, BUT lacto b could be doing the whole job who knows. and i have no clue how to find that out either.

I just found an abstract where scientists are using blue-green algae to monitor nutrient levels - sound familiar Jay? Hehe. They're a bit slow those lettered boys.

it does. kids these days.lol

But is there an extremophile that likes salt...?

im sure there is, but can we get to it and or find it? and then put it to use? it would be wise to look in places with high salt concentration im guessing, possibly high heat as well.

There are dilution levels that are safe, Osiricas work with sea salts will give us this figure. A (safely) diluted humanure input to a balanced soil food web should do nothing but feed the microbes, and water additions keep it in a safe range till it is utilised.

How much salts are processed by plants in organic settings would be a great figure to have, then we'd know the rate of application to keep a balance. Again Osirica's work may help. He's in hydro, just got to see if he changes out etc.

yea i know diluted enough you can use salts like ocean water, or sea salt. it is rich in minerals and trace elements. like you said the question is how much can the soil take before flipping out.

this really isnt about lacto b really.

Dignan · Sep 19, 2008

Right on, jay... good to see this thread going.

Dig

spiral · Sep 19, 2008

heres some foliar applcation info.

Lacto b as a foliar spray will totally populate the leaf surface, and use up the food supply thereby starving out any pathogens that might also want to populate the leaf surfaces. Its presence protects the plant, allowing the pores on the leaves (stomata)
to open up larger and stay open longer. To use add 5 tsp/gal of your 1:20 dilution, generally not used alone, but combined with other fermented plant extracts.

Smurf · Sep 19, 2008

I found a patent for a product containing lacto b and thought you may be interested in the solubilized kelp process... it doesn't give too much away tho, just a sniff.

Crop yield adjuvant

United States Patent 4043788

A novel composition of matter, which when sprayed on crops at low rates improves their yield, is attained by combining hydrolysed fish or fish offal, solubilized seaweed and chelated plant micronutrients.

Composition:

Fish hydrolysate 75 parts, Lactobacilli cultured seaweed as a 20% non water content 4.7 parts, Solubilized seaweed powder 4.7 parts, Lignosulfonate chelated plant micronutrients 3.1 parts, Water 12.5 parts, Sum 100.0 parts

SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION

THE SOLUBILIZED SEAWEED

The solubilized seaweed used in this invention is prepared by hydrolysing brown marine algae. These plants include rockweeds, bladder worts, oar weeds and giant marine kelps. Most of the available soluble seaweeds are prepared from rockweeds, mostly Ascophlium nodosum and the Fucus species which grow beside them. The gathered seaweeds are ground and treated with alkaline or acidic solutions at elevated temperature and pressure to break up the polymerized carbohydrates which comprise most of their structure. The cooled solution of kelp is filtered free from residual cellulose, and may be used directly or may be dried to be reconstituted by the user.

Seaweed may also be incubated with Lactobacilli species to obtain a liquid product.

MrFista · Sep 20, 2008

That's great info smurf Lacto b by the sound of it assists breaking down seaweed, putting some in my bucket of kelp 1st light. I wonder if it helps with smells of seaweed too.

Could shred with a mower then alkalinise it (seaweed) with lime, and then acidify it with fulvic and humic acids. Throw some lacto b in at the acidifying stage I hunch.

jaykush · Sep 29, 2008

bump bump

still got loads of life, not as much as when it started but still more than enough imo.

MrFista · Oct 1, 2008

How old is the solution?

Thanks for the bump, I forgot to lacto my seaweed (typically) - just did it.

jaykush · Oct 2, 2008

it was finished on 8-22-08 and put in the fridge.

B.C. · Oct 2, 2008

Very interesting thread Jay!

Very interesting thread Jay!

I was wondering if this stuff would kill tomato blight? From what I understand blight is a form of fungus. If nothin else it may change the ph on the leaf long enough to stop it. ( I'm on a roll ) Then that makes me think about powder mildew and sulpher burners. Sulpher burners work on this princible so why wouldn't this stuff. Whada ya think? BC

spiral · Oct 2, 2008

Hey B.C. I was wondering the same thing, I found an article about Lactobacillus Casei that said it can be used as an effective treatment for powdery mildew and downy mildew doesnt explain how or how much to apply ( regarding plant use L.B. is some damn hard stuff to find info on). my guess is regular foliar applications through out the plants lives will keep harmful funguses from getting a foot hold. Still searchin for more info.

B.C. · Oct 3, 2008

Cool!

Cool!

Thank you Spiral! I've been lucky so far with my maders, but my dad seems ta have this problem every year. He's even moved his garden. Everyone in his neck of the woods has been havin this problem aswell. He's to the point of wantin ta soak the soil down with ortho fugicide. EEK! I thought I'd try an find him somthin alil less harsh. We'll give this a go next year.....I haven't had any problems with pm in my indoor garden since I moved grow places ( basements can really suck sometimes! ), but it would be nice ta have a remedy just incase. I'm gonna make some jus ta play with, it's a win win situation anyway ya look at it! lol Thanks again, and thank you Jay, yuv opened my eyes to -many- new things in the micro world over the past few years. Take care... BC

jaykush · Oct 3, 2008

hey BC. i cant really say for sure. as PM is not a problem down here. way too dry. i would think like spiral said it would help prevent an outbreak. it possibly could get rid of it but i cant try it as no PM here.

proper compost tea is very good at defending against pm. foliar spray once a week i doubt youll see the problem again.

hehe no problem b.c. eyes need to be opened sometimes. or else we would all fall flat on our faces. but really thank nature, everything you could ever need its all around you.

MrFista · Oct 4, 2008

I wonder myself about PM. Milk being used to kill PM. Is it the lacto b in the milk?

jaykush · Oct 4, 2008

i always heard/read it was the lactic acid that did the job. its like the sterilization step in the lacto b culture. the milk eliminates them except lactic acid tollerant bacteria. so maybe it works on the leaf surface.

spiral · Oct 6, 2008

Yeah, it was just lactobacillus casei specifically that was named in the article for knocking out PM. So for a treatment with the lacto b we make I read foliar spray 1 to 2 times a week. Jayz absolutly right about the compost tea though it will do the same thing.
As for using milk, what I read about that was, lacto b is more effective at eating milk so its population totally explodes even with low numbers to begin with, so I could see how this would work by out competing everything else.
There are bacteria products sold commercially for killin PM. But I know we dont like to buy shit.
Do people spray flowering plants with CT?

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Lacto Bacilli: process and discussion

jaykush

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MrFista

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spiral

jaykush

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MrFista

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jaykush

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Dignan

The Soapmaker!

spiral

Smurf

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MrFista

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jaykush

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MrFista

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jaykush

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B.C.

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spiral

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jaykush

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MrFista

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