"Mr extractor" discussion

ConnoisseurConc said:

My name is Drew, owner of Connoisseur Concentrates. I am happy to debate our device here with you all. Facebook is not the place so I will discuss any issues here with you all. Lets see if you guys can have an actual debate and keep it civil.

Ill address a couple topics I have already read.

First off, I'm not an actor. I'm, an inventor. I hate being on camera. Which is why I choose not to be in our film, but I will work into that.

Define actor?

Might you share your training and experience credentials supporting your title as inventor?

No problem, I actually no doubt enjoyed the purdy women more.

The two ladies in our videos are founders of our company, and not hired models or actors. If they didn't come across as pro actors, its because they are not. Attacking women on there looks is a hurtful and petty thing to do. They did a very good job in my opinion considering their skills are geared towards the operation of the company.

I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment; our beef is with you and your practices, not your women doing their jobs.

One of those practices was to put those two lovely women into the line of fire, after taking the proverbial dump in our joint nest.

While I don’t support the response, I submit that you need to belly up to the bar and share the blame, or appear petty yourself from this perspective.

You started the attack, did you expect there would be no repercussions?

Second, Mr.Extractor was designed with the new user in mind. Stripped down to the simplest features, it was designed to market towards the new user who has seen overly complex devices and has no idea how to use them. I can create a super complex device with pumps and tubes and tanks, but the majority of america and the rest of the world has no idea what is going on there.

Easy for you to say, but it would be more believable if you showed us some of your super complex designs with tubes and pumps.

I understand that you may not understand the complexity, but I question your ability to speak for the majority of America (capitalized), or the rest of the world.

Your use of those terms is hyperbole, just like much of your published propaganda.
Cutting to the chase, FOAF, Tamisium, and Lil Terp both precede your passive design, and many of us have used dry ice and alcohol to speed up recovery, with that information long since published on various forums.

The reason those of using pumps didn’t leap on the much simpler passive techniques demonstrated by FOAF in the hoary days of yore, is that you are severely limited in what you can do with them, even using dry ice to speed up recovery.


Extractors on forums have had years of experience tweaking on machines and comparing features. They forget that in most of the world people are just learning what BHO is. We get calls from people everyday expressing these exact statements. That for years they have wanted to make BHO, but were scared of pumps, and it was just too complicated.


Seems like more hyperbole! Closed loop extraction is a recent innovation.

Yup, we get calls from people every day ranging from folks whom could not safely operate a screwdriver, to skilled engineers wanting to build their own from scratch.

We encourage the challenged ones to stay away from hydrocarbon extraction completely, and especially be wary of anyone showing them how to load and extract with un-distilled butane indoors, especially utilizing your burping techniques.


I promise you, we are currently selling these devices all over the world. Spain, Australia, Europe to name a few. This week we have a demo set up with 30 prospective buyers. Most of whom have purchased other machines and are pissed about the level of complexity they have to deal with.

Eschewing hyperbole appears to be a challenge for you. Is pissed the best word to describe their state of mind?

We’ve upgraded a number of folks from Tamisiums to Terpenators, but I wouldn’t describe them as pissed. More disappointed in how limited they were as to product selection, and how slow they were.

I have no question that you are selling around the world, only question to whom and why you feel you have to trash the competition for your unit to stand out.

Don’t you believe it will stand on its own merits?

This unit, being small, was never meant to replace machines in the extraction community. We know you guys are loyal to your gear, and have invested a lot into it. Its humorous that you think that was our attempt, for you to sell your 5 lb Bhogart and buy an 8 ounce Mr. Extractor. Of course you think its a joke. I do too. Thats ridiculous. The thing is that you haven't seen our 2, 5 and 10 pound machines yet.

No we haven’t and I await with bated breath to see how much they too copy the Tamisium, which are just as limited in the products that they can produce.

One of the reasons we get backing from the companies we do is that have researched all the available extraction devices out there, from the point of view of the mechanical engineer and the manufacturer, as well as certification. They have also reviewed our patent filing, as well as seen the blueprints on our larger and more complex models. You guys have only seen our small machine. They have seen all we are working on. Companies know that simplicity is valuable, not complexity.

KISS is not a new principle that ya’ll invented. Achieving the goal isn’t either, which is why there are more complex systems out there.

Might you show us some cotton candy shatter in your pot?

Can you pop a Lexan lid on your recovery pot, and finish purging the material using it as a vacuum chamber?

Extractors are a secretive group. They like to keep recipes and techniques to themselves, and rightly so, thats how they make money. Sometimes when you only deal with your own, you forget that there is a huge world that is about to emerge through legalization.

Now you are on a sharing forum, telling us that we are a secretive group, and have forgotten there is a huge world out there emerging through legalization.

If legalization seems like a profound observation to you, I suggest that you lead a sheltered life, because some of us are one of the forces behind legalization. What do you imagine we thought was going to happen?

There has been topics brought up about extractions not permitted for rec users in certain states. That may be what the law is proposing as of today, but that may not be how the law is written next year.


You have to see that the future is legalization, and creating a company around todays laws when everyone can see they are shifting toward a different stance is stupid. People have been making extraction equipment for years now and the laws have been nothing but worse in the past.

The only thing that has been in use for years, is open tube and thermos extraction, so you again are using hyperbole, unless you are attempting to paint us all with the same brush.

The issue building against HC extraction is those folks doing open extraction indoors and blowing things up. Sort of like you can do with yours if something goes wrong.

As a company we realized a few things. While you guys look at our machine and call it a pipe bomb, we have a few issues with the devices that are out now as well.

That is called misdirection. Let’s not change the subject and stick with the pipe bomb issue.

They are calling it that because you aren’t vacuuming out the oxygen containing atmosphere before loading in butane and are openly burping indoors.

Nicely demonstrated by one of your lovely women, while wearing a synthetic fabric dress, long known in these circles to be dangerous because of static electricity.

How are you going to feel if you take the lovely looks away from one of your purdy women.

We realized that if you can build an extraction device, and couple it with a non flame rated HVAC pump and sell it to an unknowing customer, youve got some problems.


Indeed and anyone being less that open with their customer should be hanged by the testicles and beaten with a dead rabbit, but painting the industry with the same brush is hyperbole and untrue.

How about those of us building competitive systems that are using pumps and equipment that are certified for the purpose.

When we cowrote the paper with Xtractix Corporation, it was met with a lot of criticism to say the least. That showed us that even though the logic that you shouldnt do such thing was apparent, that the manufacturer of the HVAC device even went so far as to directly explain in writing how dangerous it was to couple these devices together, no one cared. Well it looked that way at least.

No, you painted it that way because it served your purposes, which is one of the central reasons that you are now the pariah amongst knowledgeable extraction professionals.

Seemingly you are attempting to portray yourself as the white knight in shining armor amongst all the rest of the extractor manufacturers, as well as the pump manufacturers.

If the extraction community at large will turn a blind eye to that situation, thats a weak move. We wont support it. We have created a device that doesnt need them, and works at similar speeds. Something people should have been working on instead of trying to make reasons why something so clearly unsafe was safe.

Perhaps it is because your motives have prevented you from noticing all of the research and efforts by the extraction community. When a pickpocket meets a saint, they see only their pockets.

The paper had positive effects. Precision tech is coming out with a pump that meets most of our standards. Stainless interior tubing, PTFE seals, low psi shutoff, all the things we called for in our paper. And they are mostly sold out before production. Why? Because you guys know that's what should be used, and not the dangerous crap that's been sold for years. But instead of saying that, we're just going to pretend that all those previous sales of appions didn't happen.

The evidence suggests that it is you that is pretending and preying on the gullible and uninformed. New pump development is rapidly maturing because we drove the research and market, not you.

We didn’t have the passive systems originally either, but someone had to invent it for you to plagiarize the design.

If extractors are going to promote dangerous tech and sit and try to defend it we don't want to work with people like that. That's why we didn't market to you. You defended it then, and youll defend it now. And you'll defend it when the rest of the world moves on. We would rather market to everyone else in the world that would like to buy an extractor that is not complicated, and doesn't need a pump.

Like the uninformed and gullible for instance.

I will tell you this: we are getting daily meetings, calls and demos with people and companies that are tired of their current extractors. Around the world. Wholesale accounts. Invites to open dispensaries. I am perfectly happy with the way things are going.

We have larger units coming out. Big ones, that are fast. This little unit was meant to be fun. And it will be. Your making a mistake by thinking this is all we have to offer, or the extent of our knowledge.



Remember, all press is good press. The more you talk about us the more our name gets out. Keep up the good work. We expected this. We set out to offer a different solution to extracting and fully expected to get attacked by every manufacturer we compete with and all their customers, and that's a lot. We talked to all our manufactures and suppliers about it before release. Right along schedule.

I'm here to debate the scientific aspects of the device. It is not perfect, and I don't know everything. You will be able to point out flaws, like on any other system. You'll have questions I cant answer, and some of you will be far more technically smarter than I. But I will answer questions to the best of my ability.If you post a civil question, I will answer it. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. But I'm game.

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Gray Wolf said:

You are right about guerilla publicity getting you sales amongst the uninformed, but it can back fire on you.

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ConnoisseurConc said:

1. No it is not safe to operate indoors. We had requests for a demo video and due to the rain it is not feasible, or wise from a marketing standpoint to do a video outdoors.

2. That was not me, for one. It was a client who bought a machine, and made his own videos. Who has control of that? The answer is no.

Who had control of whether the girls performed an unsafe act for the customer, that could have resulted in significant life changing harm?

I can see your focus on the customer and marketing, but you seem to have lost sight of employee safety.

Ignoring my own simple minded babble, what do you think the fire marshall would have said, had you passed it by him first?

Devils advocate: back in the day a water bath or hot plate was an acceptable way of making BHO smokable. This is do-able in the machine, once the bottom is disconnected from the extraction top, its just a chamber basically. Some people do not have vac ovens. They need a way to at least try to make things safe to consume. By today's standards a vac oven is necessary. By yesterdays standards a hot water bath could do.

Can we agree to at least start with todays standards, rather than those from the hoary days of yore (my hyperbole), can we agree that you are not producing a raw product that will pass current inspection standards for residual solvents in dispensaries in regulated states.

At least the powered systems can heat and vacuum the extraction to finish it off to current standards, while producing tasty aromatic products.

Are you telling your customers that your's doe meet current standards?
3: Joey Conn made the video in question. My name is Drew. Different people. Joey is my friend, and a good client with a good heart. For clarification, you would have to ask him. I can give you an idea of what I believe he was talking about:


When you expel the oxygen from the system it fills with butane as a gas. When you chill that butane it shrinks, causing a vacuum. Its strong enough to where you have to pry open the device, or let air back in at the end. When you couple this effect with heating the bottom evap chamber(and your oil) you perform a minor heat vacuum to your extracts. We can produce shatter directly in the device this way. If you did this for three days, it would be arguably smokeable.

Our recover times are listed at 20 -30 minutes, not three days. At the recommended times the extract would not be fit for consumption.

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ConnoisseurConc said:

Jd a couple of those quotes are statements, a couple I have answered above and I ll address the vacuum aspect and vac ports questions.

Vacuuming.
We purge the oxygen from the system using butane, a gas heavier than oxygen, to slowly flood the device, expelling oxygen through the open top clamp are. I repeat, we expel oxygen, not butane. If you look at it like water, the heaver gas will stay on the bottom and the oxygen will rise like a boat on water.

Or to put it another way, you are mixing the two in the tanks, before they are burped out, and don't see that as an issue.

I read how many engineers and learned technocrats you ran our design by, but wonder if you have read NFPA standards for liquified petroleum gases or run it by the fire marshal?

Oxygen will not condense with cold temps, at least in the way we are doing it. If there is oxygen in the system it causes a vapor lock and stops recovery as it fills the upper condensing chamber and the butane cant get in to condense. That is the purpose of purging the system.

We use a simple vacuum pump, which can be had for under $150, to eliminate all atmosphere, ergo the oxygen.

Trying to weasel your way around an explosive mixture of butane and oxygen, to save the cost of a $150 vacuum pump, on a $6500 system costing less than $1000 to build, appears criminal from here.

I wonder how a DA's might look at it, if someone is injured?

You have been taught that oxygen in the system is an explosion hazard. For you, it is. You are running it through an electrical device. We have no interior ignition source. Static electricity cannot affect the device because it is grounded to itself. Think of you trying to shock yourself when rubbing your feet on the carpet. You cant have a shock between your two fingers because you are grounded to yourself. You can however produce a spark when you touch something else because now you are passing the charge to another item. When you are charged you are not producing internal sparks the whole time. That situation would be on the exterior, not the interior of the device and the oxygen level does not come into play at that time. Static charges are something all users of flammable materials need to be aware of at all times, with any device. It does not however make a different to the interior oxygen level.

I suggest your read NFPA 77 to better under static discharges between two grounded objects, and consider the static charge that can build up on the synthetic fibers your pretty ladies are wearing and the device.

Vac ports.
For simplicity we did not include them on this model. We made this for the beginner and having to buy a vac pump was not something we wanted to suggest. The machine functions fine without one. They are included on the next model up, as well as ports for an active system, as well as purge valves, condensing coils and a number of other upgrades.

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ConnoisseurConc said:

Lots to cover. Many responses. Let me start by saying that you and I have known each other for a long time. You would remember me as CriticalKronic. Its been a while since we conferred. I would love to discuss these issues. I would hope that even that we disagree about each others current practices, that we could have a good discussion in the name of getting out some truths. Are you game?

If so lets pick one topic at a time and discuss it out.

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ConnoisseurConc said:

This unit has been designed for simplicity.

Actually redesigned from a Tamisium system that was simpler yet and cheaper.

We are aware of all the cool upgrades and have incorporated them on the next size up unit.

Up to this point your marketing plaudit has been to say your device trumped and replaced all the competitive devices with the other features and now you are incorporating all of them, We must have struck some sensitive nerves pointing out your devices flaws, for you to copy everything the rest of us have contributed too!

We made the best attempt at simplicity, and still addressing the above concerns. Ill tell you what we did to do our best to address them.

The unit effectively shuts down with oxygen in it. Vapor lock.

Before you were ever on the scenes, we were calling that non condensable gases. You didn’t invent it to make your unit fool proof, you are stuck with it and any way you slice it, you have an explosive mixture.

In active systems the HVAC pump would just compress it, making a high pressure situation.

Absolutely right, where we would have to burp it off, but we only do that if something goes wrong, goes wrong, while you plan to make an explosive mixture on purpose.

Leave us not forget, we first remove the atmosphere before introducing the butane.

We dont have the mechanical pressurizing situation. The way we test how much air is in the system is as such: after the majority of reclaiming, or even just some, you can shut off the reclaim valve to the top tank. The dry ice will chill the butane and drop the butanes pressure to zero. Any additional pressure on top on that is compressed oxygen.

Is that right? You demonstrated using Powers butane, also containing propane.

The unit comes with a tool that allows you to depress the inlet valve and release any trapped oxygen. its very little. It smells like air, not butane.

The butane wont pressurize out because it is a cold liquid at that point, with no pressure of its own. We've found that when simply purged you really dont get any oxygen in the system. Maybe a little.

How much is maybe a little with regard to the 1.8% explosive limits and how far shall we stretch the limits to allow you to compete with safer systems evacuating the chambers first?


We have tested the device at room temp because this device was meant to be ran at room temp. When chilled to those temp you describe the butane has no psi. You are still used to factoring in the pressurizing of the pumps. We don't have that factor any longer. So at -30 our device runs at 0 psi. I'm sure the glass is rated for those pressures lol. In our larger units, designed to operate at below zero temps, the column is stainless. They are designed to prechill your butane and be able to extract with those temps. This one can kinda do it.

So you acknowledge that your unit is not suitable for the full range of applications that even the Tamisium is/

No high pressure clamps...We don't experience high pressures.

Unless something goes wrong, goes wrong, goes wrong…………………

Another feature of not having pumps. Normal operation pressures, 20-50 psi. Thats room temp.

Sure limits your gas mixtures at those pressures, doesn’t it?

Using warm tap water works the machine wonderfully, and keeps the pressures low. We cannot be responsible if someone misuses the product by putting in on a hot plate or some other misuse. Under correct operating procedures the regular clamps are more than enough to meet spec.

Does your owner destruction manual give proper torque specifications and safe storage procedures? What might the pressures rise to if the electricity goes off and things warm up?

The rest of us are using the high pressure clamps for safety margin, not because our pressures are any higher than yours. We switched after finding the hinged clamps unreliable in actual field use.

The unit is able to remove all impurities by running it empty, pre distilling, as you know. It takes about 15 minutes in this system because you can use hot water with it and not worry about the color of the extract.

Is that right? And what temperature is your hot water compared to the boiling point of Pentane?
The sub zero butane method offered in this system is a stainless column similar to subzeros.

Yup, we can all see the resemblance.

We are going to get asked about their patent so we will go ahead and address it now. As patents go, you cant patent something thats been out in the public for over a year. Theirs has. They cant patent it. Sorry.

Yup, so how is it that you have anything to patent?

We are going to offer it, and something better anyway, for now we use it to heat the column for a faster recovery, and plan to offer a true post extraction dewaxing option that replaces the bottom of the device as well. Its your choice if you use it as a cold column, I personally dont really like it but thats just me.. Again, the larger extractor grade device will have all your mods and more.



The unit holds approx 2000 ml of butane. You see us using cheap butane because that is what the majority of the world has access to. All the people saying we should be using nbutane, and theres no fitting for nbutane, should already know ecotech has an nbutane adapter for this application. Theres no need for us to waste time manufacturing one. I figured this was common knowledge, but I guess not. Ill include a link.

So this device is only designed to use lighter butane and requires an after-market adapter from Ecogreen to use more conventional resources??

From this perspective, that seems rather ghetto, when the rest of us are designed to use conventional sources, but adaptable to ghetto in a pinch.

It does highlight and clarify your state of mind when you “invented” it, but begs the question of how it seemed so much better than the more evolved and sophisticated systems surrounding you?

http://ecogreenindustries.net/product/filling-adapter-kit/

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ConnoisseurConc said:

I was looking for a debate, but it seems that wont be available. Im assuming its because grey wolf does not wish to answer to his own practices. When a person has a question, please let me know, other than that I will continue to watch Greywolf talk to himself.

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ConnoisseurConc said:

There are some serious issues that need to be discussed here.

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ConnoisseurConc said:

There's a mix of 30 questions, quotes and comments. My time is valuable as well. I cant have 20 different discussions. I said I will answer questions and I will. We can start with one and get a solid answer to it.

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ConnoisseurConc said:

Lets address the static issue. I will play devils advocate here for a moment. Lets say that Kendals dress was the most statically charge device in existence. She would be positively charged. The moment she reached out and touched the handle of the device to purge the oxygen, she would discharge onto the exterior of the device. The problem with your theory is that she would discharge as she touched the handle, a metal handle completely grounded to the device. Once she touches it she would be discharged. All this occurs in a millisecond,before the valve has a chance to be opened exposing the discharge to any gasses. Even if she opened it as fast as humanly possible, there is no possibility of the gasses beating the spark.

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ConnoisseurConc said:

Grey Wolf I respect you and your work. In these years we have found ourselves on different sides of the same coin. This isn't going to be fun or pretty, but that's how it is. I want to answer every single question you have.

Your going to have to answer mine, at least I would ask that you would.

I’ll answer your questions.

The problem with the format that you have provided is while I am answering one question, some one is responding to the last one multiplied by 50 and it becomes a mess.

I will stick this out until we are somewhat satisfied, this would for sure become the never ending debate and we are both busy men.

The debate will not end until the questions I’ve broached are answered.

Im going to start with the answer to a few of your questions all rolled into one.

I dislike public appearances. Ive been like this for a long time and it is mainly for the fact of being in the industry that we are in. In many companies the inventors stay in the lab, and the marketers and salesmen do their job. Same here. I have no desire to be in the lime light. Im not selling myself, but my product. I left that to the girls, because they enjoy it.

I realized that was not was was desired by the community. They want to see a male, and a person to represent the product.

Most of the folks on this forum are brothers, who enjoy being titillated by purdy women, but this being a technical forum, the purdy women need to be technically correct.

You set them up for the fall by stirring folks up with your rhetoric, and then employing a marketing strategy heavily drawing from their personal charm and pulchritude.

By all means please continue to use them, but give them better support in the way of a product and process procedures.

I will do this. This is my way of beginning this process. I will come here and answer any questions, even dumb ones about the color of the belt on the ladies as long as its presented in a civil way. Our next videos will have me in it. I wanted to make it about the product, and not me.

As to the ladies in the video. You have brought up some danger issues, which stem off into many directions. I feel that in all honesty you are not one to point the finger here, but thats just how it is.

Ummm, wow, OK, undoubtedly you are absolutely right, but may we address Graywolf recriminations as a separate stand-alone issue, so as not let them misdirect our central purpose here on a thread titled Mr Extractor.

Lets address the static issue. I will play devils advocate here for a moment. Lets say that Kendals dress was the most statically charge device in existence. She would be positively charged. The moment she reached out and touched the handle of the device to purge the oxygen, she would discharge onto the exterior of the device.

The problem with your theory is that she would discharge as she touched the handle, a metal handle completely grounded to the device.

Once she touches it she would be discharged. All this occurs in a millisecond,before the valve has a chance to be opened exposing the discharge to any gasses. Even if she opened it as fast as humanly possible, there is no possibility of the gasses beating the spark.

Is that right? Have you ever pulled a synthetic garment off over your head in the dark and noticed the static discharges just from one area of the garment to the other?

Just air blowing by a synthetic garment transfers static charge to it and everything is not bonded and grounded to the same potential.

It doesn’t have to spark to ground, just to something of lower potential, including different areas of the same garment.

If you had read the NFPA 77 that I suggested above, I don’t believe we would be having this conversation. Might you please do so that we might discuss this issue from a common ground?

Point two: You don't need to evacuate all the oxygen in the system for it to function.

No, but you do for it to function safely. Butane is explosive in the range from 1.86% to 8.41%. Do I understand that you gambling that you are never in that range?

When we purge the oxygen out, we do just that. The oxygen is not flammable in a relative sense compared to butane.

Oxygen is not flammable, at all, it is the oxidizer itself, which you have to keep away from easily oxidized materials for safety reasons.

We use butane's pressure to expel the oxygen up and out. What comes out is air, not butane. No one is suggesting you free flow butane into the atmosphere.

And no one that I’ve seen thus far explain exactly how they are going to precisely off the butane at exactly the butane line, with absolutely mo mixing and nothing ever passing through the 1.86% to 8.41% range.

As far as being a pipe bomb, two thing would need to occur. It would need to be sealed, and there would need to be a spark introduced into it.

It doesn’t need to be sealed to be blown apart, only restrict the rapid expansion off the ignited gas and super heated air enough to be blown apart. The houses being blown up had windows and doors.

Devils advocate: I had a buddy who was a gas guy who worked with gas lines. He worked with it live and I always asked if it was safe. He explained that the problem is the accumulation of gasses in an area, not the pipe igniting. He then proceeded to light the gas line on fire which I thought was crazy. And it just shot a low flame out of it. Just like a torch, or lighter, co2 burner or fireplace.

In order for this to become a bomb a few things would have to happen. There would have to be the correct oxygen to fuel ratio. Not just oxygen in the system. A perfect ratio.

Not much perfection needed in a range of 8%.


There would also have to be an internal ignition source.

One: there will never be an internal ignition source. We do not run our solvent through electrical devices such as vac pumps and HVAC units. Fire rated or not, its plugged in.

It doesn’t have to be for static electrical potential differences to develop between it or adjacent objects. The spark doesn’t even have to jump to the extractor to ignite the fumes, it can be from one area of fabric to another.

Two: Static. I've explained this before but I will do so here again. When you are positively charged you cannot produce a shock between your two fingers because you are grounded to yourself. You are also not producing internal sparks the whole time. If the exterior of the device, when sealed, was exposed to a shock it could not produce an internal shock due to also being grounded to itself, just like your body. The spark would occur on the exterior, and have no relation to the oxygen levels inside the unit. There in no way for this device to ignite any more than a can or tank of butane.

NFPA 77…………


There is a very simple fix for those that still want to vac the unit. We simply offer a stainless column with a 1/4 threaded npt port on the side of it. All the parts of the device are interchangeable. We currently have 4 column options. Extremely low cost, tube and ferrules, and you could vac the device all you like. You would also be able to put whatever vac fittings you have and not be held hostage by out $100 gas fitting we would use.

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