-
Happy Birthday ICMag! Been 20 years since Gypsy Nirvana created the forum! We are celebrating with a 4/20 Giveaway and by launching a new Patreon tier called "420club". You can read more here.
-
Important notice: ICMag's T.O.U. has been updated. Please review it here. For your convenience, it is also available in the main forum menu, under 'Quick Links"!
Inducing quick bud set, and decreasing internodal distance with silicic acid?
- Thread starter smurfin'herb
- Start date
Few points:
1) Firstly, you sound a bit like a Dark Master shill - watch out they'll be making a public statement soon to the effect yes we know we have been busted as the biggest PGR peddlars of all time but our silicate product which acts like a chem PGR has been tested by the CDFA and come up cleanJust joking mate but seriously you've been lead up the garden path and are now leading others up it.
2) Plants as far as I'm aware (and I'm pretty sure as far as science is aware to date) only uptake silicate as silicic acid so any Si product whether that be potassium silcate, silicic acid etc should then theoretically induce the same morphological response if used at the right levels (BTW - I wrote about silica many years ago before it was commonly available through hydroponic stores and after about 15 years of using it with numerous strains have never seen it reduce stretch - although have seen it totally screw with budset when used at too high levels as would be expected with any nutrient)
3) Aptus shows a CDFA test that shows 8 chemical PGRs - there are many many many more that the CDFA aren't testing for. I was the guy that advised the CDFA what to test for and broke the story about chem PGR products (just one of which was Dark Masters Superdud AKA Phosphoload AKA potent human carcinogen Alar and PBZ thinnly disguised as humatic isolates and other science defying wank) that are available through the hydroponics retail sector. I have recently been in contact with the CDFA and a med testing laboratory to ask a few questions and to give the CDFA a few more actives to test for. Actives that are definitely present in a few additives that have managed to slip through the CDFA testing procedures. So when Aptus says hey look at us, we are clean... that could mean yes they are or no they aren't but the CDFA hasn't tested for a large number of the right actives (e.g. triazoles which act as BR biosynthesis inhibitors). The thing is that if a product acts like a chem PGR such as PBZ than the chances are it contains a chem PGR (whether that PGR be harmful to human health or not is another thing)
3) While silicic acid won't reduce stretch there are several things that will - for example, jasmonic acid or theobroxide, a natural product, that strongly stimulates the biosynthesis of jasmonic acid (JA)
Basically mate, if you are using a Si product and it is dramatically reducing stretch and acting like a chem PGR than someone is hiding something. This said, I must look into whether hitting a plant with high levels of boron could perhaps retard growth through inhibiting GA etc. I doubt it but then I've been wrong before and without actually looking at research you never really know.
Not totally sure what you're talking about man. no clue what dark master shill is....?
I definitely used the Dutch masters to limit the stretch though. But like I said in my first post, I think the only real reason it limited the stretch for me is because the overdose of silica stunted ALL plant growth (not sure that's a good thing....lol).
Too much silica will definitely stunt a plants growth though. Try it if you don't believe me. It will slow growth to a crawl (again not necessarily a good thing).
And I'm not an Aptus guy. I think it's way over-priced. And their fasiltor really didn't work all that well to limit the stretch at double dose for me. It was only at an even higher dose that it limited stretch and again that was because it just stunted all the plant growth. I didn't notice any difference for the better when I ran that "believer pack" aptus offers for free side by side with the Dutch masters silica.
And I was just pointing out that if you are a big believer in that Aptus fasiltor to try the Dutch masters silica side by side because it is also silicic acid and way way way cheaper.
But I dont even use the Dutch masters that much anymore. I just mix some food grade Diotemeceous Earth in or on top of my soil.
I agree about PGR's being in some products that don't list them. I've been suspicious of some of Advanced Nutrients stuff for a while now.
And again, I am Not an Aptus guy. I have only tried their free believer pack, which is startboost & fasiltor, and I was not at all impressed.
But some people are totally sold on "needing" silicic acid, so I just wanted to point them to a much cheaper version of it. You can get a liter of DM silicic acid for like $20 where as the aptus stuff is like almost $500 for 1 liter! No chance in the world I'd spend that much on silica.
At $500 a litre even I'd promote Dark Master (i.e. Dutch Master) ---- what a F'ing rip. Maybe gold is their magic bullet
And yeah stressing the hell out of a plant by overdosing it on Si or any other nutrient/element is never a good thing but it would likely stunt growth and reduce yields in the process.Nice post .... Sort of scary how much mythology gets spread through grow forums.
Yeah the only "dark masters" product I have ever used is their DM gold Silica and the bottle was given to me for free so I could run side by side with the free aptus believer pack lol.
Normally I just use food grade diatomaceous earth, more as a top dress layer to prevent/kill things like fungus gnats etc. It just shreds any soft bodied insect. Plus DE is super cheap if you don't buy it from a hydro shop. It works well for lots of pests. I had ants coming into my house and just sprinkled a little DE on the ground near where they were coming in and I haven't seen any ants since.
Normally I just use food grade diatomaceous earth, more as a top dress layer to prevent/kill things like fungus gnats etc. It just shreds any soft bodied insect. Plus DE is super cheap if you don't buy it from a hydro shop. It works well for lots of pests. I had ants coming into my house and just sprinkled a little DE on the ground near where they were coming in and I haven't seen any ants since.
Ted, while I am a strong critic of the propaganda the organic movement has used to promote their multi-billion dollar industry (some of their BS makes even the more unethical hydro industry entities look honest/ethical) I am a very strong supporter of the organic philosophy on the basis it aims to achieve synthetic pesticide and fungicide free growing. Just for the record.... And sure mate a freebie is a freebie. Where purchasing though try to support ethical operators to help push unethical bastards out of the game
BTW - re Advanced Nutrients using chem PGRs. In the past I have been a strong critic of the bullshit that they have fed growers. However, one thing I would say to their credit is that they do not use chem PGRs and have actually been vocal critics against this practice by others. They have a lot of other problems re their marketing but at least they've never actually set out to poison med consumers with profits in mind. The same cannot be said about a few other companies (e.g. Dark Master)
I remember emailing dutch master asking about their silica product. They replied saying that it is in fact potassium silicate. It even says it on the bottle, along with a portion of monosilicic acid.. Im not too sure that monosilicic acid is the type of silicic acid we are looking for when comparing it to a product such as the one Aptus offers. From what ive read, its just a marketing deal, or a more attractive way of expressing part of the silica content.
Also, from what i have read, there are two forms of silicic acid. Orthosilicic and Disilicic. Not too sure if we want just one or both, but im pretty sure orthosilicic is what our plants use. Maybe they can use both, i do not know, im no biochemist. I do try to research as much as i can however. Maybe someone can chime in and correct me if im incorrect. I would hate to spread disinformation.
Also, from what i have read, there are two forms of silicic acid. Orthosilicic and Disilicic. Not too sure if we want just one or both, but im pretty sure orthosilicic is what our plants use. Maybe they can use both, i do not know, im no biochemist. I do try to research as much as i can however. Maybe someone can chime in and correct me if im incorrect. I would hate to spread disinformation.
Sounds to me like you know your stuff and aren't spreading misinformation and yes most manufacturers tend to use potassium silcate. As far as I'm aware mono silicic acid is what plants uptake but then I could be wrong (actually it's really of no consequence because they only uptake one form as far as science knows now - that could change BTW) therefore all silicate products should theoretically elicit the same response in plants. Point really being silicate products where silicate is the only active don't act in the same way as chem PGRs whether they be GA or BR biosynthesis inhibitors. Perhaps someone from Aptus would like to chime in and explain otherwise so I can throw a heap of research at them and hopefully they can throw something new my way that proves me wrong (always open to new info)
Referring to the document I linked to earlier--
From Page 4:
"Plants can only absorb Si in the form of soluble monosilicic acid, a non-charged molecule.
Monosilicic acid, or plant available silicon (PAS), is a product of Si-rich mineral dissolution
(Lindsay, 1979). Different Si sources have different dissolution rates; the solubility of quartz is
low compared to the easily soluble amorphous silica, diatomaceous earth (Savant et al, 1999)."
From Page 24:
"In the soil solution, or liquid phase, Si is present as monosilicic acid (Si(OH)4, referred to as PAS)
and polysilicic acid (the polymer of PAS) as well as complexes with organic and inorganic
compounds such as Al oxides and hydroxides (Berthlesen et al, 2003). While it is the PAS that is
taken up by the plants and has a direct influence on crop growth, the polysilicic acid and
inorganic and organic complexes are important sources/sinks that replenish the PAS following
crop use."
From Page 27:
"Diatomaceous earth is a natural source of Si and has a large surface area due to its structure and
is readily soluble due to its amorphous nature. Solubility is an important parameter to consider
when selecting the appropriate Si fertiliser as solubility determines the concentration of PAS. PAS
is the only form of Si that the plant can use in realising the benefits described above."
Moral of the story: The form of silica which plants can immediately absorb is "monosilicic acid" AND Amorphous Silica (diatomaceous earth)....aka "Plant Available Silica" (PAS). The other forms of silica are most likely a "polymer" and must be "converted" so it can later replenish PAS...as described in Page 24. Potassium Silicate is not PAS...but those products that contain monosilicic acid...only the part that is monosilicic acid is "PAS". A few products besides Aptus, Dutch Master, etc are derived from Potassium Silicate AND monosilicic acid...the most affordable one I found is Growmore's Silo Tec ($30 for 2.5 gallons).
For monosilicic acid--I use Silo Tec, for amorphous silica--I use food grade diatomaceous earth (aka Fossil Shell Flour); best of "both worlds" since Si (as a plant nutrient) sourced from potassium silicate/monosilicic acid IS NOT approved for organic growing...whereas Si sourced from Fossil Shell Flour IS approved for organic growing.
I wonder why dutchmaster only mentioned potash silicate and said nothing about the immediately bioavailible monosilicic acid? You would think thats something they would want to put out there....
This makes me wonder if they are listing the % of monosilicic acid in combination with potash silicate, saying that "this is how much of our product will become availiable to plants after it is converted into the bioavailiable form." Can they get away with some stuff like that? I hope im wrong.
Potash silicate takes a long time to break down and release its plant availiable silica depending on several factors, a big one being microbes. From what ive read, only 25-30% of it will contain bioavailiable Si acid.
This makes me wonder if they are listing the % of monosilicic acid in combination with potash silicate, saying that "this is how much of our product will become availiable to plants after it is converted into the bioavailiable form." Can they get away with some stuff like that? I hope im wrong.
Potash silicate takes a long time to break down and release its plant availiable silica depending on several factors, a big one being microbes. From what ive read, only 25-30% of it will contain bioavailiable Si acid.
I may be misunderstanding what you intended, so please correct me if I am wrong.
Amorphous silica(SiO2) is not PAS(monosilicic acid, H4SiO4).
Though you can get PAS from amorphous silica. Much in the same way that you get PAS from soluble silicates(potassium silicate). just dissolve it in water.
And in fact, dry potassium silicate such as AgSil 16h is amorphous in the same way as diatomaceous earth.
regarding the labeling of products as derived from silicic acid. Understand that potassium silicate is the common name for the potassium salt of silicic acid. The msds of potassium silicate solutions will list it as:
silicic acid, potassium salt
So yes, companies do use marketing language to make their product stand apart.
Amorphous silica(SiO2) is not PAS(monosilicic acid, H4SiO4).
Though you can get PAS from amorphous silica. Much in the same way that you get PAS from soluble silicates(potassium silicate). just dissolve it in water.
And in fact, dry potassium silicate such as AgSil 16h is amorphous in the same way as diatomaceous earth.
regarding the labeling of products as derived from silicic acid. Understand that potassium silicate is the common name for the potassium salt of silicic acid. The msds of potassium silicate solutions will list it as:
silicic acid, potassium salt
So yes, companies do use marketing language to make their product stand apart.
If you want to add DE to your grow media use NAPA floor dry as a top dressing. It is 100% DE. I use it to top dress coco with.
On the top it will kill insects. It does this by slicing their shells. Very good for fungus nats in cloth bags. Not as good in plastic pots that have holes in the bottom for the nats to get at.
As mentioned it gives your plant silica.
Lastly it let's you know when your plants need water just by looking at it. When it is wet it is tan and when it is dry it is white.
As for speeding flower you could give your plants a long night cycle when you first put hem into flower. There is a hormo that I forget the name of at is produced during the light cycle. This hormone it broken down in the night cycle. It is this hormone that keeps your plant from flowering. By giving a extended night cycle you reduce it and bring the flowering on faster. No chemicals needed.
I try to give a full 24 hours of night cycle before the first day of flower. This seems to speed up bud set for me.
On the top it will kill insects. It does this by slicing their shells. Very good for fungus nats in cloth bags. Not as good in plastic pots that have holes in the bottom for the nats to get at.
As mentioned it gives your plant silica.
Lastly it let's you know when your plants need water just by looking at it. When it is wet it is tan and when it is dry it is white.
As for speeding flower you could give your plants a long night cycle when you first put hem into flower. There is a hormo that I forget the name of at is produced during the light cycle. This hormone it broken down in the night cycle. It is this hormone that keeps your plant from flowering. By giving a extended night cycle you reduce it and bring the flowering on faster. No chemicals needed.
I try to give a full 24 hours of night cycle before the first day of flower. This seems to speed up bud set for me.
We almost agree..but not quite.
The term "silicic acid" is the general name for a family of chemical compounds containing the element silicon attached to oxide and hydroxyl groups. Both "Monosilicic acid" (non-charged molecule that contains a single Si atom) AND "Polysilicic Acid" (charged molecule or chain of molecules that contain two or more Si atoms) belong to the same "silicic acid family"...but they are not the same nor interchangeable. You can have one without having the other.
NOW...there are at least three types of Si that are mobile in soil: monosilicic acid, polysilicic acid, organo-silicon compounds and complex compounds with organic and inorganic substances (amorphous silica...such as diatomaceous earth and AgSil). YES these three types of Si play a primary role in the biochemical cycle of Si...but not all three are "plant available"--just TWO OF THEM are available "immediately" (using that word rather loosely here).
The term "amorphous" in most Si discussions generally means the pure form of SiO2--which includes: colloidal silica, precipitated silica, silica gel, pyrogenic silica, silica fume, quartz glass, fused silica and diatoms in the form of diatomaceous earth. Food grade diatomaceous earth is about 89% "amorphous silica", maybe 0.5% potassium oxide and contains 28+ trace elements...whereas your AgSil 16H (derived from quartz glass and potassium salt) is processed and contains around 53% SiO2, 32% potassium oxide and zero trace elements, so the the two products are not "amorphous silica in the same way"...IMHO, they are not even "close" (89% vs 53%...0.5% vs 32%...28 vs 0...diatoms vs "salt", etc). Did you know...by definition Perlite is "amorphous silica" but provides ZERO Si? I agree, "amorphous silica" does not mean it will become "plant available", especially since not all source of Si behave the "same".
What is "plant available silica"? It seems when I read a new study and that definition seems to change--but it is generally accepted that: "Si is taken up through roots in the form of mono-silicic acid (Takahashi & Hino 1978), transported up through the plant in the xylem and then deposited as amorphous silica throughout the plant in cell walls, cell lumen, in intracellular spaces and in trichomes (Blackman & Parry 1968; Perry et al. 1984; Perry & Fraser 1991; Epstein 1999)."
Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2435.2011.01880.x/pdf
My takeaway from all the research I have read is: soluble amorphous silica will usually complete the "siliconization process" (conversion to monosilicic acid...then the precipitation to amorphous silica) much sooner than other forms of Si. Hundreds of studies have shown Food Grade DE (Fossil Shell Flour) is both a very effective and cost-effective amendment to increase Si in both soil and plant life. DE is not a polymer...not a salt....and not a chemical.
I hope this helps!
BTW...the difference between "food grade" and "normal" DE is the source of diatoms. Fossil Shell Flour is from fresh water sources...the "normal" stuff (Napa, Home Depot, etc) is from ocean sources. Food grade is nearly pure--no iron, mercury, or other heavy metal, no chemicals, etc...not so with the "normal" DE. Second difference is fineness...Fossil Shell Flour is powder (like flour) no chunks, "normal" DE is not powder-like but chunky. $35 for 50 lb bag at my local feed store.
Is the the red lake DE used as a animal feed?
Amorphous simply means non-crystalline. So yes food grade DE, AgSil 16h, are both amorphous.
Raw perlite is amorphous, just like DE and AgSil 16H, but the expanded stuff you get out of a bag is crystalline, not amorphous.
This is also the important difference between food grade DE and oil dry DE. Food Grade being amorphous, and the oil dry being fired in a kiln and calcined. This changes the DE structure from amorphous to crystalline.
I am not trying to argue against the benefits of using DE or amorphous silica( I actually useredlake earth in my soilless mixes), but rather only wanted to clarify that your statement
amorphous silica(DE) is not also known as PAS.
Raw perlite is amorphous, just like DE and AgSil 16H, but the expanded stuff you get out of a bag is crystalline, not amorphous.
This is also the important difference between food grade DE and oil dry DE. Food Grade being amorphous, and the oil dry being fired in a kiln and calcined. This changes the DE structure from amorphous to crystalline.
I am not trying to argue against the benefits of using DE or amorphous silica( I actually useredlake earth in my soilless mixes), but rather only wanted to clarify that your statement
amorphous silica(DE) is not also known as PAS.
How about montanagrow ?
Yup fer sure.... marketing hype... And yes I ran the question past a far more qualified person than myself and he tells me plants only uptake silicic acid. End of day though the question was can silicic acid act like a PGR (growth retardant) and that is a no unless you factor in the growth/defense response where if you stress a plant by overdosing it on a nutrient it will direct it resources towards defense and sure this will reduce growth and in some cases stem elongation (e.g. jasmonic acid elicits this response through antagonizing GA biosynthesis and altering bioactive IAA levels and inducing ethylene production) but then you'll also reduce yields.
Looking froward to hearing from someone at Aptus to argue the point. How about it guys, would you like to go public and explain just why your overpriced PGR (I mean silica) product acts like a chem PGR when used at double the recommended rate?
"BTW...the difference between "food grade" and "normal" DE is the source of diatoms. Fossil Shell Flour is from fresh water sources...the "normal" stuff (Napa, Home Depot, etc) is from ocean sources. Food grade is nearly pure--no iron, mercury, or other heavy metal, no chemicals, etc...not so with the "normal" DE. Second difference is fineness...Fossil Shell Flour is powder (like flour) no chunks, "normal" DE is not powder-like but chunky. $35 for 50 lb bag at my local feed store."
^^^^ well, no that's not exactly true. There is a difference between the food grade and feed grade or pool stuff. Here's something I just cut and paste from another site out of laziness (I didn't feel like tying everything out myself). I wouldn't use the feed grade because of the heavy metals in it. Cannabis can uptake those heavy meatls. Oh, by the way you can get a big bag of food grade DE for a good price if you search around online. Well worth the few extra bucks for the food grade I think. We are consuming these plants after all. Anyway here is that cut & paste -
What is the difference between food and feed grade diatomaceous earth?
Although these two types are very similar there is one very important distinction between them. Food Grade DE must meet certain specifications regarding heavy metal content. To be considered Food Grade, the Diatomaceous Earth must not contain more than 10mg/kg of arsenic and no more than 10mg/kg of lead.
What is the difference between food grade and pool grade DE?
The difference here lies with the way that each type of DE is treated. Pool grade DE is calcined, meaning that is treated with very high heat. This turns the silicon dioxide that is present in the DE into crystalline silica. Pool grade diatomaceous earth has more than 1 percent 1% (in fact, it can it can range from 60-70 percent) crystalline silica. Food Grade Diatomaceous Earth, on the other hand, has less than 1% crystalline silica and is not calcined.
What’s the difference between grey and white diatomaceous earth?
DE varies in color due to the fact that each deposit is composed of a unique makeup. The reason that Red Lake Diatomaceous Earth is brownish-grey is that, in addition to diatomaceous earth, this deposit is also enhanced with naturally occurring montmorillonite (also known as calcium bentonite).
Can pool grade DE be used for anything other than filtration?
Because of its high crystalline silica content, pool grade diatomaceous earth should not be used for anything other than filtration.
^^^^ well, no that's not exactly true. There is a difference between the food grade and feed grade or pool stuff. Here's something I just cut and paste from another site out of laziness (I didn't feel like tying everything out myself). I wouldn't use the feed grade because of the heavy metals in it. Cannabis can uptake those heavy meatls. Oh, by the way you can get a big bag of food grade DE for a good price if you search around online. Well worth the few extra bucks for the food grade I think. We are consuming these plants after all. Anyway here is that cut & paste -
What is the difference between food and feed grade diatomaceous earth?
Although these two types are very similar there is one very important distinction between them. Food Grade DE must meet certain specifications regarding heavy metal content. To be considered Food Grade, the Diatomaceous Earth must not contain more than 10mg/kg of arsenic and no more than 10mg/kg of lead.
What is the difference between food grade and pool grade DE?
The difference here lies with the way that each type of DE is treated. Pool grade DE is calcined, meaning that is treated with very high heat. This turns the silicon dioxide that is present in the DE into crystalline silica. Pool grade diatomaceous earth has more than 1 percent 1% (in fact, it can it can range from 60-70 percent) crystalline silica. Food Grade Diatomaceous Earth, on the other hand, has less than 1% crystalline silica and is not calcined.
What’s the difference between grey and white diatomaceous earth?
DE varies in color due to the fact that each deposit is composed of a unique makeup. The reason that Red Lake Diatomaceous Earth is brownish-grey is that, in addition to diatomaceous earth, this deposit is also enhanced with naturally occurring montmorillonite (also known as calcium bentonite).
Can pool grade DE be used for anything other than filtration?
Because of its high crystalline silica content, pool grade diatomaceous earth should not be used for anything other than filtration.
I also wanted to add that there is a HUGE difference between the food grade Diatomaceous Earth and the stuff they sell at Walmart etc. for Pool filters. You Can not use the pool grade stuff for your plants! The pool grade is calcined.
Sorry by the way Eclipse I mis-read your post and I didn't notice that you mentioned the normal DE having heavy metals. My bad.
Sorry by the way Eclipse I mis-read your post and I didn't notice that you mentioned the normal DE having heavy metals. My bad.
