Is coco runoff really not worth checking?

I've read quite a few posts saying that checking the runoff EC and pH is pretty much pointless...but if coco really is "hydro"...why? Because the coco ion bank holds certain things that will mislead you?

Reason I ask is that right now I'm at day 20 in flower, feeding 1.5EC 5.8pH once a day (5 gallon pots) with 20%runoff to waste. When I check the runoff it's almost always at about 0.6EC.... Doesn't this mean the plants are eating like crazy and I should be feeding more? Then I look at the plants and they all have minute tip burn, the sign you are at max EC that the plants can handle.

What gives? I'm normally the DWC guy and when EC drops you give more food....so not sure about this whole coco stuff yet.

ive never had a problem with not checking runoff ppm/ec in the 2 or so years ive been using coco. ive never even checked any of my coco's ppm/ec "right out of the bag".

i always use good quality coco though, botanicare, cyco, royal gold

i wouldnt worry bout the runoff. long as your 10-20 percent run off and the plants look healthy, then your good. run off is an approximation- its not 100 pecent. if your pants look like nute burn and your not allowing for runoff then by all means check the run off once u water. it will be some indication of whats going on.

nope they only time I have ever checked runoff is when I had visible plant issues..The only info I get is if the PH is super high/low. Sometime I will switch to se what the EC is ev though its not accurate..I have done this maybe 3-5 times in 20 years

Have you tried making a slurry and seeing what readings you get there?

"To test the pH levels your plants’ roots are dealing with, take about a 1-ounce sample of moist – not dripping wet — coco out of a container, stir it with 2.5 ounces of distilled water and measure the pH after the mixture has rested for about 20 minutes."

IMHO do not disturb the pH balance inside coco. Proper flush takes care of any lockouts. Pumping unnecessary pH down or up just messes everything and is more harmful than useful. The less down or up you need the better results you get.

Distilled water should be pH 7 so that would mess up your measurements. Who suggests something like this?

Hydrolized said:

Reason I ask is that right now I'm at day 20 in flower, feeding 1.5EC 5.8pH once a day (5 gallon pots) with 20%runoff to waste. When I check the runoff it's almost always at about 0.6EC.... Doesn't this mean the plants are eating like crazy and I should be feeding more? Then I look at the plants and they all have minute tip burn, the sign you are at max EC that the plants can handle.

Click to expand...

They're eating yes - but if you're having slight tip burn maybe drop the P a little. That can be your problem. Have you read the crucial info on coco and P, Mg and Ca balance? EC does not tell you which nutrients are being consumed, only that nutrients are consumed in general.

I've always had an issue with the idea of running parts per million tests on runoff water. Surely it contains bits of coco and dead roots which would throw the test off?

Yeah and it is more complex system than i really can understand. Coco absorbs some nutrients and never lets them out properly. So basically you really can't know if it is your plants or coco who ate it.

i measure both constantly and when its off my plants show it...


however the ph can be alittle funny on new transplants and i wouldnt worry about it until the plant has totally acquired the pot.

Poopy: Could you take it a bit deeper? I'm hungry for info. Thanks.

The EC runoff would be more accurate than the ph runoff. Best way to check ph is at the soil level where the roots reside.
The slurry test as stated above is the best way...I use those cheap Rapidtesters to get a more accurate reading of the ph in the medium.
There is a big difference in readings between runoff and the slurry test...I feel more comfortable checking at the soil level because the runoff ph is buffered as it goes through the medium...

Hi all

I found this interesting article talking about coco and run off:

Cocopeat and Watering: Mike Biggs - agronomist

In Hydroponics today, Cocopeat or Coconut Coir is now commonly being used by a large variety of gardeners. Over the last couple of years it has grown in popularity to the point that it rivals other systems in its use. As popular as it is however, it presents unique problems when compared with using inert media such as expanded clay.

Watering represents the first major difference. Even though inert media such as expanded clay hold a certain amount of water, they also have much larger air spaces than cocopeat. These air spaces allow the plant roots to easily obtain their necessary oxygen as well as water. In the case of cocopeat, these air spaces, or pores, are quite small. This results in these pores being easily filled with water displacing the air. Cocopeat thus holds more water than a medium like expanded clay. After drainage, the manufacturers suggest cocopeat holds around 250mls-300mls of easily available water per litre of cocopeat. How much of that water is actually available is also dependent on osmotic pressure of the medium or solution. For instance, at an E.C. of 3.5 (cF 35) there is only half the amount of water available to the plant compared with an E.C. of 0.5 (cF 5).

Frequency and duration of watering seems to create the most confusion when growing in cocopeat. As there are a large number of variables it is only possible to give general guidelines.
When estimating water requirements you need to take account of the cocopeat grade, plant water use and the climatic conditions. There three accepted methods of determining how much water to give your plants.

1/ Volume or Weight Measurement

As the easily available water holding capacity of cocopeat is, according to the manufacturers, generally about 250mls to 300mls per litre of cocopeat you will be able to calculate the total amount of water available to each plant by multiplying the number of litres of peat by .25. E.g. you have 10 litres of cocopeat in a pot. The calculation is therefore 10 x 0.25 =2.5 litres of water available to the plant. This assumes that you are starting with cocopeat that has been flushed with water/nutrient and drained. As you don’t want the available water to drop below 50% you will need to water again when the plant has used 1.25litres. So, how do you know when this has occurred? You can use scales under a pot and check the weight after watering. When the plant has used 1.25 litres of water the pot will weigh 1.25kgs less. You would need to check the scales frequently as the plant will grow and put on weight daily. After one crop cycle you will have a pretty good idea of the amount of water (nutrient solution) required with each irrigation.
Instead of weighing the plants, you can also measure the volume of runoff. For example, a plant in 10Ltrs of cocopeat that has used 50% of its 2.5ltrs of available water will require at least 1.25Ltrs of liquid. If in this case you were to add 2Ltrs you would only get (2Ltrs – 1.25Ltrs = 750mls of run off).
This is working with the same figures as above, i.e. assuming the cocopeat is holding 250mls-300mls of water/liter. You will often hear that cocopeat holds ten times its own weight in water. This is for absolutely dry cocopeat and should not be mistaken for the water available to the plant. Total water and available water are not the same thing, total water refers to the total volume of water retained by the cocopeat but as discussed this total volume may not all be available to the plant due to osmotic pressure.

2/ Evaporation Measurement

Using an evaporimeter will give you a very good idea of how much water has been lost to transpiration which can then be replaced through irrigation. An evaporimeter is essentially a pan with an open top which is filled with water. The water in the pan evaporates over time and the amount of water needed to refill it after 24hrs is measured. This amount of water is then given to the plants over the next 24hr period. Generally, a plant factor is calculated and added to the water amount. This plant factor is a calculation used to determine how much water a plant would transpire in relation to evaporation from the pan. Put simply, a plant will use a different amount of water when compared to evaporation according to its size and the type of plant it is. Thus a large plant will use more water and a small plant will use less water than the evaporation figure. Usually, this would end up being about 150% for large plants grown under lights.
Another way is by calculating the usage according to the climate of the area. A large (1.5 metre high x 2m wide) plant on a hot day (35oC outside) and with maximum ventilation in summer in a Mediterranean climate can use as much as 12 litres of water a day. In a 10 litre pot, this plant will need to be watered 6 to 8 times per day with 2 to 3 litres of water each time. You do need to have some water running to waste, normally 20% to 40% of the amount of the input water. Use correspondingly less with smaller plants, in cooler climates and in winter By way of example, it is entirely possible that a small plant growing in an environment with temperatures ranging between 12oC – 25oC may only need watering once every three to five days. Keep an eye on the drain water. If it starts to come through the bottom of the pot well before the irrigation cycle stops then the medium was probably already wet and you will need to water less.

3/ Leachate (run off) measurement for tap or ground water and R.O water.

This technique requires you to measure the conductivity of the water draining from the plants after irrigation. This is perhaps the most practical method for indoor growers.
First you measure the conductivity of the fresh nutrient solution. After irrigating, measure the conductivity of the leachate (run off). This is the water draining from the bottom of the pot. This should measure about 3CF; 0.3E.C. or about 240ppm higher than the original nutrient solution. If the drainage water conductivity is higher than these guidelines, then you are not irrigating enough and you should increase frequency and volume of irrigation. If the conductivity is lower and you are not using de-ionised water and the plants are more than about three weeks old, then you are probably giving them too much water. As cocopeat drains well, this is not as big a problem as under watering. However, it is possible to over water and thus deprive plant’s roots of essential oxygen. With all run to waste systems, you would usually need to have between 20% to 40% running out of the medium depending on the quality of the water supply and the stage of growth of your plants. A safe minimum figure is about 30% run to waste but it may be less when the plants are small and much more with larger plants and water that is a bit saline. Generally, in the first couple of weeks of growth you will get a lot of the water running through the pot as at this stage, uptake is low but a reasonable amount of water is required to keep the medium moist. In this case there is often no change in the conductivity between what goes in and what comes out. That is, if you water with one litre of water, you will get most of that one litre of water draining out. Try to water young plants in such a way that you get just a little bit of drainage.

With larger plants the idea behind giving an amount of water that will produce the 20% to 40% run off is to wash out the unused nutrient salts and the accumulated sodium chloride (salt) that is introduced into the medium along with the bore or tap water. If you are in doubt then 40% run to waste would be a happy medium. It is a good idea to give two or three waterings with plain water once week to help flush out salts. On no account should you do this for more than one day at a time. If you are using very hard water you should flush the medium with a mild nutrient solution rather than plain water.

For R.O water the same rules don’t quite apply. If there is no accumulation of unwanted salts, the conductivity of the leachate is unlikely to rise above that of the input solution. If the leachate is kept 0.3 E.C. below the input solution it will be about right. This situation is unlikely as the peat has its own salt and readily retains salts. If it does happen you know your cocopeat has been well flushed. The amount of water run to waste in this case, will usually be closer to 10%-20% as opposed to 20% - 40%. Incidentally, as in all growing, the best crops will always be obtained with R.O water, rain water or water with very low background conductivity.

So why aren’t the plants watered continuously as in NFT, for instance? Coupled with the need for water is the need for air. Cocopeat, along with soils and potting mixes of all sorts consist of solid particles interspersed with air spaces. When the medium is saturated just after a watering, the air is driven out of the medium to be replaced by water. As the medium begins to get drier through plant uptake, drainage and evaporation, air begins to re-enter. This process continues until there is no further water to be lost.

A question often asked is “is it possible to have a recirculating system using cocopeat?” The answer is yes. Our trials have shown that there is no problem running a recirculating system provided you use a nutrient designed for cocopeat and you renew the cocopeat after each growing cycle. This recirculating system is not continuous as in NFT but is intermittent. You don’t change your irrigation practices but just re-use the drainage water. It pays to dump the solution weekly as the nutrient will become too unbalanced if left too long. Also, it pays to use Regen-A-Root, Bio Balancer and Wiltguard in the solution to prevent pathogen build-up. The guidelines regarding conductivity of solution and drainage still apply to recirculating solutions. In this case, just maintain the solution within the desired range with the addition of either water or nutrient but in general, you will find that the nutrient conductivity will be constantly rising. The frequency and duration of watering guidelines also apply.
We would suggest that you water a minimum of four times a day for large plants and adjust the duration according to the leachate conductivity. Even though this seems a bit complicated, in practice it is quite easy. One of these irrigations can be at night. In practice, it is better to irrigate smaller amounts more frequently and the exact amount can be worked out using the weighing and/or leachate conductivity methods.

We have sometimes seen growers putting some other material, such as expanded clay, in the bottom of the pot to hopefully improve drainage. Does this work? The short answer is no. Even though the speed of the water travelling through the pot may increase other problems such a larger saturated area (perched water table) at the bottom of the pot may arise. All media have a certain amount of saturated area (called the perched water table) at the bottom when water has stopped draining from the pot. This area is always the same depth in the same medium regardless of the depth of the pot. For example, if the particular cocopeat you are using has a perched water table of 4mm in a 200mm deep pot then the perched water table will still be 4mm even in a shallow dish. This means that there is always a saturated area at the bottom of the pot straight after watering. Obviously, how long it remains saturated will depend on how often you water but it is easily possible for it to be saturated most of the time. The plant roots in this saturated area are deprived of oxygen. In a deep pot, the ratio of saturated medium to total medium is quite small. In a shallow pot this ratio increases markedly. If you put drainage material in the bottom of the pot then you are just making the medium shallower and increasing the ratio of saturated medium and the problem with this is that the ratio of air to water reduces and the plant roots are deprived of oxygen in this more saturated medium. If you are trying to lighten the mix then you are better to mix perlite thoroughly with the cocopeat in a ratio of about 60% cocopeat to 40% perlite.

touringfunkband said:

Have you tried making a slurry and seeing what readings you get there?

"To test the pH levels your plants’ roots are dealing with, take about a 1-ounce sample of moist – not dripping wet — coco out of a container, stir it with 2.5 ounces of distilled water and measure the pH after the mixture has rested for about 20 minutes."

Click to expand...

Pretty close to my own method, except I use RO/DI water and measure its parameters first, then make the slurry. I've also measured results allowing the slurry to sit for varying periods of time, and it seems that, for EC & pH, 7 minutes is about the golden time. Allowing it longer doesn't seem to make any difference. I've gone as long as 15 minutes, would have to review my notes to see if I've ever let it set as long as 20.

prowler said:

Poopy: Could you take it a bit deeper? I'm hungry for info. Thanks.

Click to expand...

not much to take.. monitoring you runoff ph and ec allow you to see where your pots sit. if they are off you plants will be off as well...

keep it between 5.4 - 6.2 ph but you want it at 5.8 and your EC should ALWAYS come out very close to what ever you are putting in... If its high you feeding to high or have lockout because of ph issues. If low you feeding to low. watch these numbers and you should have nice plants.

i check EC of the run off water.. it does help to kee track of what goes in and what comes out.

exactly as Flapz cuotes from the agronomist guide; in general i think all the info in the post is 100% accurate. the best thing is to learn from the pro's. agronomist are engineers and scientist . they provide the info the food we eat are grown with.

i read long time ago profesional hydroponic vegetable growers have a +0.3 ec flush tollerance. it means if u water with 1.2 ec nutes max acceptable run off EC is 1.5 ec.

best part of Flaps cuote

First you measure the conductivity of the fresh nutrient solution. After irrigating, measure the conductivity of the leachate (run off). This is the water draining from the bottom of the pot. This should measure about 3CF; 0.3E.C. or about 240ppm higher than the original nutrient solution. If the drainage water conductivity is higher than these guidelines, then you are not irrigating enough and you should increase frequency and volume of irrigation. If the conductivity is lower and you are not using de-ionised water and the plants are more than about three weeks old, then you are probably giving them too much water

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keep to this and you wont fail ever growing in coco..

PoopyTeaBags said:

not much to take.. mionitoring you runoff ph and ec allow you to see where your pots sit. if they are off you plants will be off as well...

keep it between 5.4 - 6.2 ph but you want it at 5.8 and your EC should ALWAYS come out very close to what ever you are putting in... If its high you feeding to high or have lockout because of ph issues. If low you feeding to low. watch these numbers and you should have nice plants.

Click to expand...

This is exactly why I made this post...wasn't really about pH at all my pH is good...but since I'm watering with 1.5EC and getting only 0.6EC out....should mean I'm wayyyy under feeding...but then there is the tip burn....so maybe it's a P overdose while the plants want more of everything else? Im not sure how I would cut just the P since I'm using a 2 part nutrient and cutting down on the NB will also be cutting back on the K and whatever else is in the B ...right?

If it really is a P overfert then I'm guessing I most certainly should not add the "top booster" and "bud XL" to my regimen as called for starting this week by the House and Garden schedule....as both of those things are pretty much just P and K...right?

im very suprised by your runoff being so low... are you recirculating your water or going drip to waste?

Currently I am in 5 gallon pots, hand watering once a day. My mix is 750ppm (1.5EC) on the dot, and every single night the runoff comes out around 300-350PPM (0.6-0.7EC) between the different plants. I vacuum out the runoff and throw it out..I don't want to reuse 0.6EC water that has obviously had things stripped from it by the coco/plants. This is really perplexing me.

if you let the coco dry out, does that raise or lower the pH in the coco?