Cynobacteria/Pythium...... pH drop - Help

Hi all, hopefully I can get some help here.

So, I run individual 5 gallon buckets, small space here, so 1 or 2 at a time DWC style using Advanced Nutrients. I insulate the buckets with insulation wrapped around to keep the temps about 63 - 68 F. It never goes up higher than that. Environment is like 75 F at 49% RH.

I just harvested 2 plants that did very well, which was my first grow by the way. I used the Advanced Nutrients line and did the whole microbes stuff with their products. I think using all that kinda saved my ass since I didn't know what the hell I was doing the first round.

I started a new seed, C99 that is 49 days old today. This time however, at 41 days, I started seeing brown stuff collecting at the sides of the dry part of the DWC bucket. A little research tells me it's the beginning of root rot.

So, on day 41, I sterilzed the bucket and everything, soaked the plant in strong solution of 29% H2O2 (like 250 mL to the 5 gallon bucket) and let it bubble all the stuff off. The roots were nice and white and clean again. Mixed a new batch of nutrients, but still using the Voodoo Juice, Tarantula and Pirahna bennies.

I see the roots clumping together again around some brown sediment like stuff on day 43, plus that brown stuff. Did the same thing again. Put it back into reservoir with the bennies from AN.

Finally Day 45, I start seeing the same shit. So I'm like maybe I have light leaks, so I cover every single thing I can see that might cause light leaks, and decided to run sterile. So, I go through the whole treatment again, except this time, just Grow A + Grow B + B-52 + Rhino Skin + 10 mL of 29% H2O2. Should be sterile.

Ever since running it sterile for a few days..... no more brown stuff etc... but my pH is dropping drastically. BTW, I'm only at 50% nutrient strength. Right after mixing the new batch of nutrients, my ppm was about 900 and pH at 5.8. Not bad. I use RO Water by the way.

Today, it's ppm is still at 900 but pH now reads 4.7!!! Ok, meter bad or needs calibration. I have a Bluelab pen and the combo meter. Both calibrated and both reading the same values.

Only thought is does H2O2 bring pH down that much? I understand H2O2 doesn't last too long. I look in the reservoir, still bubbling nicely and not smelling bad. Just smells like plant. if that makes sense, not like the smell of the brown stuff.

Should I change out the reservoir? Should I add more H2O2 since I did read somewhere that root rot stuff will lower pH.

The bottom fan leaves are also getting yellow on the tips and getting limp (I guess after 3 H2O2 washes, I would be limp too!!)

What do you all think is going on?

I can provide more information if needed.

Thanks

when you have something attacking your roots, it will drop your ph daily at extreme amounts while the ppm stays the same.

if you have tried this twice to fix then something is not working.

Two options would be to start breeding your bene's independently and adding into your res as a tea. Heisenberg's Tea/DWC Slime fix would be a good place to start. I have never tried his tea, so i can't give any firsthand knowledge.

The other option would to be to run a sterile res using either some kind of bleach (pool shock) or Dutch Master Gold Zone. I have tried both and like DMZ since you don't have to add it back as much but the former is cheaper.

Hi Sampson, I have to same train of thought is you. Just wanted to post to validate. So right now, obviously time is a huge factor. The stuff to brew the tea is on order. Then it'll take some time to brew. So my only logical thinking would be to run it sterile for now. Are you saying that hydrogen peroxide is just not strong enough and additive for now?

growdc said:

Hi Sampson, I have to same train of thought is you. Just wanted to post to validate. So right now, obviously time is a huge factor. The stuff to brew the tea is on order. Then it'll take some time to brew. So my only logical thinking would be to run it sterile for now. Are you saying that hydrogen peroxide is just not strong enough and additive for now?

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i have never tried peroxide, but have had success with the other two. i can't remember why peroxide wasn't a long term fix, maybe someone else knows more or you can find it somewhere by searching.

i would look more into bleach (household with no additives and check around for how much to use - usually about 5-8 drops per gallon) and watch your ph/smell your reservoir. usually after 2-3 days the bleach is all gone and you need to add another 2-5 drops. i say bleach only because you can get it anywhere and start treating it now if you want. i don't know if you use city water or ro (don't remember), but if you use city water then be more careful using bleach since there may be some in the supply.

I have no experience with the heisenberg tea so i don't know how quickly it will work or how going from sterile to active will work out.

Where there any signs from your plants to indicated that they where being affected in any adverse kind of way before you took the steps that you took?

I don't use H2O2, so I'm not familiar with it's actions on the PH. Other things when used as a "treatment" of some kind for issues can affect the PH of the water/nutrient solution. That said, I'd say re-adjust your PH by adding PH up to bring the PH back to your set PH range. Continue to check the PH daily for the next 3-5 days and re-adjust you PH and with in a week you'll see the swing getting less and less.

The next option which you could take would be to change out you current nutrients for all freshly mixed solution. Changing out all your water removes a large volume of contaminates that where in you water, or still left over. If you use beneficial bacteria, you'd want to add them into your fresh nutrient solution. The Benies when in the right ratios out compete any bad bacteria and prevent them from becoming established. While using Benies, H2O2 will kill them off too.

Thank you all for your help. I think I have a game plan and want to run it by you guys.

But first: Ganoderma: The signs are that the root started clumping together, the side of the bucket, the part above the water, has some algae looking type of brown stuff, the nutrient solution is cloudy (started out clear), and the smell starts to smell like a dirty river.

From what I've read and researched....... God, can't the internet be just accurate for once, and not a million people saying their methods are gospel. You all remember the good old days? (rant over)

Anyway, I understand that pythium root rot starts out with this bacteria called cyanobacteria. It doesn't need light to thrive and is also pretty happy in colder waters, they just multiply slower. This brown cyanobacteria eventually starts coating the roots and the roots start getting that white slime. Then when pythium sets in (apparently it's a pathogen, and you know there are pathogens everywhere unless you live in a sterilized box!), that's when the slime gets brown and the pythium starts feeding on the roots.

Did I get that more or less correct?

Well, I think I caught it early, before much damage can happen. The brown stuff can still be washed off the roots without breaking them. I have sterilized and sterilized and sterilized, and each time, it only takes 2 days for the brown algae stuff to coat the walls and the reservoir being cloudy.

Someone of Facebook suggested that I run sterile (I had been using AN Piranha, Tarantula and Voodoo Juice), by inoculating with 29% H2O2. No bennies at all. So I just went basic, Grow A + Grow B + H2O2. 2 days later, they come back. Ok, I thought maybe I missed cleaning something...... ran the same routine, 2 days later, they came back. And you can guess, 3rd time (now), it's back.

Then I read on about this Heisenberg Tea (plus a whole battle debate to run sterile or not), but time is an essence right? I got to order the special fungi and EWC etc. Then it takes 2 days to brew, but something has to be done now. The plants are wilting, the bottom leaves tips are yellowing.

So, my game plan is to start brewing the tea tonight (everything finally came in. I broke and spent more at the hydro store for the EWC..... which by the way, the hydro guy said that my cheapo lights caused the pythium and that if I went with his $2000, it'll make the plant so strong it in itself will fight the pythium on it's own. The BIGGEST LOAD OF CRAP i've heard, but I digress).

So, start brewing tea tonight.
Inoculate every day with H2O2
When tea is ready, do a reservoir change, but also flushing off the excess H2O2 (cause they will kill the good stuff too).
Put the plant back into the new reservoir and drink lots of tea with it. (I don't want her tea time to be alone.)

So? Thoughts?

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention Ganoderma, is that a sudden drop in pH like mine, from 5.8 to 4.7 overnight is a sure sign of cyanobacteria..... again.... according to the internet.

why h2o2, why not bleach? it is stronger and cheaper. there are plenty of resources available around here especially if you check out pool shock. either way, it's only a couple days so you can ride it out until then.

Hi SamsonsRiddle, Hydro store people were the ones that told me to use 29% H2O2 and that bleach is detrimental to the plants. I guess he just wanted to sell me the H2O2.

Update: The daily innoculation of H2O2 seems to be helping out. The water this morning has cleared up slightly. The roots look whiter. But no new growth. pH seems to have stabilized at 4.7. ppm went higher, but I think the roots are now able to drink water, cuz the water level's have dropped.

I brewed some tea using MycoGrow, Carbo Load and Ancient Forrest. Messy messy stuff. They say to brew for 48 hours, but I think I'm going to use a little at 24 hours, get a quick start, let the rest brew up to 48 hours and then report the results.

They weren't kidding saying that root rot is like the major issue for Hydroponic growers especially commercial green houses.

According to the "Hydro Store" guy, commercial MMJ growers in the District come into the store and buy bennies by the gallon. So, if he's telling the truth, it looks like commercial greenhouses choose bennies instead of sterile, because I think I know how hard it is to get an entire greenhouse sterile.

Thoughts?

SamsonsRiddle said:

why h2o2, why not bleach? it is stronger and cheaper. there are plenty of resources available around here especially if you check out pool shock. either way, it's only a couple days so you can ride it out until then.

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Oh by the way, how much bleach would you use?

growdc said:

Oh by the way, how much bleach would you use?

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when you run sterile, there are certain additives that you can't use since they are organic or semi-organic. well, you can use them but they won't work as they should. one that comes to mind is floralicious plus.

the benefit is that it is easier, in my case, to just add 1-2ml/gallon of Dutch Master Gold Zone during my res changes than it is to find more space for a bucket to brew tea in.

When using bleach i use 5-8 drops per gallon when first introducing, then 2-5 2-3 days later when the water no longer smells like bleach. it's much better to get a chlorine meter, but your hydro store guys must not sell those. pool shock is cheap as fuck and hydro stores don't want you to know that. they also don't want you to know that chlorine is an element that is good for plants at the right concentration. if you look around there is a how-to on the amount of pool shock to use and how to make it easier to add to the reservoir.

I've never tried teas, so i can't really give their finer points.

SamsonsRiddle said:

when you run sterile, there are certain additives that you can't use since they are organic or semi-organic. well, you can use them but they won't work as they should. one that comes to mind is floralicious plus.

the benefit is that it is easier, in my case, to just add 1-2ml/gallon of Dutch Master Gold Zone during my res changes than it is to find more space for a bucket to brew tea in.

When using bleach i use 5-8 drops per gallon when first introducing, then 2-5 2-3 days later when the water no longer smells like bleach. it's much better to get a chlorine meter, but your hydro store guys must not sell those. pool shock is cheap as fuck and hydro stores don't want you to know that. they also don't want you to know that chlorine is an element that is good for plants at the right concentration. if you look around there is a how-to on the amount of pool shock to use and how to make it easier to add to the reservoir.

I've never tried teas, so i can't really give their finer points.

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Thanks so much for the bleach information. So an update:

I brewed some tea with a handful of Ancient Forest, 2 tsp of MycoGro soluble, a dash of Orka and 6 mL of Carbo Load, just because I have it, in 1 gallon of RO water.

Suppose to brew for 48 hours, but I needed it sooner, so I thought, I'll just take a cup of 24 hour tea, strain it, change out the reservoir and pour it in. I was surprised that there is absolutely no smell to the tea.

Anyway, this morning, my ppm went significantly down, pH went down by 0.1 point, instead before, my ppm's would not change and the pH would go down over night as much as 1 whole value. like from 5.7 to 4.7 overnight. So, I'm just presuming that my girl is liking the tea, eating up nutrients, but there might be still a little bacteria left to fight because pH still went down a tad.

So tonight, I will strain the rest of the tea and it'll have brewed for 48 hours, and I'll pour in another cup and report back!!

Finger's crossed.

growdc said:

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention Ganoderma, is that a sudden drop in pH like mine, from 5.8 to 4.7 overnight is a sure sign of cyanobacteria..... again.... according to the internet.

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I have have actually seen first hand other things that will and can cause the PH to drop like yours that you described. You should always keep in mind that there are many things that can on the surface look to be caused by one thing when if fact there was on other reason. I've seen the PH drop like that too and it was caused by something I did. I added in neem oil and a little dish soap to my Res so the plant cold up take the neem via it's roots. The next day the PH dropped down to 4.6 or 4.7 from around 6.3. I added PH up and the level would rise, but the next day it would fall back down to 4.6-4.7, after 4-5 days of adjusting the PH daily it stabilized.

I've seen Nutrient solution that is low in PPM's raise in PH to 7-8 and when just a slight amount of PH down is added it falls to the 4.7 range. This is due to your ppm's being so low and when more nutrients are added in the PH is no longer swinging wildly due to the effects of the low amount/ppm's of your nutrient solution.

Ganoderma said:

I have have actually seen first hand other things that will and can cause the PH to drop like yours that you described. You should always keep in mind that there are many things that can on the surface look to be caused by one thing when if fact there was on other reason. I've seen the PH drop like that too and it was caused by something I did. I added in neem oil and a little dish soap to my Res so the plant cold up take the neem via it's roots. The next day the PH dropped down to 4.6 or 4.7 from around 6.3. I added PH up and the level would rise, but the next day it would fall back down to 4.6-4.7, after 4-5 days of adjusting the PH daily it stabilized.

I've seen Nutrient solution that is low in PPM's raise in PH to 7-8 and when just a slight amount of PH down is added it falls to the 4.7 range. This is due to your ppm's being so low and when more nutrients are added in the PH is no longer swinging wildly due to the effects of the low amount/ppm's of your nutrient solution.

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Hi Ganoderma,

Thanks for giving me an example of why pH would drop drastically. But through work (not growing, but experimentation) experience, I've really tried to eliminate all other possible variables to really try to hone in on what the problem is. I know I've honed it to something biological with the roots & nutrients that's for sure. Whether it's cynobacteria, pythium or the bird flu, I don't know. LOL. (on a side note, I suddenly got pink eye yesterday.... maybe it's pink eye that's in my res?)

I've thoroughly insulated and light proofed the bucket. I use a paper plate with a slit to cover the exposed media of the plant. I have had temperatures go up to 80F, but when I check the temp of the res, it's still at 66F. I probably got to share this super easy awesome and convenient way I've found to insulate.... more on that.

I sterilized all my equipment with both bleach and H2O2, then recalibrated 2 different ppm & pH instruments. So I think I'm good there.

I use ceramic airstones that have bubbled in 5.6 solution for a while before I started using it. And these are new air stones, not the ones when I was suffering from the slime.

For the nutes now, I just use plain ol' RO Water, Grow A + Grow B formula + Cal Mag to treat the RO water first (so I can use my pH meter without destroying it). Then the tea. That's it. And I've scaled down my nutes to 50% of what is recommended. I took out the silica, the B-52, any other store bought bennies. Just a KISS reservoir. Giving me a ppm of base 500 of about 1000 ppm.

Do you think you can think of asking me if I've done any other possible thing that I might have taken for granted or not even realized?

So, update:
2nd night (last night), I poured yet another cup of tea (now 48 hour brewed, and kept the rest in the fridge) through the grow media, very slowly, so the hydroton (which by the way was also rinsed and pH'ed before using.) would absorb some of the tea as it trickle's its way down to the reservoir.

3rd day morning, right now that is, my ppm's raised a little, to 1100. But pH has not dropped at all. still steady at 5.7. Water doesn't smell. It's cloudy, but sediment cloudy.... not like milk cloudy, if that makes sense. lol.

In fact, water smells like nothing to be honest..... not even aquarium or pond like smell like before, just a slight smell like fresh cut grass.

So, I'm hoping that based on what I've noticed evidence wise..... the tea is helping, and it might just be a matter or time.

The roots, no slime. However, you know where the root grows, then there are little like fishbone hairs about 2 mm long growing out of the main root? it's like the tip of each of these little hairs has a teeny dot of brown. But the rest of the roots are white. Just the tip. I hope that's the good bennies stuck on it. Like since I can't filter every sediment out from the tea.

Above ground growth. Not much happening, but no more wilting. The wilted yellow fan leaves are still the same, but I don't think they will turn green again..... and I've noticed that the leaves that didn't wilt are now darker.... like they are taking in nitrogen.

I also started foliar feeding last night with 1/2 RO + 1/2 tea solution in a spray bottle.

Also, I had to top off 1 L of RO water + Cal Mag at ph 5.8 because that's how much they drank after the first application of the 24 hour tea. But after adding the 2nd cup of 48 hour tea, no water level drops or reading changes.

I think this is as best as I can to describe what my plants look like now.

So out of all this, at least my pH is not dropping like crazy anymore. It's not raising either, but at least it's not flying all over the place. Maybe this is the period where the plant is trying to heal itself first before eating? (this is totally conjecture)

What do you all think?

sounds like things are starting to go in the right direction. if you are pouring tea through the media you should start to notice some small bursts of white root growth when looking underneath the lid in the bottom of the hydroton. this is a good sign. just take it a day at a time, and no ph swing will make it easier to notice the other things going on.

Day 3 of tea treatment

Day 3 of tea treatment

SamsonsRiddle said:

sounds like things are starting to go in the right direction. if you are pouring tea through the media you should start to notice some small bursts of white root growth when looking underneath the lid in the bottom of the hydroton. this is a good sign. just take it a day at a time, and no ph swing will make it easier to notice the other things going on.

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Hey SamsonsRiddle,

So, it's been like 2 days of tea treatment. This morning would be 3rd day morning. All there, ppm, water level & pH are the same. Which is puzzling as to what's happening down there.

My roots look semi healthy, but clumpy. Those dots at the end of the fishbone roots are still there. No visible signs of slime, and touch doesn't feel like slime either.

Smell doesn't smell bad. Still smells like almost nothing but a slight smell of fresh cut grass.

Take a look at my roots. Is this normal in the healing phase? I don't see new roots. Is 3 days too quickly to access if the tea is working? Should I add more tea? Should I do a reservoir change?
If I do the reservoir change, I'm assuming it's better to just change and add the tea, no rising of the roots with any H2O2 or bleach right?

What do you all think?

If the molasses hasn't been eaten out (haha) of the tea yet, be careful pouring the tea in a suspect rez. You may feed the wrong guys.
Get a good nose of the molasses bottle and then smell your tea. If you haven't read it yet microbeorganics . com is helpful with percentages of 'x' per gallon and other practices

Tea is a mess. And sometimes just does not work.
My battle:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=327021

That sounds right my ph is going down roots are white as snow upon moving my ph meter in the epic center of my under current system the ppm went from a 120ppm reading to a 300ppm reading and ph went from 5.5-5.1 in a day and the top off res is at 6.5 I pumped 1/3 of the system out and turned on the top off valve and the ph is still at 5.1.Im gonna fully flush system w uc roots and set ph 5.5-6.1 and keep my fingers crossed just about to flippem.
But I need to get this ph under control and ppm's reset.Any ideas guys ?