Cannabis Taxonomy Research

Mountain · Mar 4, 2011

highonmt said:
Not knowing what the nature of your experiment is I can't offer too much advise but if you pm me perhaps I can be of assistance.

Thx for that offer as most here would not. Would be an interesting discussion to have for shits and giggles someday.

Anyway...as for the topic of this thread and genetic analysis of canna from around the world I would think if the research was adequate it would resolve some/all of the questions raised? So is it just inadequate genetic research so far? I would think with something 'illegal' like canna that the in-depth genetic research necessary to answer the question(s) has not been possible yet or fully explored? If the research was definitive then I would not expect much room for disagreement or is it just interpretation of available data?

I'm pretty much lost in threads like this but try and keep up.

Sam_Skunkman · Mar 6, 2011

This is not really true.
If we tested a bud sample via HPLC and GC the results were very very close to the same. And if we run the same sample several times via our GC we always get the same results.
An HPLC just needs to have the acid and neutral forms of the Cannabinoids added together to give pretty much the same results as the GC will.
Many problems I have seen in the past pertained to fact that analytical standards were not as claimed by the sellers, once this is resolved then you need to be sure your work is repeatable and the same as other labs working in the field. AOAC validation may or may not be possible for a Cannabis testing lab, I don't know. Is the lab 100% legal?
-SamS

elmanito said:
Different methods gives different results,As long as they're not using a method which is harmonized & validated by AOAC ,different test results will continue.

Namaste

GreenintheThumb · Mar 6, 2011

Yeah, the new cleanup bill will make these labs 100% legal and they'll get their licenses through the department of revenue just like the dispensary and grow licenses. It's funny one of the labs that uses HPLC tried to grab a Schedule 1 DEA license before all this was worked out. Results? Well they got raided of course. They're still plugging away and testing wares god bless 'em. Hopefully when everyone's properly licensed and the DOR is watching over everything the 17-33% variance would be much smaller.

We send our products to a lab that's using HPLC. I don't even know why the thin layer chromatography is in business to be honest. The problem is the higher the results for your cannabinoids the more likely a center will continue to get their medicine tested their. For most this doesn't have to do with accuracy but marketing. I personally hounded the DOR to get them to understand this and to eliminate a provision which would have required even small centers to test every type of medicine on the shelf. No reason to waste all this money when the results mean next to nothing and they're not even dialed in yet. There's plenty of 15% herb I'd rather have over 22%. Hopefully eventually they encompass the entire flavinoid and terpene profile of our samples. Now that I'd be interested in looking at.

Mountain · Mar 6, 2011

elmanito said:
Different methods gives different results,As long as they're not using a method which is harmonized & validated by AOAC ,different test results will continue.

Sam - I'd have to agree with Elmanito. If the lab is not using an accepted validated test method, and especially if they are not using good standards, I would not expect the results from different test methods and different labs, even if they are both using the same equipment, to match. They could be close or way off.

Is the lab 100% legal?

Any legal lab I've worked with uses approved validated methods. I'm guessing part of the problem is some closet hacks getting into the testing game.

GreenintheThumb - is Industrial Labs in CO offering canna testing services yet? I've used them on and off for 20 years. Industrial only uses accepted validated test methods. Being a professional independent lab I'd expect nothing less.

GreenintheThumb · Mar 6, 2011

Nope Industrial Labs does not test medical marijuana. In fact every lab that's set up doing this sort of work is solely working with MMJ. It's not like reputable labs that have been vetted for years are switching over to work with cannabis. It's probably part of the problem.

Sam_Skunkman · Mar 7, 2011

I guess what I meant was that we did not validate our lab with the AOAC yet we did get reproducible results that were confirmed by sending the same samples to the two oldest labs doing the most Cannabinoid analytical testing for years and years.
GC's and HPLC's will give the same results, think about it, otherwise neither would be reliable. But they must be done correctly, with good dependable standards.
I also look forward to analysis including Cannabinoids & Terpenoids, this will help consumers make wiser decisions when picking which Cannabis might be most useful.
-SamS

Cannabologist · Mar 8, 2011

Sam_Skunkman said:
Are you saying birds don't spread Cannabis seeds?
I have found plants growing in the shit of chickens I fed Cannabis seeds, most birds crack open the seeds when they eat them, if they don't then some will sprout when shit out. Animals do the same, like rats and mice and a lot more. Have you ever fed birds Cannabis seeds? I have for many many years....
-SamS

- Yes, that’s what I was saying, until you nailed me on it

- I didn’t know that about seeds, that’s interesting to know; so birds, and other animals as well, can eat Cannabis seeds and have them pass through undigested enough to germinate and grow... I’ve never heard of that with Cannabis seeds. Awesome.

Cannabologist · Mar 8, 2011

highonmt said:
If you could just scale back the size of your posts It will be easier to have a disscussion. Oh and subspeciation is indeed a word you should just google before calling bs.

- It would be impossible to scale back on the information that needs to be stated on any particular subject, and making multiple separate posts to the same person would be rather difficult. I don't see how making a long post impedes any discussion, it just takes thoroughness.

- I had never heard that word used, or ever seen it in a paper. And of course as soon as I google it, I see it used in papers.

- I still stand by what I say for the most part about speciation (that's hard headed of me

), as scientists love to invent things, but sometimes the new thing is just the old thing relabeled.
- In that regard, I don’t see why there needs to be “speciation” and “subspeciation”. Perhaps to denote speciation of a subspecies, but ALL species really are subspecies, and speciation IS subspeciation, what is the difference? Speciation is the formation of a new species from a parent population. It is by definition a subspecies from the parent species. Even though the word exists, it’s a superfluous word to me by definition. Of anyone I know, I’ve never heard it used in an academic or even any other setting. Again, it’s the first time I’ve seen the word, which is why I didn't think it was a real word. Strange and interesting I suppose.

whodare · Mar 8, 2011

at this point in time even if we discovered that it is one species would we want to reclassify?

i mean we use the three species now to identify unique traits they carry and their effects... seems to me its easier to leave it at that...

i mean do we want to label our buds and an "indica", or a sativa with short flower times, compact stature, denser bud structure, and shorter internodal length

would we call an AF ruderalis a, sativa that flowers independently of light cycle, is less potent, and smaller than average...

just sayin i like having it classified like it is... makes conversation, and general description easier...

Mountain · Mar 8, 2011

Sam_Skunkman said:
GC's and HPLC's will give the same results, think about it, otherwise neither would be reliable. But they must be done correctly, with good dependable standards.

I agree and think Elmanito would also.

Sam_Skunkman · Mar 10, 2011

I was not sure as he said "different methods give different results" I hope you are right. Because HPLC's and GC's do give almost the same results if both are done correctly.
-SamS

Mountain said:
I agree and think Elmanito would also.

elmanito · Mar 10, 2011

Actually i meant when different methods (also sampling, different solvents etc) are used by different labs.When GC & HPLC is used by 1 lab, the results will be the same i agree with that, but different labs will give differents results.

Namaste :plant grow:

highonmt · Mar 11, 2011

whodare said:
at this point in time even if we discovered that it is one species would we want to reclassify?

i mean we use the three species now to identify unique traits they carry and their effects... seems to me its easier to leave it at that...

i mean do we want to label our buds and an "indica", or a sativa with short flower times, compact stature, denser bud structure, and shorter internodal length

would we call an AF ruderalis a, sativa that flowers independently of light cycle, is less potent, and smaller than average...

just sayin i like having it classified like it is... makes conversation, and general description easier...

I do appreciate the benefits of retaining the current state of nomenclature regaurding the cannabis genus, however if genetics reveals that this is a monotypic genus; the view which I support btw; I am in support of reclassification but I see your point thanks for posting.
HM

Sam_Skunkman · Mar 11, 2011

FYI,
Different labs, some using GC some using HPLC can give the same results if everything was done correctly with dependable standards.
-SamS

elmanito said:
Actually i meant when different methods (also sampling, different solvents etc) are used by different labs.When GC & HPLC is used by 1 lab, the results will be the same i agree with that, but different labs will give differents results.

Namaste

bonbolos · Mar 11, 2011

hello

do you if there are some labs that do also DNA analysis for cannabis?

cheers

bonbolos

GreenintheThumb · Mar 11, 2011

Not in CO they don't. Every lab tech i've ever talked to wasn't even aware of the male markers...

Mountain · Mar 12, 2011

bonbolos said:
hello

do you if there are some labs that do also DNA analysis for cannabis?

cheers

bonbolos

Man DNA analysis can't be cheap. Something I barely even looked into at one point. Anyone know what the general cost is for an analysis?

bonbolos · Mar 12, 2011

Man DNA analysis can't be cheap.

yeah you right but it depends on the amount of samples you have and what you want to do, I don't need sequencing or qtl analysis

I would be interested in a basic genotyping of a germaplasm, like 200 samples with AFLP (even if patented tech) or microsat analysis.

anyway if anyone knows a lab that can do it on cannabis I would be interested

cheers

bonbolos

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