Flood and drain with smart pots / hydroton?

Madlabscientist · Jul 15, 2015

Alpha Phase said:
I try to keep the water Temps under 70 degrees, but I don't have a chiller so it's tough. I throw a frozen gallon water jug in the res once or twice a day if I remember and it usually stays between 65 and 75 degrees. I've always worried about water Temps in my flood tables but recently a fellow grow friend said water Temps don't matter much with flood trays, but I'm not sure how accurate that is

Hey Alpha phase i just read a thread where the guy said he was using ebb and flow tables for 20 years in the usa and res temps
didnt matter to him...

Alpha Phase · Jul 15, 2015

Thanks for the link to the rockwool, I'll check it out at my next trip to the hydro shop.

Im flooding about 3" below the top of the tray, about 2/3 of the smart pot. I can't really raise the flood level any higher because the next drain riser I would add would be flooding too high I think, all of the hydroton that that net pots sit on is completely flooded and some of the net pot in the smart pot is flooded as well, I'm hoping this will work out in the end and next run I'll be able to modify it a bit more to get a higher flood level.

That's good to know that I can set a net pot on the tray, I never really knew if the root mass would be enough but the more I see people growing 5' plants on a 6" Hugo block, it's making sense now

I meant the plants have two weeks left for veg time before I have to flower them. Damn auto correct lol, disregard the "eat" in that sentence lol

BadRabbit said:
I definitely think the lack of air circulation with the closed lid will be a factor. I'm betting that's your RW issue right there.

I think, if I read your method right, of flooding only to the bottom of the hydroton pots is not enough. Hydroton does not "wick up" very well at all and you'll really limit the effective root space that way. Definitely need to flood up to or near the top of the pot.

RW wicks up extremely well ... you could just flood the bottom inch or so and it should wick up through the entire pot just fine.

In either case though, flooding up to or near the top of the grow media is much preferred and will provide better results with fewer complications.

It's kinda cool that your set up keeps the pots above the floor of the flood table, but you really don't need that much room, it's not a DWC system. I just set the pots on the table and go - the roots will grow out as much as they want and don't cause any problem.

Here's a link to a typical packaging of the loose RW ... it's just like a pack of loose wool ... works almost like dirt really:

http://www.hydroshack.com/growing-m...bsorbent-granulate-13-4-cubic-feet-rwxa20.htm

You'll find it at most all hydro stores ... again, price of entry is a little higher, but one of the packs last a loooooong time and a lot of grows.

I really think once you address the humidity issue, you'll find great performance from the RW.

best,
rabbit

Alpha Phase · Jul 15, 2015

The plants that had the mushy roots are recovering after being transplanted in to the smart pots, I think the air circulation and a better flood schedule let them dry out a bit and shoot new roots

BadRabbit said:
Hey Alpha - Looks like you fixed some of the issues on the previous setup already.

Curious: what do you mean "2 weeks eat"? Veg time? Or did you mean 2 weeks left before putting them into flower?

And BTW, what are the plants recovering from? Just the transplant to a new table/grow area?

best,
rabbit

plutosmoke · Jul 15, 2015

I've never had any root rot problems with fnd with rockwool before but I have cross situations where they got overfeed. It first troubled me because I used the same feeding schedule for the plants before and didnt have that problem. But I realized that I was flooding them right after I do a nute mix from my tap during the summer when the tap water was pretty warm. The problem fixed itself when i let the water temp cool with the ambient room temps.
From that experience, I can imagine that if the overfeeding wasn't fixed that root rot can begin to develop.

Alpha Phase · Jul 17, 2015

Right on. I keep the ec levels fairly low, I think I'm at 770ppm or 1.1ec right now. Things have really perked up and grown quite a bit after the transplant into hydroton and smart pots. I think it really had to do with high humidity under the lid which was keeping the rw soaking wet. Hopefully I've fixed the problem for good and if I use rw again, I won't use the tray lid and hope for the best

plutosmoke said:
I've never had any root rot problems with fnd with rockwool before but I have cross situations where they got overfeed. It first troubled me because I used the same feeding schedule for the plants before and didnt have that problem. But I realized that I was flooding them right after I do a nute mix from my tap during the summer when the tap water was pretty warm. The problem fixed itself when i let the water temp cool with the ambient room temps.
From that experience, I can imagine that if the overfeeding wasn't fixed that root rot can begin to develop.

BadRabbit · Jul 22, 2015

Alpha Phase said:
Right on. I keep the ec levels fairly low, I think I'm at 770ppm or 1.1ec right now. Things have really perked up and grown quite a bit after the transplant into hydroton and smart pots. I think it really had to do with high humidity under the lid which was keeping the rw soaking wet. Hopefully I've fixed the problem for good and if I use rw again, I won't use the tray lid and hope for the best

View attachment 325465

View attachment 325466

Looking good Alpha, glad to see they're doing better. Your setup looks really well made, but it looks like you elevate the the table a few feet off the floor? ... just wondering if you always have sufficient head room? I keep the elevation as low as possible for max head room and using various training/tying methods to create a uniform canopy. Perhaps you're growing strains that are less stretchy?

best,
rabbit

BadRabbit · Jul 22, 2015

Madlabscientist said:
Hey Alpha phase i just read a thread where the guy said he was using ebb and flow tables for 20 years in the usa and res temps
didnt matter to him...

Hey newbie: If you have a disagreement over something I've said, why don't you act like a big smart guy and just bring it up so we can talk about it like grown ups? No one says we have to agree on everything, or anything for that matter.

And yes, it's true, it's true .... I have, very successfully used ebb and flow systems for many years, multiple tables at a time, and have never used chillers, and have never had the slightest problem with root rot or any other symptom of heat.

Would you claim otherwise or are you just parroting crap you heard other people say? I know chillers can be important in some DWC systems, but I don't find it to be an issue with ebb and flow systems. I'm sure that could be different if the room temps were extremely high for some reason, but mine are not.

PetFlora · Jul 22, 2015

Growing the same plant (reveg) I have noticed a HUGE improvement in trichs and calyxes since being focused on rez temps.

Keep in mind some growers are not in hot humid climates where ambient room and rez temps can exceed 80-90*s. No way that can not cause problems

So, as always... compared to what?

Madlabscientist · Jul 22, 2015

BadRabbit said:
Hey newbie: If you have a disagreement over something I've said, why don't you act like a big smart guy and just bring it up so we can talk about it like grown ups? No one says we have to agree on everything, or anything for that matter.

And yes, it's true, it's true .... I have, very successfully used ebb and flow systems for many years, multiple tables at a time, and have never used chillers, and have never had the slightest problem with root rot or any other symptom of heat.

Would you claim otherwise or are you just parroting crap you heard other people say? I know chillers can be important in some DWC systems, but I don't find it to be an issue with ebb and flow systems. I'm sure that could be different if the room temps were extremely high for some reason, but mine are not.

here BadRabbit wind yer neck in. where in my above post does it say i disagree...with what you said ?..i was only saying that a guy in the usa has used ebb and flow tables for 20 years and he had no problems with root rot..and i was talking too Alpha phase your posts didnt even cross my mind..so you jumped right in and got on my case and i wasnt even talking too you...or even commenting on anything you said
so there you Go Smart guy you fucked up there..

Alpha Phase · Jul 24, 2015

BadRabbit said:
Looking good Alpha, glad to see they're doing better. Your setup looks really well made, but it looks like you elevate the the table a few feet off the floor? ... just wondering if you always have sufficient head room? I keep the elevation as low as possible for max head room and using various training/tying methods to create a uniform canopy. Perhaps you're growing strains that are less stretchy?

best,
rabbit

Thanks bro. The trays sit just high enough to slide a 27gal tote res underneath, I think 19" or so plus another 4" higher for the stand, so the bottom of the tray sits just under knee high. This is just my veg trays and the plants can grow to about 26" before I have to move them. I've grown all sorts of strains but the main problem is my flower room the plants have to top out at 36" after stretch at the moment because of the max I can raise my lights, so I can veg plenty in the trays for now. I'll be modifying some things on he flower room in the near future so I can grow then a little bigger. I also train the plants as much as I can, either trellis or extensive supercrop sessions and heavy topping in veg for stretchy plants.

These gdp I plan on vegging to 12" and then to flower they'll go. There's 16 of them and it's my first run so I don't want to over veg (even though I still may have lol) but my buddy says it'll only double in size. Most of them are doing great but there is a couple still on the runty side but seem to be pulling out of the funk.

Alpha Phase · Jul 24, 2015

On the water temp subject for ebb and flow, I'd assume as long as the dark period ambient Temps are 70 or less, that should be fine to not have a chiller in flower. I suppose if the room Temps on 24hr veg schedule are really really warm, it might cause a problem. With that said I don't use a chiller but every once in a while I throw a gallon jug of frozen water (with a cap on the jug) in the res to cool it down in my veg room but not in flower. My lights are always on in the veg room so the water gets warm. I've noticed that the plants perk way up after I chill the water, they like the colder water but I wouldn't invest in a chiller unless I was running rdwc. I ALMOST bought a chiller when my roots were funky because I wasn't sure what was going on, but since the problems are fixed I know it wasn't the water Temps causing the issue

BadRabbit · Jul 26, 2015

Alpha Phase said:
Thanks bro. The trays sit just high enough to slide a 27gal tote res underneath, I think 19" or so plus another 4" higher for the stand, so the bottom of the tray sits just under knee high. This is just my veg trays and the plants can grow to about 26" before I have to move them. I've grown all sorts of strains but the main problem is my flower room the plants have to top out at 36" after stretch at the moment because of the max I can raise my lights, so I can veg plenty in the trays for now. I'll be modifying some things on he flower room in the near future so I can grow then a little bigger. I also train the plants as much as I can, either trellis or extensive supercrop sessions and heavy topping in veg for stretchy plants.

These gdp I plan on vegging to 12" and then to flower they'll go. There's 16 of them and it's my first run so I don't want to over veg (even though I still may have lol) but my buddy says it'll only double in size. Most of them are doing great but there is a couple still on the runty side but seem to be pulling out of the funk.

View attachment 326289

Happy grow dude, I'm sure it will deliver awesome results. I like the way you built the frame for the system - easier to maintain and operate that just a table sitting on a rez I bet.

BadRabbit · Jul 26, 2015

Madlabscientist said:
here BadRabbit wind yer neck in. where in my above post does it say i disagree...with what you said ?..i was only saying that a guy in the usa has used ebb and flow tables for 20 years and he had no problems with root rot..and i was talking too Alpha phase your posts didnt even cross my mind..so you jumped right in and got on my case and i wasnt even talking too you...or even commenting on anything you said
so there you Go Smart guy you fucked up there..

touchy touchy ... not sure I really misread that, but OK, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and accept your defamation. Life shall go on.

Alpha Phase · Jul 26, 2015

BadRabbit said:
Happy grow dude, I'm sure it will deliver awesome results. I like the way you built the frame for the system - easier to maintain and operate that just a table sitting on a rez I bet.

Thanks bro. It's definitely easier with the tray stand. I can empty and pull out the res to clean it without moving the plants and it only took a few 2x4s and a few minutes to build. It only raises the tray a few more inches than if it was sitting on the tote, so not much space is wasted. I'll be building a couple more in a couple months since they work great. I used to use saw horses to hold the tray, but saw horses are expensive and this is much better

Alpha Phase · Aug 1, 2015

Fwiw, if anyone is thinking about using smart pots and hydroton, I would recommend it very much. It's working killer. I put the plants into flower about 5 days ago. I'm flooding for 10 minutes every 3 hrs on 12/12. Seems to be the perfect flood schedule for this 4x4 tray.

plutosmoke · Aug 2, 2015

Alpha Phase said:
Fwiw, if anyone is thinking about using smart pots and hydroton, I would recommend it very much. It's working killer. I put the plants into flower about 5 days ago. I'm flooding for 10 minutes every 3 hrs on 12/12. Seems to be the perfect flood schedule for this 4x4 tray.

View attachment 327278

Sorry bro, many of us would tell u that if 3 hours is what it takes to nearly dry out the roots in hydroton, what would happen if a temporary 12 hour or so would happen to the roots

BadRabbit · Aug 2, 2015

plutosmoke said:
Sorry bro, many of us would tell u that if 3 hours is what it takes to nearly dry out the roots in hydroton, what would happen if a temporary 12 hour or so would happen to the roots

I didn't find hydroton dried out that quickly, but it does dry a lot faster that rockwool .... I'd roughly guess you have a 12 hour window with pebbles and 24 with rockwool before you get into territory that would impact the plants much.

I've seen rw stay moist for 3 days, but the plants were starting to suffer a bit by then .. would've been worse with pebbles.

Alpha Phase · Aug 3, 2015

plutosmoke said:
Sorry bro, many of us would tell u that if 3 hours is what it takes to nearly dry out the roots in hydroton, what would happen if a temporary 12 hour or so would happen to the roots

I could see this happening with a mesh bottom pot or net pot, but with smart pots I'm finding 3 hrs is about perfect. The newly rooted clones I just put into hydroton with smart pots I have started out on a flood every 6 hrs on 24/0 lighting. It's really easy to tell when it's drying because the outside of the pot will show a water line and will be wet. I I've been using this method to set my floods. Hope this makes sense. Will update pics tonight with pictures of plants and roots. The roots are exploding out of the sides of the smart pots

Alpha Phase · Aug 3, 2015

Ok, here is the progress. 1 week into flower. Plants seem happy but one thing I'm noticing (I'm new to smart pots) I thought smart pots pruned the roots and I'm not seeing much prune action.

Will this pose a problem? It seems excessive and it seems the pots aren't doing their job?

Anyone have input? Thanks :tiphat:

BadRabbit · Aug 5, 2015

Alpha Phase said:
Ok, here is the progress. 1 week into flower. Plants seem happy but one thing I'm noticing (I'm new to smart pots) I thought smart pots pruned the roots and I'm not seeing much prune action.
View attachment 327516

Will this pose a problem? It seems excessive and it seems the pots aren't doing their job?
View attachment 327517

Anyone have input? Thanks

I don't think it will cause any problem at all .... just showing it's a nice healthy plant.

Flood and drain with smart pots / hydroton?

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