Flood and drain with smart pots / hydroton?

Alpha Phase · Jul 12, 2015

Was trying to use the search feature but it does not work on my phone browser.

Anyway.

Has anyone used smart pots filled with hydroton on a flood tray? I've used hydroton alot but my growing style is a bit different and be been playing around with smart pots recently giving different things a try in flood tables.

Last grow I used rockwool mini cubes in 2 gallon smart pots. It worked ok, but I don't like how rockwool holds so much damn water. The grow came out OK, but I know it could be better.

So I figured mixing the rw cubes and hydroton might be better. So I vegged these in 5" net pots in the 50/50 mix. It's a little better but still not good. It's still holding too much water and 3/16 plants have root issues of brown mushy roots due to the rw being soaked.

So my plan is to take these net pots and plant them in smart pots with hydroton and just flood to the top of the hydroton and avoid watering the net pot with the rw cubes in it.

Do hydroton and smart pots work well?

Also, would a 1 gallon smart pot be plenty for this growing method or would 2 gallon smart pots be better? I don't want to waste hydroton and use too big of a pot.

Any tips, info, anything would be appreciated. Thanks

BadRabbit · Jul 12, 2015

Alpha Phase said:
Was trying to use the search feature but it does not work on my phone browser.

Anyway.

Has anyone used smart pots filled with hydroton on a flood tray? I've used hydroton alot but my growing style is a bit different and be been playing around with smart pots recently giving different things a try in flood tables.

Last grow I used rockwool mini cubes in 2 gallon smart pots. It worked ok, but I don't like how rockwool holds so much damn water. The grow came out OK, but I know it could be better.

So I figured mixing the rw cubes and hydroton might be better. So I vegged these in 5" net pots in the 50/50 mix. It's a little better but still not good. It's still holding too much water and 3/16 plants have root issues of brown mushy roots due to the rw being soaked.

So my plan is to take these net pots and plant them in smart pots with hydroton and just flood to the top of the hydroton and avoid watering the net pot with the rw cubes in it.

Do hydroton and smart pots work well?

Also, would a 1 gallon smart pot be plenty for this growing method or would 2 gallon smart pots be better? I don't want to waste hydroton and use too big of a pot.

Any tips, info, anything would be appreciated. Thanks

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View attachment 324741

Hi Alpha - my 2 cents based on a lot of experience:

Hydroton will work, a mix of hydroton and RW will work and RW alone will work best.

I've run e&f tables for over a decade, and the RW, in a good size net pot, works the best by far. The big RW cubes work OK, but I much prefer to use the net pots filled with mini cubes (crouton size) or loose RW (available at most all hydro stores across the U.S.) ... and it produces superior results to hydroton hands down.

Not sure why you're concerned about RW retaining moisture or how you arrive at the conclusions that it's "too much". RW is the choice of top commercial growers around the world ... it retains moisture because it's supposed to retain moisture and it does it far better than clay pebbles. You plants roots want nutrients, held in the moisture, and air. RW delivers a nearly ideal balance for your plants - it drains to an ideal moisture level almost instantly and will stay that way for many hours between floods ... that's not a bad thing, it's a good thing.

Hydroton dries out more quickly and, if/when you have a pump failure, or other problem .. lo rez levels for example, your plants will be in trouble within 24 hours. With RW, they'll be fine for days.

The only advantage of hydroton is that it is reusable. Spend a few grows, or a few years, recleaning that crap grow after grow and check back with us whether or not your really think that's an advantage. It's a gigantic pain in the ass in reality.

Yes, hydroton works and you can grow good plants with it ... but RW simply performs better and delivers better results.

good luck,
rabbit

Alpha Phase · Jul 12, 2015

Thanks for your reply bad rabbit.

I've used hydroton for the past 10 years or so and yes, cleaning them does suck lol. I've always modified my systems and used 3-5" net pots and just tossed the hydroton at the end of each grow since it's not very much and impossible to break the roots out of it, usually the net pots have to be thrown out as well.

I've only 2 full runs using rockwool, the mini cube type, and it seems I've had nothing but problems. Maybe you can help me. At first I liked the water retention because newly rooted clones would grow great roots quickly. But it seems after a couple of weeks, in my suspended net pot veg trays, some of the clones roots start to rot from too much water retention.

I'm using 5" net pots with 50/50 hydroton and croutons. I'm flooding about an inch up the pot every 6 hours for 15 minutes. Is this the problem? How often should these be flooded and how far up the net pots or smart pots? I only have 15 minutes timers, is this the problem, flooding too long? I'm just at my wits end using rw because it seems there's always too much water and I can't seem to figure out a routine that works with rw. My roots are suspended over the tables, so when I start clones, the roots that grow out of the net pots need to be watered at least every 6 hrs, actually every 3 hrs , or they dry out, but I can't seem to do this because the rw wicks up too much water and the roots start dieing.

You seem to know a lot about the stuff, can you please walk me through this? I have a bag of rw croutons and I'd like to use them because they were expensive, but I don't want to keep having crappy grows and losing veg plants here and there

Alpha Phase · Jul 13, 2015

I think I figured out the rw issues I was having. Flood times. With hydroton, I use 15 minute timers, u didn't know this was too long for rw. I just bought a minute timer to flood for a couple minutes instead. Pretty sure this is the culprit for my overwatering issues.

BadRabbit · Jul 13, 2015

Alpha Phase said:
I think I figured out the rw issues I was having. Flood times. With hydroton, I use 15 minute timers, u didn't know this was too long for rw. I just bought a minute timer to flood for a couple minutes instead. Pretty sure this is the culprit for my overwatering issues.

Hi Alpha:

Sorry to say it, but i don't think the flood time would affect it much if at all. There shouldn't really be any difference between hydroton or RW on this ... both equalize quickly.

I've grown with a mix of hydroton and RW mini cubes too, and I thought it worked fine, with 10 to 15 minute floods. I also grow with RW and 10 or 15 min floods and it works fine (in net pots).

Yeh, the croutons are a bit pricey .... I find the loose RW to work well and be a lot less per use than the mini cubes. The only problem is that I usually see it sold in large slabs, so the initial buy in is steep, but they last for many, many grows and are really cheap in the long run.

I spent more time looking at your ebb and flow table ... interesting set up. Are you suspending those pots so the sit above the floor of the table ... sort of like they would in a DWC system?

And do the tables drain completely?

I'm wondering if it could be the lack of air flow because of that cover you use with the pots ... that could lock too much moisture in there and enable the mold/rot. And I could see how maybe pebbles would be less inclined because they do dry more quickly .... not normally an advantage, but maybe it becomes one here.

I've never had root rot on a an ebb and flow table growing with any hydro media, but I've never set it up like that either.

If I read it right, I'd try a grow with out that cover/pot holder set up and just let the net pots sit on the table. It's OK if the roots grow right out, they'll be fine and are usually nicely shaded because the plants are grown up by that time.

best,
rabbit

hvac guy · Jul 14, 2015

Hydroton is easy to clean. Use a top loading washing machine and fill with water and Sensizym or Hydrogen Peroxide. Soak the Hydroton for 24 hours and then wash, all the roots and debris will be removed during the rinse and spin cycle. I've washed over 1000 lbs of Hydroton in 3 days with 4 top loader washing machines. Even the small particles of Hydrton will be removed, use gentle cycle and reduce the agitation cycle.

hvac guy · Jul 14, 2015

Aeropots work well with Hydroton in Flood/Drain tables.

Alpha Phase · Jul 14, 2015

Hmm, it could be the tray lid holding high humidity, I've never thought about that. The net pots are suspended about 3" above the bottom of the trays. I usually use hydroton in the net pots and flood an inch or so up the pots every 2 or 3 hr for 15 minutes. It took a while to dial in the flood times but after its worked like a charm, the suspended pots give the roots so much space to grow out. The tables fully drain as well.

Can you send a link or picture of the loose rw? That sounds interesting, I think if I try rw again I'll go with that.

I've since transplanted the plants into 1 gallon smart pots with the net pots sitting on hydroton and back filled with hydroton around the net pots

The flood level touches the bottom of the net pots and I've set the timer to flood every 3 hrs for 3 minutes as it takes 2 minutes to reach the over flow

Do you think this will work well?

BadRabbit said:
Hi Alpha:

Sorry to say it, but i don't think the flood time would affect it much if at all. There shouldn't really be any difference between hydroton or RW on this ... both equalize quickly.

I've grown with a mix of hydroton and RW mini cubes too, and I thought it worked fine, with 10 to 15 minute floods. I also grow with RW and 10 or 15 min floods and it works fine (in net pots).

Yeh, the croutons are a bit pricey .... I find the loose RW to work well and be a lot less per use than the mini cubes. The only problem is that I usually see it sold in large slabs, so the initial buy in is steep, but they last for many, many grows and are really cheap in the long run.

I spent more time looking at your ebb and flow table ... interesting set up. Are you suspending those pots so the sit above the floor of the table ... sort of like they would in a DWC system?

And do the tables drain completely?

I'm wondering if it could be the lack of air flow because of that cover you use with the pots ... that could lock too much moisture in there and enable the mold/rot. And I could see how maybe pebbles would be less inclined because they do dry more quickly .... not normally an advantage, but maybe it becomes one here.

I've never had root rot on a an ebb and flow table growing with any hydro media, but I've never set it up like that either.

If I read it right, I'd try a grow with out that cover/pot holder set up and just let the net pots sit on the table. It's OK if the roots grow right out, they'll be fine and are usually nicely shaded because the plants are grown up by that time.

best,
rabbit

Alpha Phase · Jul 14, 2015

That's one hell of an idea hvac guy! I think I'm going to try and find a cheap washer by the years end, awesome tip

Alpha Phase · Jul 14, 2015

Here's how it's set up now, hoping it works out OK, some plants are definitely stunted.. There's about 2 weeks eat before they need to go into flower, I'm hoping that's long enough to recover

Madlabscientist · Jul 14, 2015

hi there Alpha Phase i really like your ebb & flood tables..can i ask what ph you use with rockwool cubes ?..Also does rockwool need to be cleaned before use ?

Alpha Phase · Jul 15, 2015

Thanks madlab! The system works great once it's dialed it, much better than the regular set ups, but it can be a pain in the ass sometimes lol.

I have little experience with rockwool, but what I do to prepare it is I soak it in 500ppm 5.5ph nute water and this is used for newly rooted clones. I soak them for about an hour or so, but I've only used the rw mini cubes and I'm not sure if it works the same for all rw

plutosmoke · Jul 15, 2015

Hi Alpha Phase. 15 minutes flooding shouldn't be an issue, but if the water have low dissolved oxygen, it can be. Are you keeping your water temps under control?

plutosmoke · Jul 15, 2015

Alpha Phase said:
Here's how it's set up now, hoping it works out OK, some plants are definitely stunted.. There's about 2 weeks eat before they need to go into flower, I'm hoping that's long enough to recover

View attachment 325268

Those babies are looking great!

PetFlora · Jul 15, 2015

I found hydroton to be a PITA and replaced it with a clean reusable polished river rocks (Dollar store)

I use either net pots or Air Pots as they are fast draining, which IMO is safer and healthier than roots soaking. This also allows me to feed every hour

drop my my DIY Mini-Me F & D for ideas and current pics with ~ 2 weeks to go

BadRabbit · Jul 15, 2015

hvac guy said:
Hydroton is easy to clean. Use a top loading washing machine and fill with water and Sensizym or Hydrogen Peroxide. Soak the Hydroton for 24 hours and then wash, all the roots and debris will be removed during the rinse and spin cycle. I've washed over 1000 lbs of Hydroton in 3 days with 4 top loader washing machines. Even the small particles of Hydrton will be removed, use gentle cycle and reduce the agitation cycle.

gotta admit .... never thought of that.

Must sound like a train wreck on the spin cycle.

Does it beat up the washer?

BadRabbit · Jul 15, 2015

Alpha Phase said:
Hmm, it could be the tray lid holding high humidity, I've never thought about that. The net pots are suspended about 3" above the bottom of the trays. I usually use hydroton in the net pots and flood an inch or so up the pots every 2 or 3 hr for 15 minutes. It took a while to dial in the flood times but after its worked like a charm, the suspended pots give the roots so much space to grow out. The tables fully drain as well.

Can you send a link or picture of the loose rw? That sounds interesting, I think if I try rw again I'll go with that.

I've since transplanted the plants into 1 gallon smart pots with the net pots sitting on hydroton and back filled with hydroton around the net pots

The flood level touches the bottom of the net pots and I've set the timer to flood every 3 hrs for 3 minutes as it takes 2 minutes to reach the over flow

Do you think this will work well?

I definitely think the lack of air circulation with the closed lid will be a factor. I'm betting that's your RW issue right there.

I think, if I read your method right, of flooding only to the bottom of the hydroton pots is not enough. Hydroton does not "wick up" very well at all and you'll really limit the effective root space that way. Definitely need to flood up to or near the top of the pot.

RW wicks up extremely well ... you could just flood the bottom inch or so and it should wick up through the entire pot just fine.

In either case though, flooding up to or near the top of the grow media is much preferred and will provide better results with fewer complications.

It's kinda cool that your set up keeps the pots above the floor of the flood table, but you really don't need that much room, it's not a DWC system. I just set the pots on the table and go - the roots will grow out as much as they want and don't cause any problem.

Here's a link to a typical packaging of the loose RW ... it's just like a pack of loose wool ... works almost like dirt really:

http://www.hydroshack.com/growing-m...bsorbent-granulate-13-4-cubic-feet-rwxa20.htm

You'll find it at most all hydro stores ... again, price of entry is a little higher, but one of the packs last a loooooong time and a lot of grows.

I really think once you address the humidity issue, you'll find great performance from the RW.

best,
rabbit

Madlabscientist · Jul 15, 2015

hey guys i was looking at a 3x3 flood and drain table it comes with 16x 8ins pots if i was gonna use clay pebbles.could i flood for 10min every 3 hours or is this too much for new seedlings ?..

BadRabbit · Jul 15, 2015

Alpha Phase said:
Here's how it's set up now, hoping it works out OK, some plants are definitely stunted.. There's about 2 weeks eat before they need to go into flower, I'm hoping that's long enough to recover

View attachment 325268

Hey Alpha - Looks like you fixed some of the issues on the previous setup already.

Curious: what do you mean "2 weeks eat"? Veg time? Or did you mean 2 weeks left before putting them into flower?

And BTW, what are the plants recovering from? Just the transplant to a new table/grow area?

best,
rabbit

Alpha Phase · Jul 15, 2015

plutosmoke said:
Hi Alpha Phase. 15 minutes flooding shouldn't be an issue, but if the water have low dissolved oxygen, it can be. Are you keeping your water temps under control?

I try to keep the water Temps under 70 degrees, but I don't have a chiller so it's tough. I throw a frozen gallon water jug in the res once or twice a day if I remember and it usually stays between 65 and 75 degrees. I've always worried about water Temps in my flood tables but recently a fellow grow friend said water Temps don't matter much with flood trays, but I'm not sure how accurate that is

Flood and drain with smart pots / hydroton?

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