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[q] "Lithotrophs are a diverse group of organisms using inorganic substrate (usually of mineral origin) to obtain reducing equivalents for use in biosynthesis.
The term "lithotroph" was created from the Greek terms 'lithos' (rock) and 'troph' (consumer), meaning "eaters of rock"." [/q]
The term "lithotroph" was created from the Greek terms 'lithos' (rock) and 'troph' (consumer), meaning "eaters of rock"." [/q]
MJ; I hope you are not referring to me as a nay sayer. My mind is wide open. I've only asked for a source of data to substantiate the claims being made.
Please correct me if I am wrong but have we not gone from a simple do it yourself pH sap test to something complex, where samples are sent to a lab? That's fine but my questions concerning the lab protocal have gone nowhere, leading me to believe that there is no appropriate protocal (beyond standard tissue analysis?). My questions were not responded to.
We have had statements about white light being emitted from leaves. When I made a suggestion and queried whether this might be founded in chlorophyll fluorescence analysis, my question was not responded to. Instead it was lost in obscurity as discussion went in another direction; nutrient assimilation.
I prefer a discussion which proceeds point by point, rather than by an apparent bean game which deflects attention somewhere else when a question cannot be answered.
If questioning claims being made, brands me as a naysayer then that is what I am.
To address your questions concerning the excretions involved in organic matter being made available to the soil solution; bacteria, archaea, fungi & roots all excrete certain similar/identical forms of organic acids which alter the (power of) hydrogen balance (pH) in the rhyzosphere which exchange for nutrients (CEC) sequestered in materials (organic matter, clay, rock) releasing the nutrients in ionic (available) form into the soil solution to be consumed/uptaken by microbes and/or roots. [that's my best guess]
Endomycorrhizal fungi function in similar fashion but where they interface in the root/plant cell they receive forms of carbon from the plant in exchange for nutrients garnered from the fungal hyphae's outreaching network.
[I have written about these subjects in posts on various forums, including this one and on my webpage for a number of years]
Please correct me if I am wrong but have we not gone from a simple do it yourself pH sap test to something complex, where samples are sent to a lab? That's fine but my questions concerning the lab protocal have gone nowhere, leading me to believe that there is no appropriate protocal (beyond standard tissue analysis?). My questions were not responded to.
We have had statements about white light being emitted from leaves. When I made a suggestion and queried whether this might be founded in chlorophyll fluorescence analysis, my question was not responded to. Instead it was lost in obscurity as discussion went in another direction; nutrient assimilation.
I prefer a discussion which proceeds point by point, rather than by an apparent bean game which deflects attention somewhere else when a question cannot be answered.
If questioning claims being made, brands me as a naysayer then that is what I am.
To address your questions concerning the excretions involved in organic matter being made available to the soil solution; bacteria, archaea, fungi & roots all excrete certain similar/identical forms of organic acids which alter the (power of) hydrogen balance (pH) in the rhyzosphere which exchange for nutrients (CEC) sequestered in materials (organic matter, clay, rock) releasing the nutrients in ionic (available) form into the soil solution to be consumed/uptaken by microbes and/or roots. [that's my best guess]
Endomycorrhizal fungi function in similar fashion but where they interface in the root/plant cell they receive forms of carbon from the plant in exchange for nutrients garnered from the fungal hyphae's outreaching network.
[I have written about these subjects in posts on various forums, including this one and on my webpage for a number of years]
Last edited:
C
c-ray
mo' food for tha dome circa 2034
http://quantumagriculture.com/quantum-agriculture-biodynamics-and-beyond
http://quantumagriculture.com/quantum-agriculture-biodynamics-and-beyond
StrongBeef
Member
If anybody is interested:
Smart Technology Seminar in Santa Rosa ca on Nov 7&8th. John Kempf will be there and plant sap analysis is the subject. Here is a list of the events for the two days. I already paid for my ticket.
Day 1: 8:00 AM-4:30 PM
7:30 -8:30 Light brunch items available with beverages
8:30-8:45 Welcome: Michelle D. Gregg, CHL Program Director
8:45-10:30 Introduction, Sjoerd Smits, Owner HortiNova / NovaCropControl (independent consultancy and
laboratory)
History of plant sap analysis 2003-2014 (11 years of data)
Why does our plant sap analysis always include these specific 21-25 parameters?
Differences between plant sap analysis and conventional tissue test (dry matter), Benefits of a plant sap
analysis.
10:30 Break (15 minutes)
10:45- 11:30 Sap Analysis in the US and Canada: Jason Hobson of Advancing Eco Agriculture (30 minutes)
11:30- 1:00 Sjoerd Smits How proper sampling and labelling (water and leaves) should be done, Do’s and
don’ts.
Why do we test young full grown leaf and the old leaves
Mobility of nutrients in the plant
1:00 Break for lunch (45 minutes)
1:45 Start afternoon session
1:45- 2:15 Grower presentation: Jacob Gwilliam of Tulare Ag Products: Sap Analysis in Arid Central CA (30
minutes)
2:15 PM- 4:30 Sjoerd Smits
Which factors influence the uptake of the minerals in the plant
Cation and anion interaction
o Antagonistic and synergistic interactions between the minerals
o Functions per element, cations: Ca, Mg, K, Na and NH4
o Functions per element, anions: NO3, P, Cl, S
o Functions per trace element: Fe, Mn, Zn, B, Cu and Mo
How to read a plant sap analysis report
Save fertilizer inputs: how Netherlands growers save 10-25% input K and P
4:30 PM Adjourn
5:00- 9:00 PM Networking and dinner: dinner orders collected at 5:30
o 5:00 Networking and nutrient troubleshooting in common room
o 7:00 Dinner provided in common room, networking continues into evening
Day 2: 8:00 AM- 4:00 PM
7:30 -8:30 Light brunch items available with beverages
8:00 Introduction, Michelle D. Gregg, Program Director, CHL
8:00-10:00 AM: Sjoerd Smits: HortiNova
Research update HortiNova / NovaCropControl 2008-2013, deficiency and toxicity trials in tomato, bell
pepper and cucumber.
Trial outcome: differing K/Ca ratios and EC on growth (vegetative and generative stages)
Power Growers Seminar November 7-8, 2014 The Biltmore Hotel, Santa Clara, CA
Interactions between water analysis and plant analysis, complementary or contradictory
10:00 AM Break (15 minutes)
10:15-10:45: Nic Ellis, PhD How Sap Analysis Is Empowering Vegetable Producers: East US (30 minutes)
10:45AM-1:00 PM Sjoerd Smits, HortiNova
Plant health effects regarding the nutrient status of the plant.
Nitrate conversion to protein Nitrogen regarding pest and disease management.
Sharing experiences with less susceptibility for:
o production of bell pepper and tomato
o Insects: aphids, trips, spider mite
o Fungal disease: mildew, botrytis, phytophthora,
o Fruit quality problems: BER, discoloured fruit, fruit falling, yellow crown, crown burning
1:00 Break for lunch (45 min)
1:45 Start afternoon sessions
1:45-2:30 Advancing Eco Agriculture (AEA): John Kempf, CEO: Imperatives for the future of food (45 min)
2:30-4:30 Sjoerd Smits, Horti Nova
How can we prevent a crop from suffering from yellowing plant tops. Iron deficiency or P toxicity?
Online database: How to monitor the nutrient levels in your crop by working with Bemestingonline.nl.
4:00 PM Questions / discussion
4:30 PM Adjourn
Video of the full 2-day seminar will be shipped to you following the seminar, on USB thumb drive, our gift to you.
If you require cd or other method of transmission, please connect with us to place a special order
Additional copies of this seminar are available for purchase ($275) on our website, by phone, or by emailing
info@crophealthlabs.com
o How to scout for visual deficiencies per element in tomato, bell pepper and cucumber. How to
distinguish between several mineral deficiencies.
o How to monitor the progress of the nutrient status of your crop and water analysis.
Michelle D. Gregg, Program Director, CHL michelle@crophealthlabs.com
John Kempf, Chief Executive Officer, AEA john@advancingecoag.com
NovaCropControl, and Horti Nova: www.novacropcontrol.nl/en
Sjoerd Smits, Owner, NCC and HN sjoerd.smits@hortinova.nl
Maikel van de Ven, lead technician m.vandeven@novacropcontrol.nl
Crop Health Laboratories: www.crophealthlabs.com 1-800- 495-7938
Brittany Brown, CHL Customer Care Coordinator brittanybrown.crophealthlabs@gmail.com
Shirley McAuley, CHL Logistics Coordinator, shirley@crophealthlabs.com 419-565-0055
Nic Ellis, Consulting Specialist, Keystone Bio Ag nhellis2008@gmail.com 717-354-2115
And Norden Ag Consulting
Advancing Eco Agriculture (AEA): www.advancingecoagriculture.com 1-800-495-6603
Jason Hobson, VP Special Projects, AEA jhobson@advancingecoag.com
Power Growers Seminar November 7-8, 2014 The Biltmore Hotel, Santa Clara, CA
Gary Reding, Plant and Soil Specialist AEA greding@advancingecoag.com
Nathan Harman, Plant and Soil Specialist, AEA nharman@advancingecoag.com
Aaron Jimenez, Chief of Staff, AEA ajimenez@advancingecoag.com
Jenny Garley, Research Specialist West Coast, AEA jgarley@advancingecoag.com
Bill Cisneros, Plant and Soil Specialist, AEA bill.cisneros.pb@gmail.com
Smart Technology Seminar in Santa Rosa ca on Nov 7&8th. John Kempf will be there and plant sap analysis is the subject. Here is a list of the events for the two days. I already paid for my ticket.
Day 1: 8:00 AM-4:30 PM
7:30 -8:30 Light brunch items available with beverages
8:30-8:45 Welcome: Michelle D. Gregg, CHL Program Director
8:45-10:30 Introduction, Sjoerd Smits, Owner HortiNova / NovaCropControl (independent consultancy and
laboratory)
History of plant sap analysis 2003-2014 (11 years of data)
Why does our plant sap analysis always include these specific 21-25 parameters?
Differences between plant sap analysis and conventional tissue test (dry matter), Benefits of a plant sap
analysis.
10:30 Break (15 minutes)
10:45- 11:30 Sap Analysis in the US and Canada: Jason Hobson of Advancing Eco Agriculture (30 minutes)
11:30- 1:00 Sjoerd Smits How proper sampling and labelling (water and leaves) should be done, Do’s and
don’ts.
Why do we test young full grown leaf and the old leaves
Mobility of nutrients in the plant
1:00 Break for lunch (45 minutes)
1:45 Start afternoon session
1:45- 2:15 Grower presentation: Jacob Gwilliam of Tulare Ag Products: Sap Analysis in Arid Central CA (30
minutes)
2:15 PM- 4:30 Sjoerd Smits
Which factors influence the uptake of the minerals in the plant
Cation and anion interaction
o Antagonistic and synergistic interactions between the minerals
o Functions per element, cations: Ca, Mg, K, Na and NH4
o Functions per element, anions: NO3, P, Cl, S
o Functions per trace element: Fe, Mn, Zn, B, Cu and Mo
How to read a plant sap analysis report
Save fertilizer inputs: how Netherlands growers save 10-25% input K and P
4:30 PM Adjourn
5:00- 9:00 PM Networking and dinner: dinner orders collected at 5:30
o 5:00 Networking and nutrient troubleshooting in common room
o 7:00 Dinner provided in common room, networking continues into evening
Day 2: 8:00 AM- 4:00 PM
7:30 -8:30 Light brunch items available with beverages
8:00 Introduction, Michelle D. Gregg, Program Director, CHL
8:00-10:00 AM: Sjoerd Smits: HortiNova
Research update HortiNova / NovaCropControl 2008-2013, deficiency and toxicity trials in tomato, bell
pepper and cucumber.
Trial outcome: differing K/Ca ratios and EC on growth (vegetative and generative stages)
Power Growers Seminar November 7-8, 2014 The Biltmore Hotel, Santa Clara, CA
Interactions between water analysis and plant analysis, complementary or contradictory
10:00 AM Break (15 minutes)
10:15-10:45: Nic Ellis, PhD How Sap Analysis Is Empowering Vegetable Producers: East US (30 minutes)
10:45AM-1:00 PM Sjoerd Smits, HortiNova
Plant health effects regarding the nutrient status of the plant.
Nitrate conversion to protein Nitrogen regarding pest and disease management.
Sharing experiences with less susceptibility for:
o production of bell pepper and tomato
o Insects: aphids, trips, spider mite
o Fungal disease: mildew, botrytis, phytophthora,
o Fruit quality problems: BER, discoloured fruit, fruit falling, yellow crown, crown burning
1:00 Break for lunch (45 min)
1:45 Start afternoon sessions
1:45-2:30 Advancing Eco Agriculture (AEA): John Kempf, CEO: Imperatives for the future of food (45 min)
2:30-4:30 Sjoerd Smits, Horti Nova
How can we prevent a crop from suffering from yellowing plant tops. Iron deficiency or P toxicity?
Online database: How to monitor the nutrient levels in your crop by working with Bemestingonline.nl.
4:00 PM Questions / discussion
4:30 PM Adjourn
Video of the full 2-day seminar will be shipped to you following the seminar, on USB thumb drive, our gift to you.
If you require cd or other method of transmission, please connect with us to place a special order
Additional copies of this seminar are available for purchase ($275) on our website, by phone, or by emailing
info@crophealthlabs.com
o How to scout for visual deficiencies per element in tomato, bell pepper and cucumber. How to
distinguish between several mineral deficiencies.
o How to monitor the progress of the nutrient status of your crop and water analysis.
Michelle D. Gregg, Program Director, CHL michelle@crophealthlabs.com
John Kempf, Chief Executive Officer, AEA john@advancingecoag.com
NovaCropControl, and Horti Nova: www.novacropcontrol.nl/en
Sjoerd Smits, Owner, NCC and HN sjoerd.smits@hortinova.nl
Maikel van de Ven, lead technician m.vandeven@novacropcontrol.nl
Crop Health Laboratories: www.crophealthlabs.com 1-800- 495-7938
Brittany Brown, CHL Customer Care Coordinator brittanybrown.crophealthlabs@gmail.com
Shirley McAuley, CHL Logistics Coordinator, shirley@crophealthlabs.com 419-565-0055
Nic Ellis, Consulting Specialist, Keystone Bio Ag nhellis2008@gmail.com 717-354-2115
And Norden Ag Consulting
Advancing Eco Agriculture (AEA): www.advancingecoagriculture.com 1-800-495-6603
Jason Hobson, VP Special Projects, AEA jhobson@advancingecoag.com
Power Growers Seminar November 7-8, 2014 The Biltmore Hotel, Santa Clara, CA
Gary Reding, Plant and Soil Specialist AEA greding@advancingecoag.com
Nathan Harman, Plant and Soil Specialist, AEA nharman@advancingecoag.com
Aaron Jimenez, Chief of Staff, AEA ajimenez@advancingecoag.com
Jenny Garley, Research Specialist West Coast, AEA jgarley@advancingecoag.com
Bill Cisneros, Plant and Soil Specialist, AEA bill.cisneros.pb@gmail.com
StrongBeef
Member
only 7 seats left if interested.
StrongBeef
Member
MM - The seminar and the people that are putting it on have set the standards for sap ph. Check out their web site and after this weekend I will have lots of literature to post up if others are interested. Just wanted to point some folks in the direction of actual plant sap procedures and protocols.
StrongBeef
Member
Can't edit for some reason, but here is the website and company name.
http://www.crophealthlabs.com/
http://www.crophealthlabs.com/
I've already viewed this. I cannot find the lab prococol
e.g.
Mehlich 1, 2 or 3
Morgan or Modified Morgan
SPE
GC-MS
UPLC-MS
HPLC-MS
ESI-MS
ICP
etc.
Most legitimate labs will outline the method(s) used for extraction and analysis. Also is that the lab which does the analysis or do they send it to:
NovaCropControl
Magazijnweg
17-*‐02
5071
NW
Udenhout Netherlands?
The sampling method seems counter intuitive to me, as I deal with live samples daily and see how quickly fungi and bacteria can grow.
They ask for the leaves to be placed in sealed a plastic bag. They even suggest that several leaves can be placed in the same bag. Even overnight, it is a given that mold (fungi) will grow. If the sample is subsequently shipped to Netherlands, this will exacerbate the potential for mold.
The lab I use, when accepting leaf samples, asks for them to be placed into paper bags and shipped overnight. Analysis is done immediately, thus my previous question as to what is the difference? I'm obvoiusly missing something.
You got a great point MM. The secrecy is wearing fucking thin on me to...combine that with I cannt ship mj leaves and I don't really care about the technology myself.
I assume the actual test method the same as they use for tissue analysis. Just different sampling. The theory being what is in the sap today is in the tissue a week from now. So you get a jump on how to react.
But I am with you now. Until they tell me what it is and match nova crops 11euros per test...fuck it. I can measure for myself with cardy meters the two main cations, ca and k. Get those right and I figure they are the 20% that matters.
Develop enough organic matter...enough sequestered I actual microbes...and even that don't matter in the soil. Ask aea what the numbers on penn valley potting soil are...it will only confuse you, it isn't soil blah blah.
So all I need is enough of everything sequestered in microbes and supported with tiny amounts of foliar...that is my current opinion.
And tainio, bob pike and ncc were all ahead of this new company on sap ph. Saying anything else is bullshit
I assume the actual test method the same as they use for tissue analysis. Just different sampling. The theory being what is in the sap today is in the tissue a week from now. So you get a jump on how to react.
But I am with you now. Until they tell me what it is and match nova crops 11euros per test...fuck it. I can measure for myself with cardy meters the two main cations, ca and k. Get those right and I figure they are the 20% that matters.
Develop enough organic matter...enough sequestered I actual microbes...and even that don't matter in the soil. Ask aea what the numbers on penn valley potting soil are...it will only confuse you, it isn't soil blah blah.
So all I need is enough of everything sequestered in microbes and supported with tiny amounts of foliar...that is my current opinion.
And tainio, bob pike and ncc were all ahead of this new company on sap ph. Saying anything else is bullshit
StrongBeef
Member
I have more information compiled, I just need to sort and comprehend everything given at this conference.
First question, what method do they use.
Well, I was a little mixed up. This is plant sap analysis which is different that plant tissue samples. The lab you talked about with the dry samples is a tissue sample lab right? Unfortunately, this lab considers the method of sap extraction proprietary. So I don't think I can fully answer this question.
Second question about sending in zip locks and mold contaminants:
Since these samples are for sap extraction, you can't have the leaves dry, right? So, they must be shipped whole with just the edge of the petiole left on. This ensures sap from inside the plant leaf will remain uninfected. There are many variables when sampling leaves, such as foliar residue or other environmental factors. Which side of the plant gets sun, new leaves and old leaves. They have a system on how to pull your samples to ensure the best testing methods. However, when I asked at the conference about mold or mildew factoring in on effecting the sample and I was told it has very little variance from a fresh sample.
Hope this helps, and I will be going through all the information with a fine tooth comb, so any other questions I will try to answer better when I fully review all the information from the conference.
I was half expecting to see you at the conference MM. You want me to pm you on future events? The acres USA is the next conference, very well worth the money.
First question, what method do they use.
Well, I was a little mixed up. This is plant sap analysis which is different that plant tissue samples. The lab you talked about with the dry samples is a tissue sample lab right? Unfortunately, this lab considers the method of sap extraction proprietary. So I don't think I can fully answer this question.
Second question about sending in zip locks and mold contaminants:
Since these samples are for sap extraction, you can't have the leaves dry, right? So, they must be shipped whole with just the edge of the petiole left on. This ensures sap from inside the plant leaf will remain uninfected. There are many variables when sampling leaves, such as foliar residue or other environmental factors. Which side of the plant gets sun, new leaves and old leaves. They have a system on how to pull your samples to ensure the best testing methods. However, when I asked at the conference about mold or mildew factoring in on effecting the sample and I was told it has very little variance from a fresh sample.
Hope this helps, and I will be going through all the information with a fine tooth comb, so any other questions I will try to answer better when I fully review all the information from the conference.
I was half expecting to see you at the conference MM. You want me to pm you on future events? The acres USA is the next conference, very well worth the money.
My lab requests the leaves fresh but packed in paper bags to minimize mold. IMO anyone who says mold won't be an issue putting a fresh leaf in a sealed plastic bag, has not spent much time looking down a microscope tube.
I can't afford to travel to California, especially for something proprietory. I'll look forward to your report.
I can't afford to travel to California, especially for something proprietory. I'll look forward to your report.
StrongBeef
Member
MM, maybe I am missing how that could be a problem. What is propriety is the way they remove the sap from the sample. I know it involves heat, and I know they keep the temps below a certain temp, but that was all that was discussed.
Maybe you could explain how you think mold on the leaves would effect the sample. If the sap inside the leaves are what is being pulled, why does the mold on the outside of the leaf matter? Not starting a fight or doubting you. If I have a clearer understanding of what to look for when making my notes I may actually be able to answer this question. Thanks MM.
If not, when my dvd of the conference shows up I will try my best to answer these questions. I will even e-mail the people that run the lab if needed. I don't like mysteries.
Maybe you could explain how you think mold on the leaves would effect the sample. If the sap inside the leaves are what is being pulled, why does the mold on the outside of the leaf matter? Not starting a fight or doubting you. If I have a clearer understanding of what to look for when making my notes I may actually be able to answer this question. Thanks MM.
If not, when my dvd of the conference shows up I will try my best to answer these questions. I will even e-mail the people that run the lab if needed. I don't like mysteries.
My thoughts exactly.
Im about to grab the required meters to do the testing myself..
some meters I have been eyeing...
http://www.specmeters.com/nutrient-management/nutrient-meters/calcium/laqua-twin-calcium-meter/
http://www.specmeters.com/nutrient-management/nutrient-meters/potassium/
http://www.specmeters.com/nutrient-management/nutrient-meters/nitrate/
http://www.specmeters.com/nutrient-management/chlorophyll-meters/
StrongBeef
Member
I would stay clear of the Ca meter. The K meter is a great idea, however the Ca meter has it's problems.
StrongBeef
Member
When I went to the plant sap analysis conference, the guy that was in charge of the lab was giving a lecture on what meters to use and what not to use. The best and most accurate reader was the K reader, and was highly recommended. However, the Ca meter they used for years before tissue and sap analysis. Once they were able to test more accurately, they noticed the Ca meter was effected by other cations and gave inaccurate results.
