does health of seed crops affect offspring

[JointOperation]

ok.. im seeing lots of so called breeders.. who cant even keep there plants green.. nevermind healthy.. or disease free..

does this have an impact on the seeds coming from the crops?

say the mom and dad are under lots of stress and unhealthy.. does this affect the seeds in anyways what so ever..

I was reading and then heard from a few people that.. when breeding with hermi lines.. the health of the plant and keeping it healthy will help with the offspring not becoming so hermi prone..?

now I know that things get passed on.. but do we know if this adds to anything or can mutate something as its being passed from parents to offspring?

any breeders know this?

I just wonder because.. I was told this is why a lot of breeders who use 3rd parties to make there seed.. have lots more hermis then they think they will . because the people making the seed aren't producing it for sale.. so they could care less how it looks..

then I also heard.. that this is why we keep finding a bunch of weird phenotypes in seeds that shouldn't be there..

mainly because the room being seeded is under shady conditions.. and another plant in the room hermies.. and boom. now your seed packs of THIS.. really have a few s1s and or a few feminized beans from a plant next to it.. especially when making lots of crosses with 1 male...

if anyone can chime in.. it would be greatly appreciated..

 

[harry74]

My pollen chucker opinión:

No.
May be you don´t produce as much seed as having everything dialled in. Unless it´s some kind of virus, somenthing genetical I don´t know.
I was thinking that may be could affect the shelf life of seeds?
Let´s say you do a seed run but plants are somehow neglected.
¿ Could this affect the germination %?

Just an hypotesis.



This is Somango X BB seeded and infected by spidermite.
The seeds do great, the spidermite didn´t cause any harm to the seeds.
In fact I had 5 different crosses but all the Spidermites were focused in the Somango.

 

[aridbud]

I just wonder because.. I was told this is why a lot of breeders who use 3rd parties to make there seed.. have lots more hermis then they think they will . because the people making the seed aren't producing it for sale.. so they could care less how it looks..

then I also heard.. that this is why we keep finding a bunch of weird phenotypes in seeds that shouldn't be there..


We don't keep any weird phenotypes...that makes no sense.

If you have less than optimum conditions growing cannabis,by seeding them....it'll take much longer to finish due to light, environment.

And breeding with hermy traits...tricky.

With good breeding you take everything into consideration- no short cuts. And a good breeder should test strains themselves before sending test seeds to others to make sure traits are stable. Matter of opinion....

 

[MJPassion]

I don't consider myself a "breeder" but by definition I am simply because I am instrumental in bringing unrelated genetics to my room & crossing them.
I prefer the label of independent chucker.

I'll start by asking...
Do alcoholic mothers produce normal children?
The answer is both yes & no for obvious reasons that both normal & abnormal development can occur.

From what I've read, in the past, genetic code is reset and disease free when it is split then recombined. Therefore, nothing bad could happen. However, reality seems to never match theory.

On that note, I would imagine that genetic defects could be introduced from a non ideal environment.

Also, the scenario where you mention breeders having nanners pop out and pollenate the room...
It happens all the time & is one reason ut is wise to research your seed purchases.

For instance...
I was following a pair of breeders for a couple years until I was told why one particular individual was banned from this breeders go to forum. This individual was attempting to blow the whistle about some particularly bad practices in the breeders grows... namely that the breeder had some plants throw nanners & add to the seed crop being made. Instead of trashing all the seed, the lines were packaged and sold as if nothing happened. Don't mean to trash anybody but this company was Kingdom Organic Seeds, previous to Rev n Greenman parting & going their own ways. Because of this single incident, I feel that neither of these guys deserves my $$$.

Now the decision is yours to make on who you support.
Breeders that engage in shady practices don't deserve even the slightest amout of the spot light.

I hope this post helps with your questions JO & sheds some light on this seedy industry.

 

[HidingInTheHaze]

I'll start by asking...
Do alcoholic mothers produce normal children?
The answer is both yes & no for obvious reasons that both normal & abnormal development can occur.

From what I've read, in the past, genetic code is reset and disease free when it is split then recombined. Therefore, nothing bad could happen. However, reality seems to never match theory.

I don't know how much of the science carries over from humans to plants, but modern science has found that many environmental stresses in utero can have a lasting effect of the genetics of humans. It's called epigenetics, where environment can change the outcome.

To expand upon your example:

Epigenetics

Search for food in the Hunger Winter

During the Hunger Winter (the Dutch famine of 1944-1945) the west of the Netherlands suffered from an extreme lack of food. It now appears that the limited food intake of mothers who were pregnant during this period altered the genetic material of embryos in the early stages of development. The effects of this can still be observed some sixty years later. These alterations are not changes in the genetic code, but a different setting for the code which indicates whether a gene is on or off. This is known as epigenetics. One of the main processes in epigenetics is connecting the small molecule methyl to DNA.

 

[JointOperation]

ive heard that acclimating to outdoors.. if u make seeds outdoors. the offspring will do better outside the next year..

im wondering if this is the case with seed production. i was hoping someone like sam the skunkman did a side by side or some sort of experiment. but i guess not lol.

hoping someone else chimes in here

 

[Miraculous Meds]

Not a breeder here but I feel like I understand ur question so...

No to effecting the seed for hermy traits. hermies are there because its in the genetics.

Next question was weird phenos.

No imo, that is because of breeding polyhybrids that will have a lot of different phenos, or untested crosses that produce undesirable results.

while I feel confident about my answers I look forward to more knowledgeable people coming in here and confirming it or teaching us something here.

 

[Betterhaff]

I’ve made seeds both indoors and out, same crosses and didn’t really see any difference other than the outdoor seeds were ready sooner. Genetically speaking I don’t see why there would be a difference but I don’t really know, just thinking about the mechanics.

As far as the health of the plant, healthier plants will give you better seeds (quality wise) and also more of them. Will unhealthy plants produce genetically inferior seeds, again I don’t really know.

I will say I’ve had seeds damaged by mites though. I’ve had some pollinated plants get a severe case of spider mites and they did damage the seeds so if you have seeded plants that get mites…get rid of the mites. When I’m growing for seed, they are the crop so I have no problem treating pollinated buds late in flower.

 

[SeedsOfFreedom]

I always assumed genetics ruled, and a cross would be identical every time if the same parents are used every time. Lately as I read about epigenetics and new science, I am having some doubt.

Epigenetic studies in agouti mice have shown genes can be switched on or off in future generations. Cannabis is a plant though, so it may play out differently.

Probably best keep those mamas and papas healthy until we know! As of now I am unsure if parental health affects progeny in Cannabis. I hope we can find a concrete answer here.

 

[JointOperation]

i was reading something about how outdoor produced seeds work better outdoors and indoors works better indoors..

and the hermi thing.. this is why some peoples S1s or Fems hermi much more then others.. the plants they used to reverse werent as healthy as they should of been before reversed .. but i dont know if this is true or not.. but thats what ive been reading.. and it kind of makes sense.. like humans.

and im talking freak phenos. not 1 that looks like the mom or dad that you didnt know was there. im talking about.. when you order something og kush.. and you pop seeds and get 8 og kush smelling and looking and 2 that are fruity and completly different..

lol.. but i get your idea MMeds. lol.

 

[bobblehead]

Different environments trigger different genetic expressions... being why 2 people can grow the same clone but have 2 slightly different results. Our dna is constantly mutating with the environment. Some of it gets repaired, some of it doesn't. Plant health matters for producing healthy seeds.

 

[amannamedtruth]

Viruses, bacteria, and nematodes can be passed through seeds. Its best to let your beans soak in some 3% H2O2 for 2 mns before planting. Use disposable gloves.

 

[Betterhaff]

Different environments producing different expressions of the same plant have nothing to do with the genotype, the genotype remains the same. A healthy plant may express differently than an unhealthy plant but I’m not sure that would have any bearing on the reproductive mechanism (meiosis). Unhealthy could cause stress and bring out hermaphroditic traits if there. Mutations can occur but at very low probabilities.

Expression can have a bearing on selection. JO asked about acclimation outdoors and a plant growing outdoors may express differently than a plant indoors so selecting outdoors for traits expressed would be along those lines (and vice versa).

 

[milkyjoe]

This is well documented in the vegetable industry. Yes the health of the plant the seeds come from matters tremendously. Especially micro nutrient nutrtion. In fact the best way to buy veggie seeds is to call around and find the heaviest test weght. Healthy seeds contain more nutrition and are heavier.

It is obviously a huge problem in our industry.

And it applies to clones also...healthy stock plant = better clone.

This is a really good question and should be far more important to us.

 

[rik78]

so, Milkyjoe, if I understand you corecctly, you saying that out of any number of seeds of any strain, the bigger size ones should be the best quality of all?

sorry if a bit complicate... the last bowl is not helping

 

[bigtacofarmer]

I would guess everything matters. everything

 

[milkyjoe]

so, Milkyjoe, if I understand you corecctly, you saying that out of any number of seeds of any strain, the bigger size ones should be the best quality of all?

sorry if a bit complicate... the last bowl is not helping

Yes. The extra size is nutrtion to get the seed off to the proper start...ever see the runt of the litter turn into the alpha?

 

[VerdantGreen]

seed size is partly genetic, and partly down to the health of the plant, apart from the embryo, the seed tissue,shell etc is produced by the female genetics rather than the pollen donor.
another big factor that effects the seed size and viability is how many seeds you try and make from one plant. the fewer seeds made, the bigger and longer lasting they are likely to be.
but apart from that i dont think that you will genetically change the offspring by the mother being unhealthy.. thats not how genetics work unless certain viruses or similar are involved.
epigenetics i think need to be ignored or discounted at this stage of our knowledge of them - cannabis being an annual i think its more the phenotype that will change from generation to generation if the environment changes. the genotype will remaim the same. we are just starting to understand genetics so epigenetics are hard to factor into this as well and still have any idea of what is going on!

of course anyone making seeds should keep their plants as healthy and well fed as possible... that goes without saying, but it should aso be born in mind that seeded plants (or branches on plants) always look much less healthy than sensi plants because the seeds forming will trigger senescence a lot more strongly.

plants full of maturing seeds are not nearly as photogenic as sensi plants



VG

 

[bboybungus]

Different environments trigger different genetic expressions... being why 2 people can grow the same clone but have 2 slightly different results. Our dna is constantly mutating with the environment. Some of it gets repaired, some of it doesn't. Plant health matters for producing healthy seeds.

This.

As it is a combination of genetic and epigenetic factors that will affect the quality and health of the seeds and plants, you should always select the healthiest plants, this includes the male and how you treat him. I used to leave my males in smaller pots, water and feed them less, however, my best seed stock has come from the one grow where I up-potted my best male into the same size flowering container as the females and treated him the same. Look at how horse studs are treated/valued the same or more over mares.

I also kill ALL hermies, no matter what. If you stick to that rule your subsequent generations will be very less hermie prone.

FYI: As far as epigenetics goes, they've discovered that methylated DNA can be passed onto offspring... so chemical contaminants may effect later generations via epigenetic factors.

 

[bobblehead]

It's evolution.

We are still learning every day, so there is no definitive answer... but environmental factors play a role in genetics.