Can't seem to get my plants to fade out in flower... help!

[Team Microbe]

Hey all, I've adapted organic growing for the past year and it's hands down the best thing I've done for my garden. My only issue I've found is getting the plants to fade out completely and use up all the food that's in my soil.


My first run was in TGA Subdrool's slaughter house mix, and none faded at all. The smoke tasted really nasty and I had to toss it unfortunately.





My outdoor grow this year had the same thing happen... but only for certain strains like Church and Blue Widow. Same deal, the smoke tastes off and the ash burns black instead of white. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong here! The Subcool run above was given more than enough time to finish, so I have a feeling it has to do with nutrients not being cycled enough or something... leaving them in the plants during the chop. Thoughts?







My current grow is in a Build A Soil mix I mixed and composted myself

This mix contains:

2/3 Part Worm Castings
1/3 Part Oly Mountain Fish Compost
1 Part Sphagnum Peat Moss
2/3 Part Pumice
1/3 Part Rice Hulls

Nutrients included in the soil:

Acadian Kelp Meal @ 1/2 Cup per cubic foot
Neem Cake and Karanja Cake 50/50 Mix @ 1/2 cup per cubic foot
Crustacean Meal @ 1/2 cub per cubic foot
Gypsum Dust @ 1 Cup Per Cubic Foot
Brix Blend Basalt @ 1 Cup Per Cubic Foot
Glacial Rock Dust @ 1 Cup Per Cubic Foot
Oyster Flour @ 1 Cup Per Cubic Foot




I'm about to flip the girls in this ^ mix into 12/12 so I wanted to touch on this before I made the same mistake again. Does anyone have any idea what I'm doing wrong here?

Thanks guys

 

[VerdantGreen]

this is one of the things that organic peeps often disagree on, and imo that is because its a potential downside of recycled soil, beds and compost rich mixes that dont become nutrient depleted.
genetically some plants will fade out much easier than others, but in my experience, the soil richness and volume is a big factor. in a too-rich soil the plants will often store too many nutrients in themselves as they grow - making them not fade or smoke so well.

that said, your pics of the outdoor plants dont really look a very dark green which is often a sign of potential problems (again depends on the strain as well).

hard to say if your listed mix is too nutrient rich, perhaps 33% compost/castings is a bit too much depending on how strong the fish compost is. you could always cut it with a bit more peat moss to dilute it. in your situation, plants getting hungry and fading too early will maybe be better than the problem you're having.

not sure if you are using beds or pots but the volume of soil will also make a difference - the more rootspace, the harder it might be to get your plants to fade out. plants in small pots will usually fade earlier due to rootbinding issues.

like i said, many organic people think that plants will do what they do regardless of the soil nutrients, but that is not what i have found when running the same cuts over and over again in different soils. i found it harder to get my plants to senesce consistently in recycled soil than i did in a carefully measured and mixed one-use organic soil, but i pretty much got there eventually.

sometimes i think that some people must have iron lungs and not notice the difference. i have sensitive lungs and coughing fits happen easily to me. i find the plants that fade out the most dramatically are invariably the smoothest tastiest smoke and potency seems unaffected. not sure if yield is affected but i still get yields of 1gpw or more so thats better than most anyway.

p.s. the type of fast release N found in blood meal has to be used very sparingly as it is likely public enemy number 1 when it comes to harsh smoking

VG

 

[Team Microbe]

Thanks for the detailed response VG, it makes a lot of sense now that I think about it.

I hope I can get these to fade, they're in 10 gallon pots about to flipped to flower after 5 weeks of veg (they're a few feet tall).

Would compost tea aid in this process by making the nutrients in the soil more available for transport to the plant? Someone recommended fulvic acid to me when I sprung the question at them, so I found some FulPower that I'll be trying.

I'm wondering if a simple flowering top-dress would be a better idea next time around... and keep the same mix for veg and flower:
1/3 aeration
1/3 compost
1/3 peat
with just oyster shell powder and kelp added in there


What do you think?


hmmm... they never said organic soil would be easy did they lol

 

[VerdantGreen]

i prefer to mix my amendments into the soil, but i keep them light-ish. i use 20% compost in my mix (10% castings and 10% compost)

i would be careful of adding too much fulvic or similar, especially in the last 3rd of the flowering period, it may just encourage the plant to take up more nutrients.
im no expert on compost tea but again i would use it earlier on.

VG

 

[Microbeman]

like i said, many organic people think that plants will do what they do regardless of the soil nutrients, but that is not what i have found when running the same cuts over and over again in different soils. i found it harder to get my plants to senesce consistently in recycled soil than i did in a carefully measured and mixed one-use organic soil, but i pretty much got there eventually.

Just in case this is in reference to what I have said in past, it is absolutely not what I said. There are all kinds of nutrients organic or not, one can apply to soil which can have the effect of forcing a plant to stave off senscence. What I discuss(ed) is the use of sequestered nutrients, such as are found in sphagnum peatmoss which VG has mentioned and found in properly composted organic matter and properly digested vermicompost.

I have grown in the same soil year after year, doing some topdressing of [vermi]compost and organic matter usually every year (not this year) and plants which are predisposed to fade as they enter senescence do so, despite having sufficient sequestered nutrients left in the soil to support the following year's vegetation.

It is a valid point that this just does not work with small volumes of soil. If one is remixing - reusing soil then IMO it is best to use only {vermi}compost in the mix and very little if any soluble fertilizer type ingredients.

I agree with VG on the fulvic acids.

I'd try the compost tea idea on some plants and see if it helps. Often we've used ACT very close to the end.

Natural growing is easy IMO. I just think sometimes we forget to keep it easy.

You may find that indica dominent plants enter senescence earlier and easier(?).

 

[Team Microbe]

Thanks for stopping in Tim! I love your website. I was talking to Jeremy from BAS yesterday about this and he had a similar response to yours:

"I think you'll have better luck getting a fade with the new soil recipe you are trying. Some genetics just don't fade like others will and you'll notice the smoke is still smooth... others though, just aren't done yet like you mentioned and will taste harsh. The main difference is the ability for the plant to actually go into senescence.

In a no-till living soil that is full of life the plant can operate off of very little nutrient input, this is getting the plant to be strong and grow according to the soil.... where on the other hand, when using super soil full of fast release nutrients like Blood meal etc..... The plant doens't have as much of a choice, the nutrients are there and the plant is lazier and doesn't isn't required to work as hard to feed itself. As flowering wraps up and there is still Nitrogen in the soil.... the plant will still go through senescence and stop feeding on nitrogen, that being said, if the soil is still full of fast release nutrients it won't be able to do that... That is why many feel that a living soil recipe is a better way to go, using whole plant inputs like kelp and neem instead of single ingredient, fast release nutes.

Time will tell this round, but my guess is you'll have a better fade and more pleasing flavors.

For instance, take our BuildASoil product and open the bag and plant into it.... your plants look really hungry if they have already been growing in a fast release nutrient soil..... So you'll have to ramp up the LOS with a compost tea and really get the life of the soil kicking..... after that everything get's healthy and green. Where with the supersoil, the leaves will be so dark green you might actually see leaf issues and over fertilization happening."





So what you're saying is if I'm only in 10 gallon pots it's more efficient to use a light input of nutrients?

Would you say that last mix I listed in my first post is too strong for this amount of soil?

I'm trying to dial my runs in here, I have a feeling I should beef up the size of my pots now. What about larger pots makes the plant ease into senescence easier? One would think it would be easier to finish up the last of the food in a smaller pot rather than a larger one, no? Now I'm curious how this works out

 

[fulltimehuman]

I just read a thread yesterday and ill look for it but point being it was a side by side soil amendment test grow.
Bottom line was Steer manure and worm castings made better tasting herb etc.
Fish emulsion most definitely made the final product bad tasting. I'd lay off so much fish emulsion. I'll look for that thread.

 

[Microbeman]

TM; My thought is that you are okay with 10 gallons and if reamending rather than trying notill, you may wish to try a plant or three with less initial inputs. All I can suggest is trying a few differing methods until you hit what you prefer.

IMO keeping things basic and having good quality [vermi]compost is key. I've for a long time been a proponent of topdressing (glad to see Crazy has moved that way) because in my opinion the microorganisms near the surface are best equipped and supplied with O2 & N to process raw organic matter/nutrients. This is why I contend that it is difficult to overuse well made compost (& ramial chips) (others do not agree) I would not advise transplanting...stick with one container.

I know it sounds idealistic but the greatest success I've had with cannabis, so far as end results go, have come from not overdoing nutrients and staying simple.

 

[xmobotx]

i don;t mean to step on anybody's toes but, i feel like the amendment "charge" is too high in every "recipe" I've seen. for something like this, it likely means a successive no-till crop will be closer to ideal.

did you follow the guidelines? i.e. mix, mulch w/ 2" of EWC, top-dress w/ botanicals, mulch w/ barley straw, use coconut water &/or SSTs from time to time???

cootz talks about alfalfa tea alongside his endorsement of comfrey. if you use alfalfa tea in flower, it will delay senescence. so will cover crops of N fixing legumes like the clover which is popular

 

[milkyjoe]

Imo...so take it for what you think it is worth...free nitrates in the plant is the cause of bad taste and bud that won't burn white. If you can get the plant to convert all nitrates into protein (or at least aminos or peptides) it does not have to fade to taste great and burn white...do they fade tobacco?

The first key is to get the microbes to cycle N just like MM describes. This prevents you from getting the plant overloaded in the first place. You should also work to develop nitrase reductase enzymes (knock an oxygen off no3). That requires Mo and sulfate. And last you should maintain luxury levels of Mg...as one Mg can tie up four nitrates forming chlorophyll...a protein.

Just a thought like I said. It does have the added benefit of keeping the plant healthy its entire life. You may not notice amber trichs this way until curing...when the bud is dead and oxidation can begin.

 

[Corpsey]

3-4 years ago I had a mix that had about the same amount of compost/ewc. And I had 1/2 cup per cf of neem cake in there. This mix burnt kinda nasty, pretty harsh too.

Since then I have not used neem cake, lowered compost/ewc to 20% total and I'm mixing amendments in very light, then top dressing. This last batch was the smoothest smoke I have had thanks to crazy composer via this thread : https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=290150

 

[Team Microbe]

i don;t mean to step on anybody's toes but, i feel like the amendment "charge" is too high in every "recipe" I've seen. for something like this, it likely means a successive no-till crop will be closer to ideal.

did you follow the guidelines? i.e. mix, mulch w/ 2" of EWC, top-dress w/ botanicals, mulch w/ barley straw, use coconut water &/or SSTs from time to time???

cootz talks about alfalfa tea alongside his endorsement of comfrey. if you use alfalfa tea in flower, it will delay senescence. so will cover crops of N fixing legumes like the clover which is popular

Yeah I mulch with castings and compost followed by barley straw, with barley grass coming up in between it. Coconut water, Aloe Vera, Potassium silicate and fulPower are used intermittently in my watering schedule.


Thanks for that tip man I didn't know that..

Do you think I chop and drop the barley grass before flowering begins then?

 

[Team Microbe]

TM; My thought is that you are okay with 10 gallons and if reamending rather than trying notill, you may wish to try a plant or three with less initial inputs. All I can suggest is trying a few differing methods until you hit what you prefer.

IMO keeping things basic and having good quality [vermi]compost is key. I've for a long time been a proponent of topdressing (glad to see Crazy has moved that way) because in my opinion the microorganisms near the surface are best equipped and supplied with O2 & N to process raw organic matter/nutrients. This is why I contend that it is difficult to overuse well made compost (& ramial chips) (others do not agree) I would not advise transplanting...stick with one container.

I know it sounds idealistic but the greatest success I've had with cannabis, so far as end results go, have come from not overdoing nutrients and staying simple.

I wish I would've cut the Build A Soil nutrient kit now, my girls in veg seem to be happier than the girls in the nutrient-rich mix... and they just have kelp, oyster shell powder, crab shell meal and peat/compost/rice hulls/pumice. Would this be more along the lines of a mix you would recommend for long-term no till? That's my ultimate goal here...

 

[xmobotx]

one might think the chop n drop could tie up some N ~but, of course, the straw is doing that anyway.... kinda think the veg/flower "feed" idea isn't integral w/ long term no-till. i change away from foliars in flower but treat the soil mostly the same w/ a SST or CT or chop n drop now & then just like veg

 

[Team Microbe]

sounds good xmobotx! thanks for the advice

 

[br26]

how are the trichs?? gotta be somethin u can do with em...

 

[Ranger]

Just in case this is in reference to what I have said in past, it is absolutely not what I said. There are all kinds of nutrients organic or not, one can apply to soil which can have the effect of forcing a plant to stave off senescence. What I discuss(ed) is the use of sequestered nutrients, such as are found in sphagnum peatmoss which VG has mentioned and found in properly composted organic matter and properly digested vermicompost.

I have grown in the same soil year after year, doing some topdressing of [vermi]compost and organic matter usually every year (not this year) and plants which are predisposed to fade as they enter senescence do so, despite having sufficient sequestered nutrients left in the soil to support the following year's vegetation.

It is a valid point that this just does not work with small volumes of soil. If one is remixing - reusing soil then IMO it is best to use only {vermi}compost in the mix and very little if any soluble fertilizer type ingredients.

I agree with VG on the fulvic acids.

I'd try the compost tea idea on some plants and see if it helps. Often we've used ACT very close to the end.

Natural growing is easy IMO. I just think sometimes we forget to keep it easy.

You may find that indica dominent plants enter senescence earlier and easier(?).

I have the same batch of soil I made several years ago VIA your recipes Tim and they have had no problems with senescence. I have never used any "meal" type amendments though.

I only amend with rock dust, buck wheat hulls and a pinch of Kelp and Alfalfa each year and very little of that. I do not amend my whole soil batch with EWC, but I do topdress the individual pots with it during the grow.

My plants burn and taste just fine and it could be argued that whether or not senescence is reached, bares much difference in flavor at all. Flavor and burn to me, in this context, is probably tied more so to cure verses grow conditions and or like you mentioned "faster release" amendments.

One thing also that may help or hinder such a discussion would be the difference in individual chemo types and even between different bud sites.

 

[Granger2]

What's are some good sources [retailers, online and whatever] for coconut water that's not heavily processed or preserved? I don't want the goodies in the coconut water/milk to have been destroyed by too much heat or anything. Thanks. -granger

 

[Team Microbe]

What's are some good sources [retailers, online and whatever] for coconut water that's not heavily processed or preserved? I don't want the goodies in the coconut water/milk to have been destroyed by too much heat or anything. Thanks. -granger

http://buildasoil.com/products/coconut-water-powder-raw-freeze-dried-organic has coconut powder, that's the cheapest source I've found. Ideally, raw coconuts cut open and drained would be the best option but it's pretty expensive if you go that route

 

[ct guy2]

http://buildasoil.com/products/coconut-water-powder-raw-freeze-dried-organic has coconut powder, that's the cheapest source I've found. Ideally, raw coconuts cut open and drained would be the best option but it's pretty expensive if you go that route

I think it was Spurr that posted something about how raw coconut water is not the same as the powder and that the powder doesn't have the same enzymatic qualities.