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AN CarboLoad, is it really that good?

glow

Active member
Hey Glow these sites are great way to get good info ,, Person just has to be cautious on what he takes into his grow room.
Now i have been reading allot about Hydro growing as i am about to do a ppk tree grow which in reality is same thing DWC using flood an drain style a perched water table and wicking, doing some changes implementing aquaponics as well sorta into the equation
we see how it goes anyways this thread has swayed away from adding carbs not sure on the price of Advanced carbo boosts ???? As a soil grower turning to ppk i used liquid honey pretty much the same thing as any carbo boost out there i just make sure i heat it prior i have evened used actual maple tree water ( same stuff they make maple syrup with )
molasses, Honey are plentiful in the micro nutrients and sugars needed for mid to late stages of flowering anything to help plant along the way is key ( keeping her green is key
this helps combat deficiencies allows plant not to use all of its stored glucose.. were just rewarding the plant as i see it

Now on to your Organic hydro an the problems with it
The main problems most novice hydroponic growers have is maintaining the proper nutrient levels in the water reservoir, keeping the ratio of nutrients correct, and having a constantly balanced pH. If these three things are not precisely calibrated, the hydroponic garden will not thrive as it should.
Specialized concentrated nutrients are used in the reservoir, because standard organic nutrients will interact with other organisms in the water and begin to decompose. This can quickly make your reservoir water into a rotting, toxic soup. The concentrated, "clean" synthesized chemicals do not interact with organisms in the water environment, and therefore the reservoir water stays "clean,"

^^^^^^^^^ so how would a person add organic nutrients into DWC ????
being top 1/3 of root system actually is the nutrient uptake and lower root system is water up take ?
from what i am reading going to a dual root system the creation of a primary/upper and secondary/lower composition of the medium in the container. The upper or primary root system and medium of soil or soil substitute is structured so organic nutrients may be applied directly to them. No nutrients are placed in the lower hydroponic watered area or secondary root system.
a hydroponic grow container that allows for organic nutrients to be applied directly to the upper primary growing medium rather than into the lower secondary water receiving root system. and this is where a person has to come up with a way to keep them seperate upper nutrient table and ower water table sorta like ppk growing


You're totally misinterpreting what I am saying. I am saying grow hydro. Forget organics. Organics is rubbish and will give you lower yields and more complexity than you will ever need. What I am however saying is beneficials in hydroponics rock in certain situations - particularly in organic substrates such as coir and peat. However, you need to handle it correctly. If you are saying that using 1ml/L of a ferment of molasses, placing a lid on a nutrient tank along with a fermenting airlock, and using a $2 inline 0.2 micron syringe filter on your airline is more complex then you are seriously grow challenged. What I am also doing is educating growers how to handle the use of beneficials correctly. Another thing is that inorganic nutrients only provide specific nutrient ions. Benefits (yield improvements) can be gained from the use of certain organic elements in hydroponics. Eg - fulvic acid which acts as a chelator and complexer in solution and amino acids which can provide amazing benefits to growth (particularly in grow) and beneficial bacteria and fungi are scientifically shown to improve yields in hydroponics through releasing IAA and other amazing compounds. Besides this they induce plant defense responses through SAR and other means. But sure mate - if you want to settle on mediocrity go for your life (each to their own). I don't teach people how to be mediocre.

BTW - I teach run to waste. Fresh feed every time. No nutrient depletion. The reason I teach novice growers RTW/DTW is because I totally understand the science of plant nutrient interactions. E.g. preferential nutrient uptake where N,P,K and Mn are actively absorbed in high amounts while other nutrients are hardly taken at all. This creates horrible nutrient imbalances in recirc systems when growers who have limited knowledge are working with them. I could give you a lesson in this but you're a dogmatic fool who probably wouldn't listen so why bother. Basically, recirc systems are not suitable for untrained, non formally educated growers. RTW ensures ideal nutrition every time at every feed and also ensures pH stability because OH- or HCO3- or H3O + ions are not messing with pH. I.e.

Why does pH change in nutrient solutions?

This comes back to understanding the power of hydrogen, otherwise known as potential hydrogen in solution and some of our earlier material on EC where we touched on positively charged cations and negatively charged anions in hydroponic solutions. Other than this, pH changes largely occur due to the principle of electroneutrality where chemical reactions take place on an equivalent basis. The law of electroneutrality states that in any single ionic solution (e.g. a hydroponic nutrient solution) a sum of negative electrical charges attracts an equal sum of positive electrical charges. Therefore, according to the principle of electroneutrality, the total charge of an aqueous solution must be zero. For this to occur, the number of positive charges contributed by cations must be equal to the number of negative charges contributed by anions.

Based on this, in very simple terms, when a plant removes a positively charged cation from the nutrient reservoir/tank it leaves a negatively charged anion in its place and when a plant removes an anion from the nutrient reservoir/tank it leaves a cation in its place.

The ratio in uptake of anions and cations by plants may cause substantial shifts in pH. In general, an excess of cation over anion leads to a decrease in pH, whereas an excess of anion over cation uptake leads to an increase in pH. That is, when the anions are uptaken in higher concentrations than cations the plant excretes OH- or HCO3- anions to balance the electrical charges inside, which increases the pH value. This process is called physiological alkalinity (Marschner, 1995). For example, if a plant absorbs the negatively charged nitrate nitrogen (NO3-) heavily it will start to contribute more OH - than H3O + ions into the solution and the result will be an increase in pH. On the other hand, if the plant absorbs high levels of the positively charged potassium (K+) it will contribute more H3O + than OH - ions and the result will be a decrease in pH.

This phenomenom is frequently seen where plants are grown with a full spectrum nutrient solution that contains nitrogen either as ammonium nitrogen (NH4+) or nitrate (NO3- ) nitrogen. When plants are fed only with NH4+, cation uptake generally exceeds anion uptake and the pH of the substrate decreases. On the other hand, when the plant is fed only with NO3- the uptake of anion to cation ratio is typically higher and as a result the pH of the substrate increases. This becomes important in understanding that a well formulated hydroponic nutrient contains an ideal ratio of ammonium nitrogen to nitrate nitrogen in order to minimize this situation and better maintain pH stability in the root zone and nutrient solution. We cover more about this on page….

As a general rule, daylight photosynthesis (when the plant is taking up high degrees of mineral nutrition) produces hydrogen ions which can cause the nutrient acidity to increase (lowering the pH). When the lights switch off photosynthesis stops and the plants increase their rate of respiration. This coupled with the respiration of microorganisms uses up the hydrogen ions so the acidity of the solution tends to decrease (pH rises).


And sorry, the system you just described is nothing like deep water culture. Chalk and cheese. I hope those rather average looking plants are in flush stage. You have some serious deficiencies if not.
 
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glow

Active member
Quite the heated dick swinging contest over sugar water

Yup - although a couple of very small dicks are being swung.

Speaking of which - here is the original AN formula for producing Carboload (manufacturer direct). I'll post it as screen shots so you can see they are originals and also so the text holds together.

So bringing this thread back on topic. Is AN Carbload any good? Nope , its hideously overpriced garbage being flogged to people who don't know any better. Follow this formula (all the ingredients are dead easy to find) and make a litre for about 20c.

BTW, AN use lignite derived Fulvic Acid - it's garbage. High in humic acid and low in fulvic acid (perhaps 2% fulvic acid at best). Do yourself a favour and find a high quality fulvic acid product if you are going to mix this formula.
 

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papaduc

Active member
Veteran
Ok...

First of all, let me just say, I like a debate, and I like a challenge. I welcome anyone with any knowledge to talk and discuss things I'm interested in. It's great. It's why we come here; to talk plants.

But let's just talk straight... Am I the only one thinking hold on, this fella is supposedly an author, connected within the field of hydroponic research, friend of the Professors and Chemists... and this is how he talks?

"fuck you... you fucking moron... fuckin idiot... fuck off now. your plants look like shit... they need the RSPCA... you're a dumb shit.. grow a brain dipshit...organics is a load of wank"

:D

I've got to say, I'm a little suspicious. I can't take this fella seriously. I just can't. Maybe he's one of those weird genius types, like Mozart, who act like complete and utter moronic idiots but who are intellectually gifted...

Or maybe he's just a moronic idiot with a Ctrl & a C button who can copy the words of the intellectually gifted.

I know where my money is.

Glow, don't your scientific and intellectual principles make you feel even a little bit guilty when you descend to such immaturity? What would your PhD friends *cough... if they're real.... ahem* think of your inability to convey your point much much better than that?

Let's get some perspective on this situation... the root rot can wait...

This is your response to my posts the other day:

Yep - well covered

Amen to that brother. Nicely put.

So, what caused the complete change of opinion which now makes me the most incompetent clown piece of shit rat (it's ok I forgive you :huggg: ) you've ever spoken to in all your years on the internet?

The post which prompted your change of mind was this:


With respect, I think you're missing the general point of the question.

Doesn't the fact that the reservoir must to be maintained at such standards as to require the air to be filtered to remove airborne pathogens, suggest that bacterial brewing is not the most effective way of maintaining a sterile res/preventative environment in the first place, and that in effect, seeing as how the bacteria are by your own admission used for very little else and nothing to do with the feeding of the plant which is done by chemically chelated nutrients, it would probably be best to ditch the idea completely when growing hydroponically using chemical feeds?

I don't think my questions are that strange to be honest. It just seems like more of a commitment than is worthwhile, seeing as what you're using them for is as a preventative only.

I'm a coco grower btw, chemical nutes, no need for bacteria etc, I have never seen the point.

That's it. Just my opinion. One I still stand by for reasons I won't go into now because unlike some of the gullible sheep round here, I don't think you're worthy of that much of my time right now. Maybe tomorrow

You assumed that because I was cynical about the efficacy of beneficial bacteria as a defense mechanism in a recirculating system/reservoir - which, I must add, is a feeling shared by qualified people in the field - that I had an agenda as an organic grower.

When you saw that I grew in coco, you changed your post quickly from calling me a "fucking idiot" back to a much more friendly tone...

God only knows what suffering has happened to you at the hands of organic growers that's filled you with such poison towards them. I don't know if any psychologists specilaise in that area. But one thing's for sure, your opinion on large parts of the community is vile and, if not for the fact that you are quite comical, would be found extremely offensive by a lot of very knowledgeable respected people in the horticultural industry.

Thankfully, they don't even know who you are.

Oh, and seeing as how you were just recently on the subject of correcting people's grammar, if you're speaking metaphorically, it's "an intellectual baseball bat"... not "an intelligent baseball bat"

But, as the author of a book, I take it you already knew that ;)
 

glow

Active member
Ok...

First of all, let me just say, I like a debate, and I like a challenge. I welcome anyone with any knowledge to talk and discuss things I'm interested in. It's great. It's why we come here; to talk plants.

But let's just talk straight... Am I the only one thinking hold on, this fella is supposedly an author, connected within the field of hydroponic research, friend of the Professors and Chemists... and this is how he talks?

"fuck you... you fucking moron... fuckin idiot... fuck off now. your plants look like shit... they need the RSPCA... you're a dumb shit.. grow a brain dipshit...organics is a load of wank"

:D

I've got to say, I'm a little suspicious. I can't take this fella seriously. I just can't. Maybe he's one of those weird genius types, like Mozart, who act like complete and utter moronic idiots but who are intellectually gifted...

Or maybe he's just a moronic idiot with a Ctrl & a C button who can copy the words of the intellectually gifted.

I know where my money is.

Glow, don't your scientific and intellectual principles make you feel even a little bit guilty when you descend to such immaturity? What would your PhD friends *cough... if they're real.... ahem* think of your inability to convey your point much much better than that?

Let's get some perspective on this situation... the root rot can wait...

This is your response to my posts the other day:





So, what caused the complete change of opinion which now makes me the most incompetent clown piece of shit rat (it's ok I forgive you :huggg: ) you've ever spoken to in all your years on the internet?

The post which prompted your change of mind was this:




That's it. Just my opinion. One I still stand by for reasons I won't go into now because unlike some of the gullible sheep round here, I don't think you're worthy of that much of my time right now. Maybe tomorrow

You assumed that because I was cynical about the efficacy of beneficial bacteria as a defense mechanism in a recirculating system/reservoir - which, I must add, is a feeling shared by qualified people in the field - that I had an agenda as an organic grower.

When you saw that I grew in coco, you changed your post quickly from calling me a "fucking idiot" back to a much more friendly tone...

God only knows what suffering has happened to you at the hands of organic growers that's filled you with such poison towards them. I don't know if any psychologists specilaise in that area. But one thing's for sure, your opinion on large parts of the community is vile and, if not for the fact that you are quite comical, would be found extremely offensive by a lot of very knowledgeable respected people in the horticultural industry.

Thankfully, they don't even know who you are.

Oh, and seeing as how you were just recently on the subject of correcting people's grammar, if you're speaking metaphorically, it's "an intellectual baseball bat"... not "an intelligent baseball bat"

But, as the author of a book, I take it you already knew that ;)


Mate safe to say clowns like you come to forums to troll and hate. You're a retarded prick pal. That simple. PS, thanks for the grammar lesson but I meant "intelligent" baseball bat. Bit like a smart bomb:)
 

Granger2

Active member
Veteran
> Forget organics. Organics is rubbish and will give you lower yields and more complexity than you will ever need.

Glow,
This is all I need to know about you and your opinions. Rigid, closed minded, intolerant, head up ass. And oh, sorry. I left out ignorant. -granger
 

glow

Active member
And there's me giving you the benefit of the doubt...

Again you fool - I don't give a shite about what you think and how you try to pitch things (passive aggressive bitch). Ultimately you are an idiot and why IC Mag hasn't banned you is beyond me. Now piss off and go troll kiddy porn sites or whatever else you do when you're not circulating hate and dissension on forums.
 

glow

Active member
> Forget organics. Organics is rubbish and will give you lower yields and more complexity than you will ever need.

Glow,
This is all I need to know about you and your opinions. Head up ass. -granger

Lol - mate if you're an organic advocate what can I say? Shit in - shit out. Powered by poo. Eat shit and die etc. Never has so much shite been spun by a bunch of chemtards (science denialists) than has been by fear mongering mung head corpo capitalists. If i offend you - great! Your mob offend the hell out of me. If you want to talk about false marketing and utter bullshit and overpriced products look no further than the organics marketing lobby. They make hydro manufacturers look ethical.

Here's an article you may enjoy (not) http://www.manicbotanix.com/hydroponic-grow-guide/hydroponics-v-organics.html

BTW - if you disagree with anything said in this article (and you will) find credible, peer reviewed research that proves it wrong and I'll add the research. I stress credible, peer reviewed research and not shite written by organic lobby groups.
 

papaduc

Active member
Veteran
Anyone who believes this fella is anything but a blatant imposter deserves every con they get served in life.

Glow, do you write for a website called smartfertiliser.com?

I ask because in your reply to Dr.Fever up above, you said

Therefore, according to the principle of electroneutrality, the total charge of an aqueous solution must be zero. For this to occur, the number of positive charges contributed by cations must be equal to the number of negative charges contributed by anions.

Based on this, in very simple terms, when a plant removes a positively charged cation from the nutrient reservoir/tank it leaves a negatively charged anion in its place and when a plant removes an anion from the nutrient reservoir/tank it leaves a cation in its place.

Which looks suspiciously like what is written on their website

According to the principle of electroneutrality, the total charge of an aqueous solution must be zero. Therefore, the number of positive charges must be equal to the number of negative charges.

Except for the addition of some words in between, then your rather crude own "simple version" tagged on.

It seems this is the theme of almost every one of your posts. Do you write research papers for a lot of chinese students and fertiliser information for a lot of websites?
 

glow

Active member
Your level as a human being.



And the more he talks, the less they listen.

Yawn - I think everyone is bored with this. Go away fool or add something intelligent to the thread.

Its an odd thing - when someone highlights what an idiot/con/retard someone else is and that person is left with nothing intelligent to say (intelligent information to the contrary) what they then try to do is attack and undermine the author who has shown them up as an idiot/con/retard. You've spent most of your time talking utter shit and the rest of it trying to undermine me through personal insults and trying to say I'm a plagiarist. Mate, I aren't writing academic papers although always cite my sources. Steiner came up with the concept of electoneutrality in hydroponic solutions you git (anyone with half a clue knows this). Schon proved him wrong and this has since been supported by several other authors - although there is also some basis to Steiner's theories (part of the metanarrative). But then I doubt you've ever done higher education and if you have you should ask for your money back. Your attempts to undermine me are just weak. Don't you get it clown shoes? The smart crew see you for what you are. You have a rep and are now living into that rep. Get a life - man up - and take your insults to a pub where someone would put you into intensive care very quickly. That is why weak fools like yourself use forums to live out their fantasies. Meantime stop killing peoples crops and giving out bad information asshole and please don't post any more pictures of your sad arsed looking plants. I get very depressed looking at beaten and abused plants.
 
R

Red Berry

are they fighting over carbo load or something else ? i dont even have time to skim that right now.
 

glow

Active member
Hey Papa Duck (if it looks like a duck and quacks like one well....) re this Anyone who believes this fella is anything but a blatant imposter deserves every con they get served in life.

Tell ya what smart arse. Here's an open challenge to prove what an idiot you are to all people who frequent this forum. I run the website manicbotanix.com (anyone who is anyone is pretty much aware of this). Now I will bet you $100,000.00 that I can have a message on the homepage of manicbotanix.com that says quack quack, love Glow one hour after you accept this bet and I see your acceptance. Money talks or bullshit walks. What's it to be imposter (i.e. he who talks the talk but can't walk the walk)?

And hell yeah bro - I have a foul mouth lol. Don't you know that I come from the land down under where women blow and men thunder. Blow me bitch:)
 

Dr.King

Member
Veteran
I use plenty of the Advanced Nutrients products with great success, Carboload included. 12 Total at different times throughout Veg and Flower. With my Sativas I adjust my nutrient amounts for grow lengths and sensitivities depending on the strain. Here are some of my own examples of plants using AN products.

Ace's Malawi Week 10 (Not Finished)

K4MsCEO.jpg


Ace's Panama (Week 17 Harvest)

8iU8EYf.jpg


CBG's Colombian Gold (Week 16 Harvest)

T7EJo9N.jpg


G13 Labs Blue Og (Week 9 Harvest)

B4pRLzp.jpg


G13 Labs C99 (Week 9 Harvest)

FdCs6Ns.jpg
 

glow

Active member
Not to diminish your grow or your choices in nutrient and additives. But what I'd like to see is some golden mean's that provide scale. Those buds look pretty small given the genetics but without something to provide scale it is hard to tell.

One pic from a grow op I ran with a friend and a second pic from another friend (Feral ex Mod on Natures High - RIP) with his first coco grow (best bud from it) which I ran for him re feeds and nutrients and daily checks. These were taken about 13 years ago. One grow equals a nutrient we made at the store I worked in (something close to Canna Coco with higher K) and a PK product at about PK 5-14. Big arsed bud grown with a nutrient and potash. Both grows in coco with micros /bennies. Point being you do not need untold additives to grow big arsed buds. That is what AN and a few others would have you believe. The formula for Carboload is on this thread if you are determined to use sugar.
 

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papaduc

Active member
Veteran
Now I will bet you $100,000.00 that I can have a message on the homepage of manicbotanix.com that says quack quack

Do you think by crook I mean you're not the owner of a website?

What I mean is you take other people's work, add your twist to it, and pass it off as your own. Forget trying to blind me about who came up with the concept of electroneutrality in hydroponic solutions to avoid what I said before, your words in that post I quoted are clearly structured to make people believe they are your own.

They were copied and pasted, lifted directly from another source with your own twist added.

It's easy to decipher when you're speaking your own mind, because some of the diatribe you come out with, the people whose papers you cite in your crude references would never write.

"organic is a load of wank"...

How many academic journals do you think it would take to wash away the ignorance of a statement like that?

Let's just analyse that statement for a minute, and your comments about plants so far.

The only pictures you've posted appear to be outdoors.

Did you grow those hydroponically outdoors?
If so, for what purpose?

Your whole point is that organically grown weed is sub par low yielding shit... but those plants don't look like they yield any more than anything else stuck in the ground and left to grow. In fact there are organic growers on this site and others whose crops dwarf what you've shown us there.

If we focus instead on your application of the study of beneficial bacteria in hydroponics, what you're saying is contradictory to what has been found and researched in studies of the subject over the years and conveys a fundamental lack of understanding of the subject in application.

You talk about air filters in order to prevent airborne pathogens from entering into your reservoir water, but at the same time you're talking about beneficial bacteria being used as an effective preventative mechanism in place of more common methods of sterilisation such as sodium/calcium hypochlorite; methods which would not require the meticulous attention to control of such comparatively weak inoculum sources.

If what you're asserting is true, and the number of pythium spores contained just in the air brought in by your pump is enough alone to colonise the system, then it fundamentally weakens the argument for the efficacy of the practice.

Allied to this, it completely disregards the small and incomplete studies which show the potential effect of bacterial inoculation in the control over preexisting microbial populations.

In other words, you seem to have no clear grasp whatsoever on what you're talking about in regards to the results it's application yields in a practical setting.

But that's understandable, because nobody else does either. Not as of Oct 2014. Nothing clear and conclusive anyway. Maybe you could write a paper of your own to conclude your findings, and then maybe the world of science can learn something from you.

Cannabis is a simple herb, and my advice to people on this website is structured as such. I can say for sure that everyone who has followed my advice has had very good results. There are people who have never grown before who achieve results they are proud and happy with, who have thanked me for my input at the end, and that is why I'm here.

You spoke to someone just recently and told them 1.1ec was a low strength for full bloom. It's comments like those, as well as your ignorance in regards to organic gardening and seeming lack of knowledge of what healthy plants look like, which makes a mockery of your claims to be a knowledge on the subject.

1.0ec is the level of nutrient solution Heath Robinson used to break 2gpw.

1.0ec is also the level of nutrients I and many other growers use to grow my plants from beginning to end and break 1gpw consistently on many strains.

1.0-1.2ec of a properly balanced nutrient profile is all many growers will need to use to keep their plants in perfect health from the beginning to the end of their life.

You also talked about GH 3 part giving you more control over your nutrient profile than adjusting a one part because of it's three piece structure, omitting the fact that you are bound by the individual formula of each bottle when adjusting your basic ratios of NPK. In that sense they give you less control than two basic one part nutrients such as maxigrow & bloom, or some others on the market which allow you to adjust your NPK ratio, in the case of MB removing nitrogen almost entirely from the solution, while more easily maintaining the same/similar balance of all other secondary macros and micros.

In the end your results are the proof of your methods. Nothing else. Copy all the research papers in the world, but in the end if all you've got to show for it is some bang average plants in a garden, all you've proved is that cannabis is a simple herb complicated by idiots.

And if my plants look battered and abused, starved and neglected, you're in a minority of one on that. Or maybe there are other people who don't mind sacrificing some credibility in order to have a dig.

I actually agree with you regarding AN and what you say about certain aspects of feeding. It's a shame you invalidate it with the other garbage you come out with.
 

papaduc

Active member
Veteran
My god you are some piece of work...

I've just been over to your website and tried to copy some of the absolutely terrible information you are citing about hydrogen peroxide and chlorine, to post it here, and you have copy-protected it!

The entire website is FULL of other people's literature - to the point where if you couldn't copy and paste bits and pieces of research, you would NOT have a website - and you have copy protected it...! :D

Anyway, the long and short of it is that, yes, you've copied pieces of text and research, but, my god, your interpretation of it is absolutely shocking, to the point where for me to break each part of it down would take me hours out of my day which I refuse to waste on you.

What you're saying about chlorine and peroxide breaking down organic matter like coir fiber... Jesus... I don't even know where to start. It's the work of someone who has no concept or understanding of the literature he is quoting, or is deliberately misinterpreting it to mean something else so he can push new, incorrect information to sell a product.

It's plain to see you are trying to promote your site because you've had the brainstorming idea that nutrients are really cheap to make and you can sell a few if you sound like you know what you're talking about, and the best way to do that is bluff people with someone else's work, taken completely out of context and misinterpreted to mean something entirely different.

You have no shame whatsoever.

At the end of the day, if you wanted to sell cheap meat and pass it off as prime steak, you wouldn't take it to Gordon Ramsey.

No more from me now regarding you. People of intelligence and knowledge will be able to see exactly the same thing I see in you and your writing, and everyone else... Well, the Darwinian theory will dictate.
 
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