Broad Mite and Spider Mite IPM for Cannabis (lets get a convo going)

[Mikell]

I'm not advocating here for Nutrimite, it's ridiculously expensive, but this link is of interest to anyone implementing biocontrol.

Biobest uses cattail pollen (and I assume, a few fruit tree species thrown in for diversity), which can be obtained at a quarter of the price (60$ a pound) elsewhere.

Bearing in mind if you do go this route, research the health and oviposition rates for each biocontrol species fed on a number of pollen sources, it does vary dramatically.

Using EF420 calculations and Biobest feed rate (500g/ha or 202g/acre), and assuming they're correct, it works out to a range of 4.6-40mg/plant.

At 40mg/plant, 250$/500g, it works out to about 2 cents a plant, or 0.5 cents for DIY.

A re-release of 50,000 cucumeris, averaging 100-500 per plant (treatment of 500-100 plants respectively), works out to 8 - 40 cents a plant.

Makes the little Jew inside me so happy...

 

[caredrivensf]

I'm not advocating here for Nutrimite, it's ridiculously expensive, but this link is of interest to anyone implementing biocontrol.

Biobest uses cattail pollen (and I assume, a few fruit tree species thrown in for diversity), which can be obtained at a quarter of the price (60$ a pound) elsewhere.

Bearing in mind if you do go this route, research the health and oviposition rates for each biocontrol species fed on a number of pollen sources, it does vary dramatically.

Using EF420 calculations and Biobest feed rate (500g/ha or 202g/acre), and assuming they're correct, it works out to a range of 4.6-40mg/plant.

At 40mg/plant, 250$/500g, it works out to about 2 cents a plant, or 0.5 cents for DIY.

A re-release of 50,000 cucumeris, averaging 100-500 per plant (treatment of 500-100 plants respectively), works out to 8 - 40 cents a plant.

Makes the little Jew inside me so happy...

are you talking about time release predatory mites bags?

 

[cannascholar]

I like to spray about 5oz of sea-stim(quality kelp ), 1 ml pepzyme c, and a .5ml Micro 5000( beinificial bacteria,some nitrates and phosphates. I have spider mites in my gh but the spider mites move very slowly due and do less damage to long-chain, complex carbohydrates their munching on.

It's important to remember that a healthy plant is the best defense, followed by routine sprays. Too much N makes plants delicious to insects so be careful with it.

Another AEA product I've taken a likin to for mite control is Essent shield, a blend of Citronella oil, lemongrass oil,peppermint oil, wintergreen oil, clove oil, castor oil, palm oil. It's strong stuff, strong enough to fry your plants so a little goes a long way. Almost as cost effective as chems, around 30 bucks a gallon.


For those of you spraying chems, make it more worthwhile with indicate 5. It'll ensure your ph is 5, which is important for the pesticide to work it's magic. Also a spreader sticker.

For maintenance, Pyganic at about 10 ml, Nuke em at 30(label's recommendations are way to high, stuff has very low ph), triple action neem 30, and e shield 15ml. Not completely sure how well these products affect broads, but it's safe to say it slows em down and it sure as hell beats suiting up with chems.

 

[Mikell]

Oh noes.... AEA fanatics are spreading from their cave...

are you talking about time release predatory mites bags?

No, the bulk loose mixture in carrier (bran/verm, etc).

The breeding sachets hold the exact same mixture I believe, fungus mites reared on innoculated bran/verm to feed the control species.

 

[rasputin]

Just trying to get a decent convo going abt the correct ways to deal with these pests, applying products etc. i know tht it sounds crazy using only chemical pesticides but maybe Inshould have only suggested tht id you have a problem.

Well, if you're trying to put together an IPM for mites relying on one mode of defense is crazy, no? At the least, it's not true to IPM, it's not some buzzword so lets not use it as such. Avid and Forbid repeatedly in veg, potentially re-applied within the same time frame of existing generations of mites (it can take 7-21 days to reproduce a new generation, you'll have applied Forbid & Avid twice in that time-frame according to your veg routine) and used outside of major infestations is a bad idea. At the very least, it is not a long term, routine solution to the problem of encountering spider or broad mites.

See thing is "indoor" crops have a shorter life and are often in tight spaces with many crops going at once, so I think it is difficult not to rely on only biological controls. Especially since biological controls are aided by being outdoors where there is a lot more biological control than we realize.

I don't get your comment about "it is difficult not to rely on only biological controls", you're saying it's hard not to use predatory bugs indoors? Yet you aren't using them at all in veg... I don't understand? I think you meant to phrase that differently.

Outdoors there are many predators, sure, but the very lack of them indoors is what allows pests to come in and set up shop in the first place. One way to make it inhospitable is to incorporate predatory bugs that will stomp out an early pest problem before it can dig in. I think you're overlooking the fact that indoors predators go to work quickly because unlike outdoors, where there is a variety of prey, there is only 1 or 2 choices for dinner.

I wld only use my Veg IPM i circumstances where i have an infestation amd mutliple crops going in one single space. Also the rotation of the products will not have sucessive generarions being treates with same product so im not sire where your math is on tht. I appreciaye your feedback like i said i want a convo going and want to explore other tatics so we can all develop a sound IPM

In veg you're using one mode of action. No long term, effective IPM program does that on any level, that's just pest control. IPM is the antithesis of one approach, the idea is tackling the issue from a variety of angles. It isn't simply enough that you're using predators in flower, at that point it's somewhat redundant considering what you've blasted the plants with in veg. It's just somewhat baffling that you acknowledge their efficacy in flower but for some reason avoid using them in veg, where they can actually help stop the problem before it warrants the application of pesticides. Seems a little ass backwards, frankly.

Your veg strategy would be significantly improved as an IPM program if you used biological controls as well as examining the culture of your grow room - what is it that causes you to have mites repeatedly? Is there a common cause or vector? Are equipment and materials being poorly maintained and thus susceptible to certain problems? I didn't see much of any mention about the maintenance of a grow room or how to address getting these bugs in the first place. These two elements alone would potentially minimize the risk of re-infestation, reduce the output of pesticides (saving you money) as well as avoiding the potential for over-applying. Given that, why would one only rely on chemical pesticides in veg?

As others have mentioned, there is a wide variety of botanical oils that are proven effective at managing pest problems. IC3, neem, karanja, mint, lavender, etc. If you're serious about having a discussion about IPM, perhaps we can consider other methods besides Avid and Forbid? I don't have anything against either product, per se, just the reliance on one mode of action or one product to treat a problem that can be dealt with in a variety of other ways that avoid this giant elephant in the room called resistance. Just trying to think long term, too many growers living harvest to harvest rely on band-aids to fix giant, gaping wounds in their grow game. No bueno, IMHO.

 

[caredrivensf]

Well, if you're trying to put together an IPM for mites relying on one mode of defense is crazy, no? At the least, it's not true to IPM, it's not some buzzword so lets not use it as such. Avid and Forbid repeatedly in veg, potentially re-applied within the same time frame of existing generations of mites (it can take 7-21 days to reproduce a new generation, you'll have applied Forbid & Avid twice in that time-frame according to your veg routine) and used outside of major infestations is a bad idea. At the very least, it is not a long term, routine solution to the problem of encountering spider or broad mites.



I don't get your comment about "it is difficult not to rely on only biological controls", you're saying it's hard not to use predatory bugs indoors? Yet you aren't using them at all in veg... I don't understand? I think you meant to phrase that differently.

Outdoors there are many predators, sure, but the very lack of them indoors is what allows pests to come in and set up shop in the first place. One way to make it inhospitable is to incorporate predatory bugs that will stomp out an early pest problem before it can dig in. I think you're overlooking the fact that indoors predators go to work quickly because unlike outdoors, where there is a variety of prey, there is only 1 or 2 choices for dinner.



In veg you're using one mode of action. No long term, effective IPM program does that on any level, that's just pest control. IPM is the antithesis of one approach, the idea is tackling the issue from a variety of angles. It isn't simply enough that you're using predators in flower, at that point it's somewhat redundant considering what you've blasted the plants with in veg. It's just somewhat baffling that you acknowledge their efficacy in flower but for some reason avoid using them in veg, where they can actually help stop the problem before it warrants the application of pesticides. Seems a little ass backwards, frankly.

Your veg strategy would be significantly improved as an IPM program if you used biological controls as well as examining the culture of your grow room - what is it that causes you to have mites repeatedly? Is there a common cause or vector? Are equipment and materials being poorly maintained and thus susceptible to certain problems? I didn't see much of any mention about the maintenance of a grow room or how to address getting these bugs in the first place. These two elements alone would potentially minimize the risk of re-infestation, reduce the output of pesticides (saving you money) as well as avoiding the potential for over-applying. Given that, why would one only rely on chemical pesticides in veg?

As others have mentioned, there is a wide variety of botanical oils that are proven effective at managing pest problems. IC3, neem, karanja, mint, lavender, etc. If you're serious about having a discussion about IPM, perhaps we can consider other methods besides Avid and Forbid? I don't have anything against either product, per se, just the reliance on one mode of action or one product to treat a problem that can be dealt with in a variety of other ways that avoid this giant elephant in the room called resistance. Just trying to think long term, too many growers living harvest to harvest rely on band-aids to fix giant, gaping wounds in their grow game. No bueno, IMHO.

I love everything you are saying here. I think a lot of ppl are seeing the spray days in the veg but not all the otr things tht we shd do all other days like "clean" etc. does tht not fotni to an IPM? Lil confused as there is iu so much you can do indoors

 

[caredrivensf]

All i wanna do is come up with a great program with all of you knowledgable ppl tht we can all benefit from. All crops have an IPM so lets make one for cannabis

 

[EclipseFour20]

All i wanna do is come up with a great program with all of you knowledgable ppl tht we can all benefit from. All crops have an IPM so lets make one for cannabis

You will need many IPMs...not just one. Think tic tac toe:

The "tic" columns--
Washington State I-502
Biodynamic
Organic
Semi-organic
Synthetic/Chemical
etc

The "tac" rows--
Outdoor
Indoor-hydroponic
Indoor-soil/ROLS
Indoor-soil-less
Indoor-scrog/sog/netting....and those that don't (like me)
etc

The "toe" intersects--
Veg-early (baby/juveniles)
Veg-mature
Veg-mamas
Flower-early
Flower-mid
Flower-late
etc

That said, many extension programs/colleges/organizations have developed IPM programs for mites--which work great on cannabis...as long as it is in veg. When dealing with a flowering plant--it will be hard to get consensus on one/few plan(s) of action, as each cultivator have their own set of "quirks".

 

[caredrivensf]

You will need many IPMs...not just one. Think tic tac toe:

The "tic" columns--
Washington State I-502
Biodynamic
Organic
Semi-organic
Synthetic/Chemical
etc

The "tac" rows--
Outdoor
Indoor-hydroponic
Indoor-soil/ROLS
Indoor-soil-less
Indoor-scrog/sog/netting....and those that don't (like me)
etc

The "toe" intersects--
Veg-early (baby/juveniles)
Veg-mature
Veg-mamas
Flower-early
Flower-mid
Flower-late
etc
.

I dont understand this sorry

 

[caredrivensf]

I dont understand this sorry

I see what you mean a lil. You mean we need to come up with an organic one, chemical one for soil,for hydro etc etc etc. I dont think it there is much to differentiate for an IPM for spider mites/broad mites.

I do however seeing benefits in breaking it down by Organic, All Natuiral, and Chemical and a combo of all but I cant see breaking it down more than that. Lets get there though!!!

 

[caredrivensf]

Well, if you're trying to put together an IPM for mites relying on one mode of defense is crazy, no? At the least, it's not true to IPM, it's not some buzzword so lets not use it as such. Avid and Forbid repeatedly in veg, potentially re-applied within the same time frame of existing generations of mites (it can take 7-21 days to reproduce a new generation, you'll have applied Forbid & Avid twice in that time-frame according to your veg routine) .

I have not tried this routine yet!! Still want to work on it a bunch. The second treatment of Avid x Forbid I felt too was overboard too and I was under the assumption that the generations were 3 days. so thanks for clearing that up. I can now edit posts so now we can turn my OP into a real blueprint.

As of now I am going to take out the 2nd avid x forbid, and also introduce predatory mites in veg. Wha else do you suggest besides cleaning all the time!! in between spray?

Also I am going to rename my Veg IPM to "Infested VEg IPM" Lets now work on a REAL PREVENTATIVE. I can edit as we get it together!!

 

[siftedunity]

avid and forbid will kill any mite including predatory so its pointless doing both.. if you read the lables for avid and forbid, it recommends a schedule for broad mites.

 

[caredrivensf]

avid and forbid will kill any mite including predatory so its pointless doing both.. if you read the lables for avid and forbid, it recommends a schedule for broad mites.

the predatory mites are a buffer in between sprays thats their only mission when using these chemicals is to hlp as lil bit. the time release makes sure there are new live ones consistantly and sure they will die but not after they scoop of a bunch of eggs and adults real quick!!

Check the link and read about the bags pretty cool!!

http://www.allaboutswirskii.com/introduction-methods/

Slow-release bags


Just as in the case of the predatory mite Amblyseius cucumeris, slow-release bags have also been developed for A. swirskii. This bags produce large numbers of predatory mites over a period of 4-6 weeks and can be simply hung up in the crop using hooks.

Advantages of slow-release bags


The advantages of the slow-release bags are summarised below:

• Predatory mites can also be released preventatively in crops without pollen
• Fast growth of the population of predatory mites- A large number of predatory mites are released into the crop over a period of 4-6 weeks
• Buffering effect: the steady release of predatory mites cushions the negative effects of any chemical residues present. The mites can therefore be released sooner than when using shaker cans.
• If flowering in crops like sweet pepper temporarily ceases, resulting in less pollen available as food, the bags will still continue to produce enough predatory mites under these less favourable conditions.
• Easy to set out and ensures an appropriate and even distribution of the predatory mites throughout the crop.

 

[caredrivensf]

I like to spray about 5oz of sea-stim(quality kelp ), 1 ml pepzyme c, and a .5ml Micro 5000( beinificial bacteria,some nitrates and phosphates. I have spider mites in my gh but the spider mites move very slowly due and do less damage to long-chain, complex carbohydrates their munching on.

It's important to remember that a healthy plant is the best defense, followed by routine sprays. Too much N makes plants delicious to insects so be careful with it.

Another AEA product I've taken a likin to for mite control is Essent shield, a blend of Citronella oil, lemongrass oil,peppermint oil, wintergreen oil, clove oil, castor oil, palm oil. It's strong stuff, strong enough to fry your plants so a little goes a long way. Almost as cost effective as chems, around 30 bucks a gallon.


For those of you spraying chems, make it more worthwhile with indicate 5. It'll ensure your ph is 5, which is important for the pesticide to work it's magic. Also a spreader sticker.

For maintenance, Pyganic at about 10 ml, Nuke em at 30(label's recommendations are way to high, stuff has very low ph), triple action neem 30, and e shield 15ml. Not completely sure how well these products affect broads, but it's safe to say it slows em down and it sure as hell beats suiting up with chems.

So you are saying that your best methods are basically having the most healthy plants possible that you foliar feed

We already have the PH of chemical pesticides noted but was under the impression the range was 5.5-6.5 not 5? Im just going from the Floramite .pdf.

 

[Former Guest]

I was looking up info about safety for when my stuff comes and I found this which reminded me of this thread. it has everything that we have talked about, plus other stuff for safety, application rates, clothing for safety, etc. thought I would share it. it's too long to c/p
http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn74126.html

 

[krunchbubble]

Nuke Em by flying skull will eradicate broad and russet mites. It is food grade, OMRI certified and is so effective there are delays getting it right now because of the problem in Cali with these toxic sucks. I am a distributor in WA State but mostly work with commercial size grows. If you would like more info or are having trouble getting it feel free to contact me at nwfieldconsulting@gmail.com. I can help you find it or get it to you.

Few bullet points....
Everything in Nuke Em can be found in bread.
It works by physically causing cracks in the exoskeleton of the mite thus killing it...resistance is not an issue like any systemic products.
If it touches a mite the mite is dead...3 applications and the eggs dry up and turn a heart-warming orange.
These applications can be successive after the Nuke Em is dried thus you can avoid 3-5 day projects.
This is eradication...not control.
Never, ever, ever use an oil based product on your plants... period. This is old technology in horticulture. (I know, your friend who's been growing for 20 years says it's great to use oil... like I said...old tech!)
Works out to about $1.40 per gallon if you buy the gallon concentrate and dilute to regular strength. Broad and russett mites,root aphids....use double strength.
Will not harm bees, ladybugs, etc... spray it on a mite...dry... and scope it. A friend of mine said he pee'd a little when he saw no live mites after 1 application (not that I wish this for you but it makes the point).
Plants usually start using nutrients at their normal rate within 12-24 hours. Ask someone who's tested the nutrient use rate of their plants with other products and they'll confirm up to 4-6 days of inhibited uptake while the plants adjust.

Azamaz, avid, Floramite, tetrasan, pylon etc are all toxic. Nuke em is food grade...no masks to wear while spraying, no residual benzene rings in your bud, no having to lie about what you used. (Please, save your responses about the labeling on your product saying... "safe to use until harvest". It doesn't mean it is not in your bud... they are just saying it's "safe"... until it isn't. Remember DDT.

Craig
nwfieldconsulting@gmail.com

Again, I supply consulting clients and associates in commercial ops primarily. If your grow shop has it get through them please. If you can't find it I will help you find it or get it to you. I am a retired pharmacist and if I can help you stop using things that are toxic to your plants, you or both it makes me happy.

Nuke em is food grade organic and wipes out mites, molds and mildew...see my other post

Nuke em just killed all my "The White" teens....

 

[Ichabod Crane]

It nuke em you say?

 

[stasis]

avid and forbid will kill any mite including predatory so its pointless doing both.. if you read the lables for avid and forbid, it recommends a schedule for broad mites.

And even so, BMs can still be around..!

Any of you looking for an IPM need to read previous threads. It is ponderous to go thru this Guys...! Why re invent the wheel because there were some negative people in the previous VERY INFORMATIVE thread. It is a controversial subject, seemingly making very talented growers fail. There is emotions tied to financial hiccups..! Spare them. It hurts...

Look at the old thread, "Broad Mites..!" Page 6 has some horribly excellent pics of affected plants that I use when I teach or help people.

 

[krunchbubble]

It nuke em you say?

Ya, it nuked em....

Bullshit, first time I use something organic to combat bugs and it kills the plants...

 

[Ichabod Crane]

Yeh but it is safe for your smokers.