Coco Ebb and Flow?

[smurfin'herb]

ebb n flow in coco works great when you utilize it correctly. Keeping container size small, and transplanting a few times is how i did it. The whole point of ebb and flow is to get that wet dry cycle mulitple times per day. It allows more o2 to the roots. While it is true that its nearly impossible to over water coco, you dont want to keep it wet all the time. You will get better results letting it dry out, sometimes even to the point of wilting a bit as bad as it sounds. With a small enough pot, you are guaranteed to have it dry out 2, maybe 3x per day. I reccommend using perlite in the mix. I always put pantyhose over my drainfitting to block coco particles.
Its has its pros and cons. Ebb n flow uses more water than you actually need per week for any given crop. This is why i have gone to top feed systems. However Ebb n flow offers you more lieninency with salt buildup, and more uniform dispersal of nutrients throughout the root zone. Recirculating reservoirs are more of challenge to maintain, but you can better learn whats going on with your plants by taking reservoir readings. Once you dial it in over time its not too bad. Drain to wasted is less water, less hassle, and damn near fullproof. Thats what i run these days, and im getting my 1g/watt or more no problemo.

 

[Chevy cHaze]

Chevy cHaze - I like that you're also flood&drain type was looking for someone to give more info...
I'm also f&d guy but have a few Q for you, since I never done this with coco. you said you use dripclean-what dosage and every feed? do you add any zyme?(you resuse coco?) do you flush by flooding or hand-flush? pot size and feeding frequency?
I know there's lot of Q but even after years and years I don't know everything
thanks a lot!

jbtito

Hey Jbtito,
I use 1ml Driplean per 10L of water.
Right now there are roughly 100L in the reservoir and it gets pumped up to flood the table once a day for 10min. I add the dripclean in the beginning when I mix the nutes in the reservoir.
I use 1gal/3,8L fabric pots and a coco/perlite mix.
My coco is reused and has been in the same pots for a while...used it with blumats before, now in E&F, same pots same coco ;-)

Right now I hand flush, when I want to stop feeding the plants I put them on upside down plastic pots on the flood table and flush them good with PHd tap water. this way they don't get flooded with nutes during flood. The extra water dilutes the nute solution in the res, but that's not a bad thing, a little less concentrated nute solution is nothing to worry about in this setup.
When I have to top up the res, I'm adding nutes more back to the system.


I have to say I got the slime a bit more than a week ago ! NASTY!
But a few drops of spinosad killed it off proper. It says on the bottle "extremely poisonous for a water organisms" .
Check, true.
The slime dies overnight and it floats to the top of the reservoir where you can collect and dispose.
To keep the res in check after this cleanup, I added a little bit of sodium hypochlorite aka bleach( 3,8% @ 40ml/100L. So far so good, no slime and everything looks fresh.

Funny with the spinosad...was just an idea but worked really well on the slime !!The dose was super low too, so no worries... 5 drops for app. 100L...
Anyone an idea if the spinosad can become systemic through feeding it to the roots with the nutes?

all the best,

cc

 

[jbtito]

smurfin'herb thanks dude. I have drippers too but I don't want to use them since my last fuckup with clooging and destroying half of my crop(it's hard to see the problem soon since the room is big and full of plants) but will have them ready for regular flushes. the ony concern about top feed I have is that plants "shit and piss" on top and you wouldnt mix your food with your feeces so why should I do that with my babies
Chevy cHaze thank you for the input. I use 10l pots that are raised by pvc pipe 5cm from ground but I still flood to half of my pot(15-20cm) since bigger pots than yours, I'll go with every 3days first and maybe come down to daily in late flower. do you use zyme every time or just with final flush?
peace
jbtito
p.s. 1gal = 3,785L, 1 inch = 2,54cm

 

[Chevy cHaze]

ebb n flow in coco works great when you utilize it correctly. Keeping container size small, and transplanting a few times is how i did it. The whole point of ebb and flow is to get that wet dry cycle mulitple times per day. It allows more o2 to the roots. While it is true that its nearly impossible to over water coco, you dont want to keep it wet all the time. You will get better results letting it dry out, sometimes even to the point of wilting a bit as bad as it sounds. With a small enough pot, you are guaranteed to have it dry out 2, maybe 3x per day. I reccommend using perlite in the mix. I always put pantyhose over my drainfitting to block coco particles.
Its has its pros and cons. Ebb n flow uses more water than you actually need per week for any given crop. This is why i have gone to top feed systems. However Ebb n flow offers you more lieninency with salt buildup, and more uniform dispersal of nutrients throughout the root zone. Recirculating reservoirs are more of challenge to maintain, but you can better learn whats going on with your plants by taking reservoir readings. Once you dial it in over time its not too bad. Drain to wasted is less water, less hassle, and damn near fullproof. Thats what i run these days, and im getting my 1g/watt or more no problemo.

Hey SMurfin'Herb,
I feel you about the water usage...
I'm thinking about adding a few lines and spikes to my system, turning it into a top fed system. I could irrigate my plants with 50L in the rez easily...
To proper flood them I need 100L in the res and that's a lot of nutes too...
also evaporation is quite big I feel. This adds to the RH in an unwanted way...
But reg. the intervals... when I drench my pots they are still full ywet the next day.. no way they would dry out in less than let's say two days time... so, not sure about multiple feeds per day... then again it doesn't matter if they're still wet, as long as there's enough oxygen in the rootzone,eh ?

cc

 

[Chevy cHaze]

smurfin'herb thanks dude. I have drippers too but I don't want to use them since my last fuckup with clooging and destroying half of my crop(it's hard to see the problem soon since the room is big and full of plants) but will have them ready for regular flushes. the ony concern about top feed I have is that plants "shit and piss" on top and you wouldnt mix your food with your feeces so why should I do that with my babies
Chevy cHaze thank you for the input. I use 10l pots that are raised by pvc pipe 5cm from ground but I still flood to half of my pot(15-20cm) since bigger pots than yours, I'll go with every 3days first and maybe come down to daily in late flower. do you use zyme every time or just with final flush?
peace
jbtito
p.s. 1gal = 3,785L, 1 inch = 2,54cm

Hey Jbtito,
ok ok... a gallon is not 3,8L but 3,785L, you don't have to get psychotic about it !!!
;-)
Hahaha ok so much for that, sorry I forgot to write you about the enzymes...
I use hesi powerzyme mixed with my nutes at all times. So the plants get it with every feeding.
but it's mainly there to help break down the organic matter aka old roots in my pots, as I don't clean the coco after runs. I just take out the main taproot with the stem , fill up the hole with a little coco/perlite mix and voila- ready for the next plant.
I flush my plants well 2 weeks before harvest, and cehck the runoff PPMs, so I make sure the coco is not too "hot" for new seedlings or cuttings.

 

[jbtito]

Hey Jbtito,
ok ok... a gallon is not 3,8L but 3,785L, you don't have to get psychotic about it !!!
;-)
Hahaha ok so much for that, sorry I forgot to write you about the enzymes...
I use hesi powerzyme mixed with my nutes at all times. So the plants get it with every feeding.
but it's mainly there to help break down the organic matter aka old roots in my pots, as I don't clean the coco after runs. I just take out the main taproot with the stem , fill up the hole with a little coco/perlite mix and voila- ready for the next plant.
I flush my plants well 2 weeks before harvest, and cehck the runoff PPMs, so I make sure the coco is not too "hot" for new seedlings or cuttings.

hahaha I like to be exact joke...I wrote that just because I had many problems with people going crazy over metric vs. imperial. You are obviously not one of them
I did many grows but never switched to coco. I ran many sites with RW/mapito on f&d and tried almost all nutes available. Hesi is good but lately I use zyme made for ponds and this stuff is great It's like 10% € of cheapest zyme and works perfect. Just didn't know about the use in coco... thanks for clearing that
Glad to see people that still go with f&d, I just hate all those drip lines and shit...
peace
jbtito

 

[CoCoColaClassic]

There's a few problems with recirculating in coco i my experience and knowledge.

1. Coco releases potassium causing a net increase in potassium ...affect your nutrient balance in the rez.

2. The second is the timing & automation. Every week of development requires a different frequency of feeding in coco. You may consider smaller pot sized so the roots fully collonize sooner at which point they'll require daily water sooner. Daily watering is easier to automate with cheap timers.

3. the degree of saturation that occurs with flooding. Maybe have you bulk-head real low so they only get a layer of water which the coco will easily wick.

I can tell you from experience, hydroton is a better way to go for ebb & flow/recirculating. Just wash and ph your hydroton before and after use.

 

[jbtito]

There's a few problems with recirculating in coco i my experience and knowledge.

1. Coco releases potassium causing a net increase in potassium ...affect your nutrient balance in the rez.

2. The second is the timing & automation. Every week of development requires a different frequency of feeding in coco. You may consider smaller pot sized so the roots fully collonize sooner at which point they'll require daily water sooner. Daily watering is easier to automate with cheap timers.

3. the degree of saturation that occurs with flooding. Maybe have you bulk-head real low so they only get a layer of water which the coco will easily wick.

I can tell you from experience, hydroton is a better way to go for ebb & flow/recirculating. Just wash and ph your hydroton before and after use.

I don't know about #1, thanks for that, but #2: IME for first week I flood just once, second week maybe twice but from that point no more than every 2-3 days(2 in last weeks) I believe that by flooding from bellow, you give plants more natural approach and make sure that the whole pot is saturated(not to the top). also while water is draining out it sucks air in from the top. also like I said before, plant has their own metabolism as-well. they piss and shit on top, away from healthy root system. that's why even with completely dry top layer you still can see something that wasn't there when you put the plant in. I check every day(sometimes even 2days) and until the pot is somewhat 10-15% "wet" from underneath, I flood. but I haven't seen a 10L pot go completely dry in 1 day, especially with 50% of RW in it(did the same mix with hydroton-50:50-and it was wet at least a day) but it still transfers so much air trough it it's just amazing, even when totally wet.and that leads to your #3... I hate hydroton as much as drippers sorry... to me it's just stupid to water few times a day. I know it's not a good comparison but, with your mobile phone... charge it every time the battery drops just a little or by half and your'll ruin the battery. wait till it goes almost to 0 and then charge it to the full. engineer/electrician speaking. just like people, I saw somewhere that somebody wrote that you're supposed to treat your plants like body-builders(the diet or smth) with small intakes 5-8 times a day...well, have you ever seen a body-builder. do they look healthy to you? to me they don't at all. I rather go with the working class hero diet - wake up, work a lot, eat*, work some more, come home, eat, fuck your wife(work) and go to sleep. *something from yesterday or a sandwich but usually coffe+cig/joint+some meat
look, I don't want to be smart or provocative but, I have decided on a system a loong ago. and the only thing that's gonna change is the medium. that and I don't want full automatic system. I want to water them myself due to few things- my presence makes them happy, in that time(2-3h in growroom) I induce a lot of CO2 and they oxygenate me and also I can see every time how they are doing. I don't use a table I have a bed on the ground isolated with styrofoam so I can't go auto. also with that I gain at least 30-50cm, which in indoor cultivation is like a hectare of land outdoor my2€
peace
jbtito

 

[CoCoColaClassic]

If you're near it daily, you can totally pull it off. I still think the potassium accumulations is an imperfection in your technique.

I have traditionally grown in 3 gallon pots, canna coco, 9 plants per 1000 or 600...and at some point--maybe it was only the last week of flower-- they needed water daily. Now-a-days, if I'm growing, I don't live near, so I use hydroton. Coco is still my favorite when it come to performance, but I've always attributed that performance to each feading being a perfectly balance blend of nutes; whereas, with recirculating, they're losing their balance over the course of days - weeks. Eitherway, I am still looking forward to your findings. It seems you're in-tune enough to make it work.

 

[jbtito]

so, how to get rid of the potassium accumulations? any suggestions?
I don't grow near where I live either but just because of constant knowing what EC and PH my plants get I went with f&d.
Yeah I don't like to be a smart-ass on forums but I learned everything from personal experience. When it comes to growing I really like to test out every possibility to have the really best outcome. So far I have heard a lot good things about coco and wanted to switch but I just love RW so I went with 5':50 mix and we'll see.
Definitely I will post some photos later in the grow, although that's not my thing since it's still highly illegal where I live. Maybe under different name but you'll know it's mine
keep growing my friend and thanks for all the info.
peace
jbtito

 

[CoCoColaClassic]

Changing your rez more frequently could combat the potassium accumulations. Still, the moisture level problem is going to be a dance.

I've tried drippers on coco and ebb&flow and always got inferior results to me going in there and hand water each one when it wanted water (ie lost 75% of it's water weight). I really do believe you can pull this off with time and experimentation, but I feel you're setting yourself up for more head-aches. Maybe look for a detailed blog with start to finish results where they worked through all the potential pitfalls of ebb & flow in coco.

Canna's website and publications explicitly suggest not doing this. The root rot and infierior results are from experience, my knowledge on the potassium release is discussed by canna nutrient scientist and in CannaTalks from time-to-time.

 

[CoCoColaClassic]

I hope I'm not coming across as antagonistic, I just cringe because I've wanted to automate coco so many times and it's hard. It just seems each plant drank at different levels.

 

[resinryder]

2 gallon smart pots filled with 60%coir/40%chips or perlite(depends on whats available). Fed 2 times a day in veg 3 times a day in bloom Ebb & Flow. No nute ec/ppm swing, ph stays stable. Drinks 3-4 gallons/day. Flush with 15ml clearx once per month. Might possibly avoid the monthly flush if using Drip Clean
Easypeasy!!!

 

[jbtito]

[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=56211&pictureid=1311694&thumb=1]View Image[/url] [URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=54543&pictureid=1273021&thumb=1]View Image[/url] [URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=52679&pictureid=1229120&thumb=1]View Image[/url] [URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=41323&pictureid=1015131&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

2 gallon smart pots filled with 60%coir/40%chips or perlite(depends on whats available). Fed 2 times a day in veg 3 times a day in bloom Ebb & Flow. No nute ec/ppm swing, ph stays stable. Drinks 3-4 gallons/day. Flush with 15ml clearx once per month. Might possibly avoid the monthly flush if using Drip Clean
Easypeasy!!!

my man! that's what I'm talking about
what strain is that? massive yield I assume what lamps?

cocacola: there is no good grow blog on this issue thats why I ask here... I do use zyme so root rot doesn't bother me. I even reused soil once by applying zyme.
but I'm with you on handwater 100%. but I'll do that when and if I'll be able to grow legally with a lot of time and no other issues
peace
jbtito

 

[resinryder]

my man! that's what I'm talking about
what strain is that? massive yield I assume what lamps?

cocacola: there is no good grow blog on this issue thats why I ask here... I do use zyme so root rot doesn't bother me. I even reused soil once by applying zyme.
but I'm with you on handwater 100%. but I'll do that when and if I'll be able to grow legally with a lot of time and no other issues
peace
jbtito

Not sure what strains. Just posted some random grow shots to show results. 1K HPS Hortilux Eye bulb.