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I just started my first Micro grow need help!
- Thread starter newkid
- Start date
BigBozat
Member
Turns out your MYKE's potting soil is a product from Premiere Tech's (the folks who make Pro-Mix) biotech subsidiary... contains (in descending order) Canadian sphagnum peat moss, perlite and limestone, as well as mycorrhizal fungi (mostly G. intadices)... it comes pH balanced from the outset (generally in the range of 6.3~6.8), so you don't need to frack w/ the pH unless/until you over-amend (or fertilize) w/ ingredients that substantially alter the pH...
All in all, not bad...
The additional perlite you added provides some additional aeration (good) and will tend to mitigate some of the compaction that occurs with peat (good)... I would have further amended with
- EWC (earthworm castings; up to 20%),
- humus (e.g., Ancient Forest Alaska Humus)
- builder's sand (drainage/texture; 25% of the total mix),
- maybe some coco coir (up to 25%),
- vermiculite (additional aeration & water-holding, plus buffers soil/holds cations; ratio of 3 perlite -to- 1 vermic),
- biochar/horticultural charcoal (10% max)
- Greensand (aka glauconite) (1/2 cup per cu ft of soil mix)
- AZOMITE (1/4 cup per cu ft)
- Fulvic/Humic acids fr. Leonardite (as directed (depends on vendor))
If/when you next transplant to larger containers, consider the above... in addition, when the plants are ready to veg aggressively, you'll need to add ferts/nutes, so also amend with some cobination of:
- Alfalfa meal
- Kelp meal
- Crab meal
- Fish bone meal
- Soybean meal
- High-N Bat/bird guanos
- Composted manure
- Rock dusts/powders
Transplant again a week or two before flowering stage, and swap out the High-N guanos for High-P version, and add double up on the rock dust/powder (esp soft rock phosphate powder)...
You're likely gonna need to periodically supplement w/ CalMag (for Cal deficiency, plus it boosts Mag... if Mag becomes the major deficiency use horticultural Epsom salt)... but that can wait until a Cal or Mag deficiency shows up...
newkid
Member
Thanks a lot Bozat really clears things up and gives me a good list to go round up so Ill be ready for next transplant. This Thursday will be 3 weeks since transplant from MG soil, how much longer should I veg for; 5-7 more weeks? When can I expect excessive veg around 2-3 weeks from now right?
BigBozat
Member
Hmmm..
Hmmm..
Was trying to get my head around all the other info put out earlier in this thread b4 trying to answer your Qs at this point...
First, I'll give ya my short answers (sort of) to your immediate Qs, then if I have time (I'm at work right now) circle back around with thoughts about everything else that's been laid out to date...
How much longer to veg?
That's a loaded Q & difficult to answer properly/cautiously... more pics to see how the plants are doing at this point would help.
I saw from your ealier post that the plants are 'Bing Bang' (?) = an NL x El Nino hybrid (actually, I think it's s'posed to be 'Big Bang', which is a Skunk x NL x El Nino cross from Green House Seeds @ Amsterdam, but whatever)... here's a link that may help give ya some insight to your plant's particular genetics & growth behavior: http://en.**********.eu/strain-info/Big_Bang/Green_House_Seeds/
(well, sh!t, that didn't work... doesn't seem to want to allow me to embed that link... fwiw, the ********** in the above link is supposed to be 'seed' 'finder' < all one word... had to separate into two words, as the system kept translating it to asterisks)
... If you click into the full user-generated plant profile, and then click into the 'Average Indoor Review', it'll give you a summary of how these genetics have performed indoors for other growers...
From what I can see, this strain (on average) is vegged and then put into flowering @ 34 cm plant height (a lil over a foot tall; thereafter, expect them to stretch during flower to reach 90 cm or so)...
So, where are yours? How much vertical growth have you seen in the 3+ weeks? I suspect with the rescue in progress it'll prolly take twice as long to recoup & veg as normal... even then, if the damage done to date stunts 'em, they may not reach 34 cm before they are mature enough to start pre-flowering... given all the stress & less than ideal conditions your plants have been thru, instead of adhering to some formulaic time frame, you're gonna have to watch & see what the plants are telling you... I know, not as clear/helpful as you might like, but nothing's simple/easy when you're first starting out (esp if you're starting with a rescue operation)...
As an aside:
From the 'seed' 'finder' grow reports, this strain doesn't like the hi temps... also, fem'd seeds of this strain can tend towards hermies (and given all the strees the plants have been thru, wouldn't surprise me)... If the heat from running all the bulbs all day long is too much to keep temps in the desired range (low~mid 70s), then either try to control your ambient room temps with a small portable/window-style A/C unit (I got a bunch at Walmart for like $60 a pop) or consider using a modified Gas Lantern Routine (GLR) instead of running the lights 24 hrs a day/7 days a week (e.g., try 12 on/10 off/2 on again, repeat... or 14/8/2, repeat... the two hours of light in the middle of the dark cycle destroys the signal that would otherwise tell the plant that it's time to flower... that way you get less heat build up, and if you use simple cheap light timers, you could run your lights during night hours, when it should be as hot as day fours)
"When can I expect excessive veg around 2-3 weeks from now right?"
See above... no easy/formulaic answers... your guess might be as good as any other (then again, it might take twice that long depending on the plants' abilities to recover)...
How are your roots doing? Are any tips poking out of the holes in the cups yet? Has the width of the plant reached/exceeded the diameter of the cups yet? (generally, the root mass is roughly the same [a lil bigger] width as the plant canopy)
Generally what you're looking for at this point is for the palnts to establish solid root systems to support the coming veg growth. I considered suggesting using your rooting compound/liquid (IBA, the major active ingredient, is an auxin... when auxins > cytokinins, adventitious root branching is promoted)... but then I see there's fungicide in it, too, so would harm the mycorrhizal herd in the Myke's potting soil...
Look for an alternative that features an auxin (usu. IBA) but doesn't have fungicide... also consider additional mycos (e.g., Great White or similar) and/or maybe something like Fox Farm's Bush Doctor Boomerang (or Kangaroots or Microbe Brew)...
oops, gotta go... didn't have time to circle back, but will try to later this eve...
Hmmm..
Was trying to get my head around all the other info put out earlier in this thread b4 trying to answer your Qs at this point...
First, I'll give ya my short answers (sort of) to your immediate Qs, then if I have time (I'm at work right now) circle back around with thoughts about everything else that's been laid out to date...
How much longer to veg?
That's a loaded Q & difficult to answer properly/cautiously... more pics to see how the plants are doing at this point would help.
I saw from your ealier post that the plants are 'Bing Bang' (?) = an NL x El Nino hybrid (actually, I think it's s'posed to be 'Big Bang', which is a Skunk x NL x El Nino cross from Green House Seeds @ Amsterdam, but whatever)... here's a link that may help give ya some insight to your plant's particular genetics & growth behavior: http://en.**********.eu/strain-info/Big_Bang/Green_House_Seeds/
(well, sh!t, that didn't work... doesn't seem to want to allow me to embed that link... fwiw, the ********** in the above link is supposed to be 'seed' 'finder' < all one word... had to separate into two words, as the system kept translating it to asterisks)
... If you click into the full user-generated plant profile, and then click into the 'Average Indoor Review', it'll give you a summary of how these genetics have performed indoors for other growers...
From what I can see, this strain (on average) is vegged and then put into flowering @ 34 cm plant height (a lil over a foot tall; thereafter, expect them to stretch during flower to reach 90 cm or so)...
So, where are yours? How much vertical growth have you seen in the 3+ weeks? I suspect with the rescue in progress it'll prolly take twice as long to recoup & veg as normal... even then, if the damage done to date stunts 'em, they may not reach 34 cm before they are mature enough to start pre-flowering... given all the stress & less than ideal conditions your plants have been thru, instead of adhering to some formulaic time frame, you're gonna have to watch & see what the plants are telling you... I know, not as clear/helpful as you might like, but nothing's simple/easy when you're first starting out (esp if you're starting with a rescue operation)...
As an aside:
From the 'seed' 'finder' grow reports, this strain doesn't like the hi temps... also, fem'd seeds of this strain can tend towards hermies (and given all the strees the plants have been thru, wouldn't surprise me)... If the heat from running all the bulbs all day long is too much to keep temps in the desired range (low~mid 70s), then either try to control your ambient room temps with a small portable/window-style A/C unit (I got a bunch at Walmart for like $60 a pop) or consider using a modified Gas Lantern Routine (GLR) instead of running the lights 24 hrs a day/7 days a week (e.g., try 12 on/10 off/2 on again, repeat... or 14/8/2, repeat... the two hours of light in the middle of the dark cycle destroys the signal that would otherwise tell the plant that it's time to flower... that way you get less heat build up, and if you use simple cheap light timers, you could run your lights during night hours, when it should be as hot as day fours)
"When can I expect excessive veg around 2-3 weeks from now right?"
See above... no easy/formulaic answers... your guess might be as good as any other (then again, it might take twice that long depending on the plants' abilities to recover)...
How are your roots doing? Are any tips poking out of the holes in the cups yet? Has the width of the plant reached/exceeded the diameter of the cups yet? (generally, the root mass is roughly the same [a lil bigger] width as the plant canopy)
Generally what you're looking for at this point is for the palnts to establish solid root systems to support the coming veg growth. I considered suggesting using your rooting compound/liquid (IBA, the major active ingredient, is an auxin... when auxins > cytokinins, adventitious root branching is promoted)... but then I see there's fungicide in it, too, so would harm the mycorrhizal herd in the Myke's potting soil...
Look for an alternative that features an auxin (usu. IBA) but doesn't have fungicide... also consider additional mycos (e.g., Great White or similar) and/or maybe something like Fox Farm's Bush Doctor Boomerang (or Kangaroots or Microbe Brew)...
oops, gotta go... didn't have time to circle back, but will try to later this eve...
BigBozat
Member
Good... then it's time to transplant soon to larger containers (although the 3 gal pots you mentioned earlier are too big... have you got, e.g., 1 gal pots?)
newkid
Member
yes I have 1 gallon pots. I'll keep the temps in low 70s from now on and humidity 60-65 when I get humidifier, current humidifier wont get space above 50.
They are now 10 cm tall, they were less than 5 cm when I got them. I am going to have to wait until pay day to go and get all the amends from the nursery... can't really do online ordering ATM. Can't really spend more than 150-200 on this project at the moment but I plan on building as time and experience come.
So this weekend I will be able to try and get the majority of that first list. To be ready for switch to 1 gallons. Then I will focus on being ready for teas/liquid nutes for excessive veg and flowering. I should be able to keep them in 1 gallons until excessive veg correct, and no need to feed until that point?
Thanks again really helpful stuff.
PEACE
They are now 10 cm tall, they were less than 5 cm when I got them. I am going to have to wait until pay day to go and get all the amends from the nursery... can't really do online ordering ATM. Can't really spend more than 150-200 on this project at the moment but I plan on building as time and experience come.
So this weekend I will be able to try and get the majority of that first list. To be ready for switch to 1 gallons. Then I will focus on being ready for teas/liquid nutes for excessive veg and flowering. I should be able to keep them in 1 gallons until excessive veg correct, and no need to feed until that point?
Thanks again really helpful stuff.
PEACE
BigBozat
Member
I would give 'em a little rest after transplant before feeding nutes to give 'em time to adjust to their new home... but a couple weeks seems a bit long... maybe a week.
Depends on if you're gonna amend the target soil that they're being transplanted into with ferts (alfalfa meal, kelp meal, crab meal, etc... actually one of the earlier commenters suggested Espoma's Plant-tone, which has a number of meals pre-mixed, and is organic, so I second the motion!)...
If you're not amending target/transplant soil with xtra ferts, then start teas from the get go... otherwise, amend the target soil with your desired ferts (again, Plant-tone would make things a bit easier on ya here), but layer in the ferts with a buffer layer of un-amended soil so that the root ball isn't sitting on top of (or surrounded by) lots o' hot ferts, and then just water (if your tap water has chloramine, use RO or distilled) for the first week...
The fewer transplants, the better...
More transplants means more stress/shock, negative impacts on growth, quality & yield, and higher risk of causing hermies...
I am lazy, so I've never transplanted more than 3 times, and usually aim to only do it twice (from 16 oz. cups to 1~2 gal pots in early seedling, then to 3~5 gal pots in mid~late veg... current plant size & expected growth characteristics determine exactly which size pots I end up in)...
I also tend to do ScroGs, and so tend to try to fit in more smaller pots for my sq footage, rather than fewer, larger pots (the smaller container size restricts the roots, which helps keep the height down)
I'd go to 1 gal pots now from your cups... 2 gal max...
Then, depending on how fast veg growth is from there, I'd move into 2/3/5 gal pots as needed as you move thru veg... transplant into final 3 ~ 5 gal pots at least a week b4 switching light cycle to force flowering... no transplants once you start flowering...
If growth is fast enough, you may only have to do one more transplant (and so would target the larger final pot size)... let the plant be your guide...
Liquid Nutes?
I don't normally normally rec liq nutes (as there are few, if any, that are really organic or otherwise have issues I don't want to deal with)... and, despite my inherent laziness, I prefer to brew my AACTs & SSTs...
But, since I doubt you're really planning to recycle & build your soil over time, at least this time around, and since this is really more about the rescue mission than it is about the purity of your organics, then I'll take a whack at it:
Advanced Nutrients has a line up they call their root mass expanders tribe which might really help in this case... and of course AN has a plethora of base nutes, additives, supplements and all sorts of things... the downside is expense (all things AN-related are relatively expensive) and complexity (figuring out all the moving parts to AN's various offerings is a real chore)...
For simplicity's sake, maybe either Earth Juice's line up (esp including their supplements, like Liquid Karma, Catalyst, MicroBlast + the Hi-Brix molasses), or General Organics' GoBox... The latter is basically a sampler kit that has one of everything at an affordable $45~$50 total price... it has more than enough product to get you thru your initial microgrow, but doesn't doesn't require you to waste a bunch of $$$ if you don't like it longer term...
Either way, start at 1/4 ~ 1/2 strength of the recommended amounts that they indicate on their feeding schedules, and work your way up...
cheers Ill post some updated pics in next couple days.
BigBozat
Member
Just Curious
Just Curious
Wondering whether you're still seeing purpling on the stems/stalk?
In early seedlings, not so concerning, as the plants are just getting their feet under 'em & purpling happens & tends to clear up as they get more established... but later on purple stems (particularly for strains that don't have purple in their genetics) can be an indicator of P deficiency... and I haven't seen anything about Big Bang that suggests it has purple coloration in its genetics (purple tends to be a rarely-expressed recessive trait)
[Frankly, I think P def is far more widespread than most folks think, but I digress...]
Anyhoo, just thought you might want to keep an eye on that...
If it continues, and esp if you notice any other negative growth/plant health impacts, my prior recommendation in re: rock dusts/powders/soft rock phosphate is doubly relevant (as are, eg, bone meals, hi-P guanos... fwiw, Espoma Plant-tone has bone meal in it [along w/ a bunch of other good stuff])...
Just Curious
Wondering whether you're still seeing purpling on the stems/stalk?
In early seedlings, not so concerning, as the plants are just getting their feet under 'em & purpling happens & tends to clear up as they get more established... but later on purple stems (particularly for strains that don't have purple in their genetics) can be an indicator of P deficiency... and I haven't seen anything about Big Bang that suggests it has purple coloration in its genetics (purple tends to be a rarely-expressed recessive trait)
[Frankly, I think P def is far more widespread than most folks think, but I digress...]
Anyhoo, just thought you might want to keep an eye on that...
If it continues, and esp if you notice any other negative growth/plant health impacts, my prior recommendation in re: rock dusts/powders/soft rock phosphate is doubly relevant (as are, eg, bone meals, hi-P guanos... fwiw, Espoma Plant-tone has bone meal in it [along w/ a bunch of other good stuff])...
BigBozat
Member
BigBozat
Member
What did u want to know?
What did u want to know?
What do u want to know about alfalfa meal...?
In case u hadn't already figured it out, I LOVE alfalfa meal... beyond the std macronutes (NPK et al) & a bunch of trace nutes, it provides triacontanol, which promotes growth (independent of photosynthesis).
Only downsides IMO are: sometimes can have alf seeds in it (Espoma good on this); whether the source material was a GMO (alfalfa & soybean are two of the most frequent targets of Monsanto GMOing); and/or whether source was grown using pesticides/herbicides.
#2 on my fav list is kelp meal
(also, check out something called KelPak, which uses a different kind of kelp than most other kelp meal/liquid kelp products (google it)
What did u want to know?
What do u want to know about alfalfa meal...?
In case u hadn't already figured it out, I LOVE alfalfa meal... beyond the std macronutes (NPK et al) & a bunch of trace nutes, it provides triacontanol, which promotes growth (independent of photosynthesis).
Only downsides IMO are: sometimes can have alf seeds in it (Espoma good on this); whether the source material was a GMO (alfalfa & soybean are two of the most frequent targets of Monsanto GMOing); and/or whether source was grown using pesticides/herbicides.
#2 on my fav list is kelp meal
(also, check out something called KelPak, which uses a different kind of kelp than most other kelp meal/liquid kelp products (google it)
newkid
Member
yah I don't agree with GMOS on mass scale! I was reading into alfalfa and kelp read lots of good stuff. Also Azos (azomite) sounds promising/exciting.
No purple on new growth. I believe the cause of the light green discolouration and purp stems was caused by the chemically chelated perlite I left at very bottom of cup the roots reached it. I transplanted them into other cups and will put them in 1 g pots once they get a chance to recover.
Now this list is badass lol, that being said are there certain items I should focus in on? My budget at this point is 200 over next couple months (nutes, bubbler, flower lights, humidifier).
It is ok to amend and then leave it sitting for an extended period of time right? just thinking convenience in the future.
No purple on new growth. I believe the cause of the light green discolouration and purp stems was caused by the chemically chelated perlite I left at very bottom of cup the roots reached it. I transplanted them into other cups and will put them in 1 g pots once they get a chance to recover.
Now this list is badass lol, that being said are there certain items I should focus in on? My budget at this point is 200 over next couple months (nutes, bubbler, flower lights, humidifier).
It is ok to amend and then leave it sitting for an extended period of time right? just thinking convenience in the future.
BigBozat
Member
yah I don't agree with GMOS on mass scale! I was reading into alfalfa and kelp read lots of good stuff. Also Azos (azomite) sounds promising/exciting.
No purple on new growth. I believe the cause of the light green discolouration and purp stems was caused by the chemically chelated perlite I left at very bottom of cup the roots reached it. I transplanted them into other cups and will put them in 1 g pots once they get a chance to recover.
Now this list is badass lol, that being said are there certain items I should focus in on? My budget at this point is 200 over next couple months (nutes, bubbler, flower lights, humidifier).
It is ok to amend and then leave it sitting for an extended period of time right? just thinking convenience in the future.
AZOMITE great stuff! Yes, yes, yes!
Greensand aka Glauconite (Espoma sells, among others) not far behind...
Nor are your std rock dusts/powders/soft rock phosphates... as much as AZOMITE covers tons of trace mins, it doesn't provide P, and in my experience most soils are P-deficient...
Good news re: purpling clearing up... seems your rescue mission has been largely successful... keep it up...
The coco coir, sand, vermiculite & biochar/hort charcoal are all optional... 'tho I hate admitting it... each contribute something I aim for in my soil mixes (structure, texture, etc.), but they really aren't essential, esp on budget constraints...
In terms of focusing on the most important components?
Prolly the EWC + Humus (the latter esp if you're not going to supplement w/ humic/fulvic acids... humic/fulvic products can be expensive, at least relative to some of the bulk amendments items)...
If you can't get the Ancient Forest, per se, look into mushroom compost and/or composted cow manure as replacement sources of humic organic matter... mushroom compost is sometimes shunned out of concern for residual contaminants possibly left over from the mushroom farming/processing, and cow manure compost may have concerns re: GMO in the dairy cows' feedstock (and/or biohormones used on the herd), but your nursery should be able to give you insight on the sources/quality of any mush/manue composts they offer...
While they're not on the orig list (which was aimed at soil for early seedling, not veg/aggressive veg), at this point you'll needto amend in fertilizers/nutes now, too... as pev discussed, Espoma Plant-tone seems like a very good idea for simplicity's sake... may want to further supplement with hi-N bat guano, too, but that's not entirely essential since you can instead get N in via teas & liquid nutes...
Yes, it's absolutely OK to amend & let sit for a while to 'cook'... in fact, it's highly recommended... especially with ferts amended in... and even more especially if additional mycorrhizal fungi and/or rhizobacteria are amended in (need time to acclimate & start working)... gives time to the soil microbes to break down minerals & otherwise 'buffer' the soil... I generally let mine rest for 4+ weeks before planting anything in it (2 or 3 weeks is OK, just not as much)...
BigBozat
Member
Oh, and now that I think of it... If you really want to dig into soil-building, check out a couple of books by Jeff Loewenfells, "Teaming With Microbes" and "Teaming With Nutrients" (Amazon, if not locally available in bookstore or library)... easy reads, excellent information, great overview of the soil food web & the role of soil (and teas/tea-making)...
And,of course, as you've already discovered, many threads around here...
And,of course, as you've already discovered, many threads around here...
newkid
Member
Also thinking about topping or fimming. I know this is advance technique (and they been through some stress) but it would increase yield big time if I keep up with nutes from now on. I don't think I will try screen this time around just don't have the area step up properly for it yet.
BigBozat
Member
For Big Bang, may not be such a great idea... 'seed' 'finder' data suggests the strain does not respond well to [heavy] pruning {which is exactly what topping/fimming is}... might want to confirm/get second opinion from someone who's grown & fimmed/topped the strain before (more than once, so they have a basis for comparison as to whether the response is + or -
newkid
Member
Thanks man great advice I have read and watched videos that quote teaming with microbes, Great information and gave me some understanding of teas. (anaerobic vs aerobic bacteria).
So far my list is alfalfa meal, kelp meal, EWC, humus or substitute(organic mushroom or manure compost which i can use in teas as well), coco coir, sand, green sand, azomite for transplant and a rooting agent plus espoma plant bloom or similar product should do me through veg for 1/3 gallons. I can use that list to brew teas as well; is it ok to use something like plant bloom if for some reason I don't have time to make a tea one week?
Than I can ammend with some higher P stuff for flower in 5 g pots. To be ready for flower and slightly change my teas to promote flower stage(high P mag cal etc).
hows that sound??
So far my list is alfalfa meal, kelp meal, EWC, humus or substitute(organic mushroom or manure compost which i can use in teas as well), coco coir, sand, green sand, azomite for transplant and a rooting agent plus espoma plant bloom or similar product should do me through veg for 1/3 gallons. I can use that list to brew teas as well; is it ok to use something like plant bloom if for some reason I don't have time to make a tea one week?
Than I can ammend with some higher P stuff for flower in 5 g pots. To be ready for flower and slightly change my teas to promote flower stage(high P mag cal etc).
hows that sound??
