Miraculous Meds
Well-known member
So is this an s1 selfed back or a f1 back crossed 3 times?
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Turning clone only strains into seed strains, why not?
- Thread starter Space Toker
- Start date
So is this an s1 selfed back or a f1 back crossed 3 times?
St. Phatty
Active member
Sometimes simple patience will yield a natural feminized seed. But only a few. Referring to the week-8 nanners that might show up in a 9 week grow.
But these natural fem seeds do not appear in volume. More like onesy-twosy.
As far as the Colloidal Silver technique, it is not as straightforward as sometimes described.
I tried it using one (what I thought was) 'premium' CS brand, diluted to 50 ppm. Plant loved the attention, but made no seeds.
But these natural fem seeds do not appear in volume. More like onesy-twosy.
As far as the Colloidal Silver technique, it is not as straightforward as sometimes described.
I tried it using one (what I thought was) 'premium' CS brand, diluted to 50 ppm. Plant loved the attention, but made no seeds.
Yes! Lots of great responses! Despite the time and dedication it takes, I do think it would be worth it especially for some clones that have stood the test of time. I have plants now that die inexplicably before they are done flowering, and their clones died too. It would be nice to have a seed backup to fall back on, or better yet be able to repeatedly do relable grow from seed. thanks for the input, please keep it coming! 
ThaCollieMann
Active member
it isnt that a strain or genetic makeup of a strain isnt available...clone only suggests a specific phenotype ...which isnt just going to be expressed on the first outcross..which is why i laugh at anyone claiming they created anything on a f1 polyhybrid level..until youve gotten atleast to f4 stage claiming that youve brought a phenotypical expression to seed is laughable
Pepe le skunk
Member
Agree that not all cubed plants will have the exact makeup of a clone only and breeding would require more individuals to have the best results at looking at the offspring to find the best pairings. However I do agree that more clone only plants should be cubbed to find the best examples for the rest of us.
My list of strains I'd like to see cubed are: (some are already done)
Albert Walker
G13
Old school Road Kill Skunk
The White
LVPK
King Louis
Iranian Indica
ECSD
NYCD
Nevils haze
84 Black Afghan
SFV OG Kush
My list of strains I'd like to see cubed are: (some are already done)
Albert Walker
G13
Old school Road Kill Skunk
The White
LVPK
King Louis
Iranian Indica
ECSD
NYCD
Nevils haze
84 Black Afghan
SFV OG Kush
TrinZilla
Member
No selfing, original trinity hit with soma lavender male then backcrossed to original trin...
I have LVPK, i made s1's with LVPK once but a very small batch & havent been successful at making more,tried to make more twice now with CS but it gets very little pollen thats all sterile i found that some strains refuse to put out fertile pollen or normal amounts,
ive made hybrids though & the lvpk dominates most of the time in most phenos, im making f2's of lvpk x hindu kush hybrid now using the most dominant lvpk phenos, look in my signiture....i may try making lvpk s1's again maybe i didnt make the CS solution strong enough is what im thinking.i just made a fem Bx2 successfully though no problems there maybe i should make a fem bx3 & put them out there?
ide like to see JOTI original god bud or blue god s1's made i know you can buy god bud or blue god but from my research its not the same as what it use to be.
ive made hybrids though & the lvpk dominates most of the time in most phenos, im making f2's of lvpk x hindu kush hybrid now using the most dominant lvpk phenos, look in my signiture....i may try making lvpk s1's again maybe i didnt make the CS solution strong enough is what im thinking.i just made a fem Bx2 successfully though no problems there maybe i should make a fem bx3 & put them out there?
ide like to see JOTI original god bud or blue god s1's made i know you can buy god bud or blue god but from my research its not the same as what it use to be.
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I think it all depends...parental selection make a big difference with working lines.
For example:
BKGK - clone only pheno:
BKGK Bx1 - in only sorting 10 seeds - 5 females:
Now I know - if I sort through that Bx1 line - and isolate specific plants that have a desired trait - then self those individual females multiple generations until each specific desired trait is stable within separate selfed lines - I can then recombine them back into a single line that expresses all traits, with a high degree of consistency. And if I spend my time focusing on a proper male to integrate with those isolated family lines - it's only a matter of time until I've got a line that expresses true in replicating the clone only...
It just takes YEARS to do it...
I don't see much market value in bringing stable representations of clones in seed form - because the consumers don't want that...and by the time you've done so - the "hype" has passed and everyone is chasing their tail after the next big thing...
However, I see a tremendous value as a personal grower in preserving some of the cuts that I LOVE and would hate to lose to circumstance...but that is for the private collection and to satisfy my own personal desire to enjoy the hobby...
Most consumers actually seem to prefer the "pheno hunt" as opposed to sprouting seeds where only 1 or 2 expressions emerge.
dank.Frank
For example:
BKGK - clone only pheno:
BKGK Bx1 - in only sorting 10 seeds - 5 females:
Now I know - if I sort through that Bx1 line - and isolate specific plants that have a desired trait - then self those individual females multiple generations until each specific desired trait is stable within separate selfed lines - I can then recombine them back into a single line that expresses all traits, with a high degree of consistency. And if I spend my time focusing on a proper male to integrate with those isolated family lines - it's only a matter of time until I've got a line that expresses true in replicating the clone only...
It just takes YEARS to do it...
I don't see much market value in bringing stable representations of clones in seed form - because the consumers don't want that...and by the time you've done so - the "hype" has passed and everyone is chasing their tail after the next big thing...
However, I see a tremendous value as a personal grower in preserving some of the cuts that I LOVE and would hate to lose to circumstance...but that is for the private collection and to satisfy my own personal desire to enjoy the hobby...
Most consumers actually seem to prefer the "pheno hunt" as opposed to sprouting seeds where only 1 or 2 expressions emerge.
dank.Frank
I don't know what strain those initials stand for, that is a frequent problem of mine. I see your point though, I just thought what makes a clone only desirable is one thing, and could be easily isolated and stabilized and somehow all the traits that made it what it was would stay true as part of the process. How very naive of me, and btw never meant to knock what you or vg or anyone else is doing. Yes you would have to isolate potency and yield and every other desirable quality individually and recombine later to try to create a stable clone only right? A long and tough task indeed and not for quick profit that's for sure. I would think bubba or og kush or trainwreck or others that stood the test of time would be worth trying to create in regular seed form, but as you say more for personal use than for following the latest quick cross fad.
Oh certainly not offended at all...just trying to answer your question.
BKGK = pre98 bubba kush x grape krush = but the "BKGK" was an isolated pheno from that seed line that was kept around as a clone because it was superior to it's family members...
I think it's very easy to get caught up on the idea of trying to replicate a given plant under the notion of "preservation" - but I often wonder if the real goal shouldn't be progression...and using the accepted "elites" as nothing more than a proverbial bar setter. I feel that is the true benefit of having access to plants that everyone states are "elite" - it gives a point of reference when sorting seeds as to what exactly is truly worth keeping and working with...
dank.Frank
BKGK = pre98 bubba kush x grape krush = but the "BKGK" was an isolated pheno from that seed line that was kept around as a clone because it was superior to it's family members...
I think it's very easy to get caught up on the idea of trying to replicate a given plant under the notion of "preservation" - but I often wonder if the real goal shouldn't be progression...and using the accepted "elites" as nothing more than a proverbial bar setter. I feel that is the true benefit of having access to plants that everyone states are "elite" - it gives a point of reference when sorting seeds as to what exactly is truly worth keeping and working with...
dank.Frank
Miraculous Meds
Well-known member
Well said.
But wouldn't it just be natural that u would have the chance of finding something better while u were doing a replication project anyway?
With so much variety out there in the entire cannabis gene pool, i don't even know why anyone besides "mersh dealers" who would be wasting time with clones. thousands of individual gene pairs, trillions of possible combinations...
just get a random male and a random female and start from there and find your own elite.
there's value in breeding, one of crosses, clones, and all that. why limit yourselves to one specific set of genes out of ALLLLLLLL the weed genes out there.
we're headed for a gene pool depression , and once it gets "legalized" (monetized) worldwide it's gonna turn into charlottes web or kush. which gene pool would you like to smoke today?
just get a random male and a random female and start from there and find your own elite.
there's value in breeding, one of crosses, clones, and all that. why limit yourselves to one specific set of genes out of ALLLLLLLL the weed genes out there.
we're headed for a gene pool depression , and once it gets "legalized" (monetized) worldwide it's gonna turn into charlottes web or kush. which gene pool would you like to smoke today?
You'd hope so...
But finding something better - isn't really the original question on hand.
From the concept of taking clone only cuts and making a seed line that is EXACTLY like them...in such verbiage you aren't really looking for "better" anymore...
Which again, is why I think it's best to take these types of cuts and try to use them as building blocks for seed releases, than it is to try and offer a "preservation" type effort. Preservation is more about saving positive traits within a family line, than it really is about making a 1:1 replica of something...as I don't think such is really possible anyway...not when starting with poly-hybrids that are built off poly-hybrids...and have been for the last 30 years.
dank.Frank
Can be done, but of course you need:
1)Profesional aproach and logistics.
2)Time.
In the world of plants, flowers, if you want register a Strain/variety with a name, you need to pass a certification process I think. There must be a estability.
Let´s say roses; Gertrude Jekyll Rose is considered the archetipe of the British Rose named after the woman of the same name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gertrude_Jekyll
This means that everytime someone buys a Gertrude Jekyll Rose is the same rose (shape, smell,colour)there are not 3 of 4 or even 2 phenotypes there is just ONE.
This is why there are many plants that you see there are a number of registered strains and more described but not registered.
Can be done, but you need time of course, not be rushing to be on time for the next cup and that LOL.
I mean, if someone think that is going to register hybrids, polihybrids or feminized S1 as strains, please stop calling yourself breeders, help yourself, and go to some re-education center lol.
This is not a very good analogy, commercial roses are grafted and more or less clones. Nobody buys rose seed.
Edit: To better fit the topic of the thread would be to try and breed a carbon copy the Gertrude Jekyll Rose in seed form.
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May be you´re right, Roses are not the best example.
But anyway:
http://www.ehow.com/info_8224623_roses-named.html
Around, at least, 2 years to register a new Rose strain/variety.
I think you can understand my point, I f you want to understand it of course.
But anyway:
http://www.ehow.com/info_8224623_roses-named.html
Around, at least, 2 years to register a new Rose strain/variety.
I think you can understand my point, I f you want to understand it of course.
hillbillyIBL
New member
So from what I take from this.. As a seed buyer you need not look at fancy names just is it indica or sativa or hybrid? That that pack of "stable" skunk 1,PPP and NL will have ten different plants.. And the description on the pack is BS and you will be lucky to find one fitting the bill? So are there REALLY any STABLE strains out there for someone looking for that and not pheno hunting?
Or would they be better off going with a S1 of a skunk or PPP?
Or would they be better off going with a S1 of a skunk or PPP?
hillbillyIBL
New member
Is true breeding cannabis a myth?
Not, it's not a myth at all....take Deep Chunk for example...or Dr. Atomic NL...or Bubba Kush S1's - all of those tend to have plants that are VERY similar to each other...
Identical...no..very similar, yes.
"TRUE BREEDING" could mean any number of things...true breeding for WHAT...is the question. True breeding for height...a single cannabinoid...amount of resin...???
For example, my Digi Bx1 male I used on a few crosses that I wanted to work further into their own distinct lines - was true breeding for the terpene profile and for the cannabinoid profile. Not EVERY plant - but an easy 15:20 - had the right smell and the right high.
And certainly the different names matter - because it distinguishes the variences. Every plant is going to produce a different combinations of terpenes and cannabinoids - so why wouldn't you want to stay within a family line that the things you enjoy about cannabis are going to surface with a greater frequency???
An S1 is no more stable than a female / male breeding when your selfing a polyhybrid. An S1 does not give you a true representation - but what it does allow you to see is how much variation exists within a female itself, without any additional input from outside genetic sources...ie a male. Why everyone thinks an S1 is some magic ticket - I have no real idea at all...it baffles me.
Certainly cannabis can be intelligently selected over mulitple generations to narrow down the amount of varience - but legalities prevent most people from seeing what is truly dominant and recessive gene traits - simply because you are not sorting through a large enough population to accurately acess such a thing. Now, if you were sorting 2,000 seeds every single generation - then you might have the ability to see what traits are acutally surfacing in a dominant manner...the same as has been done with commercial agricultural products. If we were allowed to breed and select from 50,000 plants in a single year - you'd see a lot more "stable" varieties...but then, think about it...UNLESS you are growing for commercial production, what is the true benefit to having every plant be exactly the same? That's why tomatoes and peppers and and and...are all the same - it's so farmers can make profit estimates by knowing precisely what to expect in return for their time and investment spent growing something. But tomatoes are a perfect example - all flavor was lost in commercial tomatoes in an attempt to make them all the same. To have flavorful fruits meant oddly shaped irreguarlarities...that were "unattractive" to the eye and unpredictable to environmental elements....so good traits were tossed out the window in the name of stability...ie profit.
Do you REALLY want that to be how cannabis is? Granted...if it goes legal - this is EXACTLY what you should expect to see...trademarked, patented, run of the mill...stable...HIGH YIELDING...mid-grade...for the masses...
The reality is - if you see something that interests you and you think you might enjoy growing and smoking it - BUY IT - and discover for yourself what it is you enjoy. Don't let others or hype decide it for you...
Isn't that what makes this a hobby after all? That experience...that self-discovery...that hunt to find something that hits you JUST right. It's the pursuit...that constant "what if this is the ONE"...that keeps it interesting.
Growing clone after clone after clone is great if you are a commercial grower - but it gets real boring, real fast...
dank.Frank
Identical...no..very similar, yes.
"TRUE BREEDING" could mean any number of things...true breeding for WHAT...is the question. True breeding for height...a single cannabinoid...amount of resin...???
For example, my Digi Bx1 male I used on a few crosses that I wanted to work further into their own distinct lines - was true breeding for the terpene profile and for the cannabinoid profile. Not EVERY plant - but an easy 15:20 - had the right smell and the right high.
And certainly the different names matter - because it distinguishes the variences. Every plant is going to produce a different combinations of terpenes and cannabinoids - so why wouldn't you want to stay within a family line that the things you enjoy about cannabis are going to surface with a greater frequency???
An S1 is no more stable than a female / male breeding when your selfing a polyhybrid. An S1 does not give you a true representation - but what it does allow you to see is how much variation exists within a female itself, without any additional input from outside genetic sources...ie a male. Why everyone thinks an S1 is some magic ticket - I have no real idea at all...it baffles me.
Certainly cannabis can be intelligently selected over mulitple generations to narrow down the amount of varience - but legalities prevent most people from seeing what is truly dominant and recessive gene traits - simply because you are not sorting through a large enough population to accurately acess such a thing. Now, if you were sorting 2,000 seeds every single generation - then you might have the ability to see what traits are acutally surfacing in a dominant manner...the same as has been done with commercial agricultural products. If we were allowed to breed and select from 50,000 plants in a single year - you'd see a lot more "stable" varieties...but then, think about it...UNLESS you are growing for commercial production, what is the true benefit to having every plant be exactly the same? That's why tomatoes and peppers and and and...are all the same - it's so farmers can make profit estimates by knowing precisely what to expect in return for their time and investment spent growing something. But tomatoes are a perfect example - all flavor was lost in commercial tomatoes in an attempt to make them all the same. To have flavorful fruits meant oddly shaped irreguarlarities...that were "unattractive" to the eye and unpredictable to environmental elements....so good traits were tossed out the window in the name of stability...ie profit.
Do you REALLY want that to be how cannabis is? Granted...if it goes legal - this is EXACTLY what you should expect to see...trademarked, patented, run of the mill...stable...HIGH YIELDING...mid-grade...for the masses...
The reality is - if you see something that interests you and you think you might enjoy growing and smoking it - BUY IT - and discover for yourself what it is you enjoy. Don't let others or hype decide it for you...
Isn't that what makes this a hobby after all? That experience...that self-discovery...that hunt to find something that hits you JUST right. It's the pursuit...that constant "what if this is the ONE"...that keeps it interesting.
Growing clone after clone after clone is great if you are a commercial grower - but it gets real boring, real fast...
dank.Frank
Kudos.
