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What to do when Forbid fails?
- Thread starter krinen
- Start date
@ mikell dude chill out you are going to knock
Down what ever device you are using.
I offered help that's all
Why would I care for anyone's judgement .
It's a chem it works it's systemic I say clone the girls get rid of what was treated
Now cause I I don't tell what it is on here.
I am a bad person and grow shit.
Burn one homie
Down what ever device you are using.
I offered help that's all
Why would I care for anyone's judgement .
It's a chem it works it's systemic I say clone the girls get rid of what was treated
Now cause I I don't tell what it is on here.
I am a bad person and grow shit.
Burn one homie
Forbid is gonna take a while. avid on tiny clones that u will veg for atleast 6-8 weeks... and flower for atleast 9 weeks.... floramite works good too...
After that I would used caps foliar....
U shiukd really look into caps beenies as a foliar spray ....
After that I would used caps foliar....
U shiukd really look into caps beenies as a foliar spray ....
dabking
Member
that was proven false. Its been proven that microwaves actually cook things more effectively leaving more nutrition than traditional cooking... Its all the instant crap that's bad. Look it up on snopes.
Interesting, I enjoyed poking around about that subject. I'm not much of a microwaver, but it's good to see common myths (that I held) debunked. I still wouldn't cook anything in there, but it works to heat up coffee in a pinch.
Microwaves still apply heat unevenly, whether for cooking or warming neem. Neem oil degrades quickly under high heat or light. It is preferable to simply place the container in a bowl of warm water, and emulsify/mix in a solution around 70*F.
Microwaves still apply heat unevenly, whether for cooking or warming neem. Neem oil degrades quickly under high heat or light. It is preferable to simply place the container in a bowl of warm water, and emulsify/mix in a solution around 70*F.
Kontos .. 1ml per gallon..systemic... mites of all types adios son
Great advice.
And best of all, the plants really didn't seem to mind the treatment for me. Unlike Forbid, when the smaller clones were nearly annihilated.
Photosynthesis
Member
Neem oil with essential oils mixed in will kill them, and the eggs. Essential oils alone can do it.
I just got a spider mite ridden clone from a friend, and it is clear 2 weeks later after only 2 weekly treatments.
A microscope is your friend.
No need for deadly chemicals.
They also will not built up an immunity to the oils.
I just got a spider mite ridden clone from a friend, and it is clear 2 weeks later after only 2 weekly treatments.
A microscope is your friend.
No need for deadly chemicals.
They also will not built up an immunity to the oils.
Rotation of any miticide is required. Investigate the miticide's Mode of Action (MOA) and select few more with a different MOA, and rotate all 3 of them. It does not matter if your miticide is "organic" or "synthetic"--rotation with different MOA is the key to success...not more of the same.
Go here for miticide MOA poster--www.irac-online.org/documents/mites-moa-poster/?ext=pdf
Go here for the complete MOA bible--www.irac-online.org/documents/moa-brochure/?ext=pdf
BTW, for a real affordable source for the generic version of Avid (active ingredient--Abamectin) go here--http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/abamectin-spc-015-ec-insecticide-miticide-p-2349.html.
32 oz is just under $100--vs 8 oz of Avid for the same price (just under $100)...same thing other than the label, but you get 24 oz more for "free".
Go here for miticide MOA poster--www.irac-online.org/documents/mites-moa-poster/?ext=pdf
Go here for the complete MOA bible--www.irac-online.org/documents/moa-brochure/?ext=pdf
BTW, for a real affordable source for the generic version of Avid (active ingredient--Abamectin) go here--http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/abamectin-spc-015-ec-insecticide-miticide-p-2349.html.
32 oz is just under $100--vs 8 oz of Avid for the same price (just under $100)...same thing other than the label, but you get 24 oz more for "free".
Last edited:
Photosynthesis
Member
There is no need to rotate when using essential oils. It is the terpenes that are doing the work.
There will be no resistance built up.
One weekly spray will take care of most anything as long as you are using the correct essential oils.
The "rotations" are because of resistance. If there is no "resistance " then there does not need to be a rotation.
Essential oils are one of the most overlooked products when it comes to gardening.
I would investigate more about MOA, read a few IRAC documents and then re-evaluate your conclusion.
Photosynthesis
Member
Read up on essential oils, and then report back.
Maybe we both can learn something.
First, I incorporate Neem Oil in my routine so I like it; I am not "anti-neem". Second, I believe in maximum efficiency (where possible/reasonable) and sometimes Neem fails; so knowing when Neem fails is just as important as knowing when it succeeds.
This 291 page book titled, "Neem: Today and in the New Millennium" presents some of Neem's "pro" and "con" aspects that is easy to read. Here is a cut and paste that made sense to me:
http://www.productosdeneem.com/ebooks/NeemToday-and-in-the-New-Millennium.pdf#page=48
"Apart from safety to the user and the environment, major attributes of neem-based
insecticides include their broad spectrum-of-action against pests, their feeding
deterrent action, and their systemic action in plants. In practice though, there are
limitations to each of these attributes that influence when and how neem insecticides
can be used successfully.
Many reviews of neem for insect control provide long lists of pests
susceptible to neem, some of which are based exclusively on laboratory tests, with
the total number of susceptible pest species reputed to be in excess of 400. Neem is
unquestionably effective, under specific conditions, against certain pests,
particularly lepidopteran and coleopteran larvae. On the other hand, neem has failed
to show efficacy against other pests, e.g. some species of tephritid flies (apple
maggot, cherry fruit fly). And owing to its limited persistence on plants, multiple
applications are necessary to achieve acceptable control against some important
pests with a wide flight period (e.g. codling moth on apple, bollworm on cotton),
which may not be economically feasible. For example, when applied weekly as a
stand alone insecticide (at rates of 25-50 g aza/ha), AlignR provides commercially
competitive insect control, but acceptable control is not always achieved when
applications are made two weeks apart, or if weekly applications are made at rates
less than 25 g aza/ha (Wood et al., 1995).
Aphids were shown to be highly variable in their susceptibility to neem:
some aphid species are quite susceptible while others are relatively tolerant. In this
case the host plant appears to play a significant role, as the aphids must acquire
azadirachtin through feeding on plant tissues (Lowery and Isman, 1994; Koul,
2003). Though there is a popular notion that azadirachtin moves systemically in all
plants, systemic action has in fact only been demonstrated in a few agronomic plants
(tomato, potato, rice, maize) and these may prove to be the exception rather than the
rule.
While azadirachtin (and neem seed extracts) are potent antifeedants to
many species of insects there is again a wide range or susceptibilities, even among
related insects. Studies with noctuid larvae indicate that behavioural responses to
azadirachtin are much more variable between species than physiological responses
(Isman, 1993). Furthermore, the antifeedant response in insects can be modified by
experience – repeated exposures or continuous exposure leads to demonstrated
habituation in both tobacco cutworms and in adult Japanese beetles (Bomford and
Isman, 1996). And even though azadirachtin is the most potent antifeedant for
desert locusts discovered to date, North American grasshoppers can eat neem-treated
plants with impunity, although they subsequently suffer from the physiological
effects of azadirachtin (Champagne et al., 1989; Reynolds et al., 2001).
In terms of grower acceptance, neem insecticides suffer from the same
weakness as other insect growth regulators – they lack contact action and work
slowly. Insects on treated plants may indeed cease feeding shortly after treatment,
but they can remain alive for days, a situation disheartening to growers used to using
synthetic pyrethroids or other contact toxins that kill pests in a matter of hours.
Neem is also relatively ineffective against late stages or instars of pests and many
types of adult insects. Under moderate to high insect pressure, neem may not act
rapidly enough to prevent economic damage. Where neem does display excellent
efficacy is against pests capable of explosive population growth, such as aphids and
whiteflies. In these pests the survival of a particular generation is far less noticeable
than the overall population trend."
IMHO, Neem is not the "holy grail" of all "cides", rather it is "just another one" that has its place in my "rotation".
This 291 page book titled, "Neem: Today and in the New Millennium" presents some of Neem's "pro" and "con" aspects that is easy to read. Here is a cut and paste that made sense to me:
http://www.productosdeneem.com/ebooks/NeemToday-and-in-the-New-Millennium.pdf#page=48
"Apart from safety to the user and the environment, major attributes of neem-based
insecticides include their broad spectrum-of-action against pests, their feeding
deterrent action, and their systemic action in plants. In practice though, there are
limitations to each of these attributes that influence when and how neem insecticides
can be used successfully.
Many reviews of neem for insect control provide long lists of pests
susceptible to neem, some of which are based exclusively on laboratory tests, with
the total number of susceptible pest species reputed to be in excess of 400. Neem is
unquestionably effective, under specific conditions, against certain pests,
particularly lepidopteran and coleopteran larvae. On the other hand, neem has failed
to show efficacy against other pests, e.g. some species of tephritid flies (apple
maggot, cherry fruit fly). And owing to its limited persistence on plants, multiple
applications are necessary to achieve acceptable control against some important
pests with a wide flight period (e.g. codling moth on apple, bollworm on cotton),
which may not be economically feasible. For example, when applied weekly as a
stand alone insecticide (at rates of 25-50 g aza/ha), AlignR provides commercially
competitive insect control, but acceptable control is not always achieved when
applications are made two weeks apart, or if weekly applications are made at rates
less than 25 g aza/ha (Wood et al., 1995).
Aphids were shown to be highly variable in their susceptibility to neem:
some aphid species are quite susceptible while others are relatively tolerant. In this
case the host plant appears to play a significant role, as the aphids must acquire
azadirachtin through feeding on plant tissues (Lowery and Isman, 1994; Koul,
2003). Though there is a popular notion that azadirachtin moves systemically in all
plants, systemic action has in fact only been demonstrated in a few agronomic plants
(tomato, potato, rice, maize) and these may prove to be the exception rather than the
rule.
While azadirachtin (and neem seed extracts) are potent antifeedants to
many species of insects there is again a wide range or susceptibilities, even among
related insects. Studies with noctuid larvae indicate that behavioural responses to
azadirachtin are much more variable between species than physiological responses
(Isman, 1993). Furthermore, the antifeedant response in insects can be modified by
experience – repeated exposures or continuous exposure leads to demonstrated
habituation in both tobacco cutworms and in adult Japanese beetles (Bomford and
Isman, 1996). And even though azadirachtin is the most potent antifeedant for
desert locusts discovered to date, North American grasshoppers can eat neem-treated
plants with impunity, although they subsequently suffer from the physiological
effects of azadirachtin (Champagne et al., 1989; Reynolds et al., 2001).
In terms of grower acceptance, neem insecticides suffer from the same
weakness as other insect growth regulators – they lack contact action and work
slowly. Insects on treated plants may indeed cease feeding shortly after treatment,
but they can remain alive for days, a situation disheartening to growers used to using
synthetic pyrethroids or other contact toxins that kill pests in a matter of hours.
Neem is also relatively ineffective against late stages or instars of pests and many
types of adult insects. Under moderate to high insect pressure, neem may not act
rapidly enough to prevent economic damage. Where neem does display excellent
efficacy is against pests capable of explosive population growth, such as aphids and
whiteflies. In these pests the survival of a particular generation is far less noticeable
than the overall population trend."
IMHO, Neem is not the "holy grail" of all "cides", rather it is "just another one" that has its place in my "rotation".
Azamax, spinosad, diatomaceous earth all had not much effect in my experience. Slightly lowered the population for a few days.
I did not expect to get rid of them all, being organic, but tried many things while perpetual garden was winding down in one location and ramping back up in another.
What did work the best was just vacuuming the top couple of inches of dirt away.
Second best was rosemary oil mixed with cedar oil, garden never smelled better.
Root aphids suck, but they made me become a better gardener after years of complacency.
I did not expect to get rid of them all, being organic, but tried many things while perpetual garden was winding down in one location and ramping back up in another.
What did work the best was just vacuuming the top couple of inches of dirt away.
Second best was rosemary oil mixed with cedar oil, garden never smelled better.
Root aphids suck, but they made me become a better gardener after years of complacency.
GOATSQUATCH
New member
Would you eat it but not smoke it or smoke it and not eat it or eat and smoke it or n
Would you eat it but not smoke it or smoke it and not eat it or eat and smoke it or n
I respect a persons right to grow their own stash however they see fit and they know their strains and conditions and feeding and light regiments and many other complicated scientific evaluations:
That being said, I don't think I want to buy or grow this product.
To each their own
Would you eat it but not smoke it or smoke it and not eat it or eat and smoke it or n
I respect a persons right to grow their own stash however they see fit and they know their strains and conditions and feeding and light regiments and many other complicated scientific evaluations:
That being said, I don't think I want to buy or grow this product.
To each their own
BTW, regarding the notion critters do not build up any "resistance" to essential oils--technically that may be true, but that does not answer the issue of "adaption" (which essentially neutralizes essential oil's MOA) which is similar to--but not the same as "pesticide resistance". Adaption is when the targeted pest adapts/modifies it's behavior in such away to basically render the pesticide ineffective. Hence the argument to rotate cides...even when one uses essential oils (which I do).
Let me repeat a few lines from the above cut & paste that proves my point--
"Studies with noctuid larvae indicate that behavioural responses to
azadirachtin are much more variable between species than physiological responses
(Isman, 1993)." Furthermore, the antifeedant response in insects can be modified by
experience – repeated exposures or continuous exposure leads to demonstrated
habituation in both tobacco cutworms and in adult Japanese beetles (Bomford and
Isman, 1996).
There is more out there--but I think we get the idea, critters learn and respond accordingly.
Let me repeat a few lines from the above cut & paste that proves my point--
"Studies with noctuid larvae indicate that behavioural responses to
azadirachtin are much more variable between species than physiological responses
(Isman, 1993)." Furthermore, the antifeedant response in insects can be modified by
experience – repeated exposures or continuous exposure leads to demonstrated
habituation in both tobacco cutworms and in adult Japanese beetles (Bomford and
Isman, 1996).
There is more out there--but I think we get the idea, critters learn and respond accordingly.
