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The search for a proper recovery pump..
- Thread starter HighStateToke
- Start date
Hi Gray Wolf
Hey good to talk to you. I haven't been in this corner of ICMAG for a long while. I hope everything is good with you and yours.
Yes I agree wholeheartedly.
Yeah that is true, but that doesn't interest me really. This mainly endangers the operator, and anyone in close proximity. My comments were specifically about the quality control of the product, and the safety of the consumer.
I think it is accurate to say that refrigerant pumps have moving metal surfaces that come into contact with each other. Such contact leads to wear/fretting. This produces very small (sub-micron) metal particles. Very small metal particles in stuff you are going to heat and inhale is not good. I am sure you are aware of the various metal toxicities? Not just the heavy metals everyone is aware of, but things like manganism familiar to welders.
You are an engineer, right? You are telling me that butane is a suitable substitute for the lubricant these pumps were designed to use? I disagree. I don't think butane is a very good lubricant at all. That is why pumps designed to pump butane are lubricated with things like polyalkylene glycol. I have also noticed that lubricant spec sheets usually list things like how corrosive the agent was found to be on copper. The right lubricant for a butane pump on a rig producing phamaceutical grade BHO would have to be very carefully chosen indeed.
Anything in the guts of the pump is exposed to the product. I think the list of potentially harmful substances present in the pump, both in the actual materials that the pump is made from, and residues/artifacts of the manufacturing process, is very long. Allthough the amounts maybe small in some cases, some compounds are very toxic.
You say it requires explanation, I say it is the other way around. The burden of proof rests on the producers, not the consumers. I say that what needs explanation is how it is known there is no contamination from these pumps.
When it comes to medicines, we are talking about the highest level of responsibility/duty, akin to that in critical aerospace applications involving passenger aircraft etc. The company you retired from was Six Sigma wan't it?
Yeah, I think if you go read my post again you will see that my point was that butane is non-toxic. I don't care if there is a little butane in my oil. I want to know if there is any sub-micron manganese, or aflatoxin in it. And I am aware of tests for these things. Testing for residual butane is a waste of time, a distraction, and a false sense of safety. I have yet to find a dispensary or oil producer that can show tests for metals or mycotoxins, though. Maybe things are different there. Have you tested for these things?
You are right about the natural toxins having nothing to do specifically with closed loops and pumps, I should have been more clear that I was shifting focus to a broader view of concentrates in general. You still missed my point. Some natural toxins are so toxic, that any concentration process, natural (like top of the food chain mercury), or artificial (oil making) can make for danger even if the raw material is not obviously contaminated- moldy in this case.
Hey, once again, it is good to talk to you. I always enjoy it.
mofeta
Hey good to talk to you. I haven't been in this corner of ICMAG for a long while. I hope everything is good with you and yours.
Yes I agree wholeheartedly.
Yeah that is true, but that doesn't interest me really. This mainly endangers the operator, and anyone in close proximity. My comments were specifically about the quality control of the product, and the safety of the consumer.
I think it is accurate to say that refrigerant pumps have moving metal surfaces that come into contact with each other. Such contact leads to wear/fretting. This produces very small (sub-micron) metal particles. Very small metal particles in stuff you are going to heat and inhale is not good. I am sure you are aware of the various metal toxicities? Not just the heavy metals everyone is aware of, but things like manganism familiar to welders.
You are an engineer, right? You are telling me that butane is a suitable substitute for the lubricant these pumps were designed to use? I disagree. I don't think butane is a very good lubricant at all. That is why pumps designed to pump butane are lubricated with things like polyalkylene glycol. I have also noticed that lubricant spec sheets usually list things like how corrosive the agent was found to be on copper. The right lubricant for a butane pump on a rig producing phamaceutical grade BHO would have to be very carefully chosen indeed.
Anything in the guts of the pump is exposed to the product. I think the list of potentially harmful substances present in the pump, both in the actual materials that the pump is made from, and residues/artifacts of the manufacturing process, is very long. Allthough the amounts maybe small in some cases, some compounds are very toxic.
You say it requires explanation, I say it is the other way around. The burden of proof rests on the producers, not the consumers. I say that what needs explanation is how it is known there is no contamination from these pumps.
When it comes to medicines, we are talking about the highest level of responsibility/duty, akin to that in critical aerospace applications involving passenger aircraft etc. The company you retired from was Six Sigma wan't it?
Yeah, I think if you go read my post again you will see that my point was that butane is non-toxic. I don't care if there is a little butane in my oil. I want to know if there is any sub-micron manganese, or aflatoxin in it. And I am aware of tests for these things. Testing for residual butane is a waste of time, a distraction, and a false sense of safety. I have yet to find a dispensary or oil producer that can show tests for metals or mycotoxins, though. Maybe things are different there. Have you tested for these things?
You are right about the natural toxins having nothing to do specifically with closed loops and pumps, I should have been more clear that I was shifting focus to a broader view of concentrates in general. You still missed my point. Some natural toxins are so toxic, that any concentration process, natural (like top of the food chain mercury), or artificial (oil making) can make for danger even if the raw material is not obviously contaminated- moldy in this case.
Hey, once again, it is good to talk to you. I always enjoy it.
mofeta
I was appalled at the post that recovery pump were spewing poisons, I'd like to see him try to defend his claims. Most are completely fabricated.
Mofeta's concerns are quite valid, so I'd like to address them...
I've measured the wear ring and piston seal from leaking pumps and was surprised to find there was little wear on the piston seal. The reason they leak on the piston seals is two fold.
One is due to buildup of cannabis resin on the seal ring causing it to stick in the groove and not seal. The seal ring needs to be free to move in order to seal. having a large filter/dryer before the pump largely overcomes this issue.
The other and main failure point is the o-ring behind the piston seal. This o-ring is there to act as a spring to keep pressure on the piston seal. Running these pumps dry causes a lot of heat which in turn causes the o-ring to harden, and it loses its ability to force the piston seal against the cylinder and seal it.
Recovery pumps need a flow of gas through them to remove heat, with little gas flow the piston heats up quickly.
The only other moving part exposed to the butane stream is the inlet and exhaust valves, which appear to be a hard plastic and don't wear much if at all.
Appion is one of the few truly oil-free pumps on the market which is why it was chosen. But... it's not designed for continuous heavy duty use.
Ok, next point:
I recommend running clean butane through a new pump to blow out any residual oils from manufacturing, and the only other guts of the pump to contact butane are brass, copper, anodized aluminum, nitrile seals, or nylon. Copper isn't rated well on compatibility charts but I've never seen any signs of corrosion in the lines or condenser within the pump. Unless there was a lot of water in the butane stream I just can't see any detectable amount of copper oxides finding their way to the storage tank...
I just don't see anything in the butane stream of the pump that could possibly contaminate the product.
In Europe hydrocarbon refrigerants are becoming popular which led to the introduction of the Caresaver. European safety regulations are insanely rigid, so a sealed compressor was chosen so it couldn't leak into the room where the pump is being used. A refrigerant tech could possibly use a recovery pump in a small unventilated room so the explosion proof rating was necessary to satisfy insurance lawyers.
A closed loop extractor should always be used in a thoroughly ventilated room with a gas detector (cheap) nearby. If done carefully, there's little chance of a gas leak that could build up enough gas to be dangerous.
RB
Mofeta's concerns are quite valid, so I'd like to address them...
In the case of the Appion, this is not the case for the parts that contact the butane stream. The piston and cylinder are hard anodized aluminum and the piston is kept from contacting the cylinder wall by a hard plastic ring. There is actually considerable piston to cylinder clearance (around 0.015"), and with normal wear the piston would never contact the cylinder. You can see how much clearance there is from my picture.
I've measured the wear ring and piston seal from leaking pumps and was surprised to find there was little wear on the piston seal. The reason they leak on the piston seals is two fold.
One is due to buildup of cannabis resin on the seal ring causing it to stick in the groove and not seal. The seal ring needs to be free to move in order to seal. having a large filter/dryer before the pump largely overcomes this issue.
The other and main failure point is the o-ring behind the piston seal. This o-ring is there to act as a spring to keep pressure on the piston seal. Running these pumps dry causes a lot of heat which in turn causes the o-ring to harden, and it loses its ability to force the piston seal against the cylinder and seal it.
Recovery pumps need a flow of gas through them to remove heat, with little gas flow the piston heats up quickly.
The only other moving part exposed to the butane stream is the inlet and exhaust valves, which appear to be a hard plastic and don't wear much if at all.
Appion is one of the few truly oil-free pumps on the market which is why it was chosen. But... it's not designed for continuous heavy duty use.
Ok, next point:
I recommend running clean butane through a new pump to blow out any residual oils from manufacturing, and the only other guts of the pump to contact butane are brass, copper, anodized aluminum, nitrile seals, or nylon. Copper isn't rated well on compatibility charts but I've never seen any signs of corrosion in the lines or condenser within the pump. Unless there was a lot of water in the butane stream I just can't see any detectable amount of copper oxides finding their way to the storage tank...
I just don't see anything in the butane stream of the pump that could possibly contaminate the product.
In Europe hydrocarbon refrigerants are becoming popular which led to the introduction of the Caresaver. European safety regulations are insanely rigid, so a sealed compressor was chosen so it couldn't leak into the room where the pump is being used. A refrigerant tech could possibly use a recovery pump in a small unventilated room so the explosion proof rating was necessary to satisfy insurance lawyers.
A closed loop extractor should always be used in a thoroughly ventilated room with a gas detector (cheap) nearby. If done carefully, there's little chance of a gas leak that could build up enough gas to be dangerous.
RB
Attachments
icdog:
I just use filter driers on the pump inlets. The pic I posted was on a pump that probably had 300+ hours on it and the amount of resin on the piston is minimal. The piston ring was still free.
If you mean filter on the liquid line from the recovery tank when you say flood side, a combined dessicant/activated carbon filter would catch any residual rust and water as well as some other nasty stuff.
RB
I just use filter driers on the pump inlets. The pic I posted was on a pump that probably had 300+ hours on it and the amount of resin on the piston is minimal. The piston ring was still free.
If you mean filter on the liquid line from the recovery tank when you say flood side, a combined dessicant/activated carbon filter would catch any residual rust and water as well as some other nasty stuff.
RB
Hi Rickys Bong
Hey thanks for the thoughtful reply.
Thanks for the information/pic on the Appion. What is on the crank side of the the O-ring/seal? Things leak both ways, no?
Do you know what alloy they are using for the piston and cylinder?
In the failed units that you have seen personally, did inspection reveal any visible wear on either the piston or the cylinder?
What type of "hard plastic" is in use here? Is it soluble in butane or terps? Is it toxic?
I agree with your views about the corrosion issue when it comes to pure butane, it is functionally noncorrosive with regards to metals. But, like you said, water or other compounds are a different story. On the other hand, a film of the goodies from the weed could be a pretty efficient anti-corrosion coating....
Like I said before, I think it would be a trivial exercise for one of these companies to design a suitable pump for this application. They could probably slightly modify one of their existing designs to do so.
I also think it is entirely possible that the Appion G5 is OK for this application for personal use, you seem to think so.
What is your level of confidence that there is no significant source of potential contamination from an Appion G5 under all circumstances, including units that have not yet failed, but are not operating to spec due to seal compromises or heat from lack of lubrication? How did you reach this conclusion?
What experience do you have with any of the other refrigerant recovery pumps that are commonly used on BHO rigs?
I personally will not provide food, drink, or medicine to a person or animal that I am not at my highest level of confidence about the safety of the item. Currently, my confidence that BHO made with any refrigerant pump (including ones made for R600, I am sure those are designed so the pump is not damaged by the butane, but I am sure they did not design it with any consideration of producing a pharmaceutical grade human consumable with it either) is pure medicine falls far short of this standard. The tests necessary to do so would be easy, though expensive by private citizen standards, to carry out. Please don't take it personally, but "I don't see how it could happen." is not good enough for me.
I am real interested to see who will succeed in the transition from kitchen/garage projects to the "legit" world, where the competition (in a few more years anyway) will be the likes of Bayer, or Pfizer, or even further down the road, RJ Reynolds. I have yet to meet someone in the MMJ industry that has a good understanding of the kind of regulatory and QC hoops that pharma companies have to jump through, most normal people would boggle at how extreme the measures are that they take to insure consumer safety.
Well, thanks again for the thoughtful reply. Most extractors I know are, by nature, very dynamic, confident go-getters who are not averse to risk taking. Pioneers in any field, especially quasi-legal ones usually are. I like it when this type of person is also even-tempered and reasonable, an unusual combo in my experience. Gray Wolf is like that (even though I have a feeling that he may have been a little more "fiery" in his youth), It looks like I can add you to that list.
Hey thanks for the thoughtful reply.
Thanks for the information/pic on the Appion. What is on the crank side of the the O-ring/seal? Things leak both ways, no?
Do you know what alloy they are using for the piston and cylinder?
In the failed units that you have seen personally, did inspection reveal any visible wear on either the piston or the cylinder?
What type of "hard plastic" is in use here? Is it soluble in butane or terps? Is it toxic?
I agree with your views about the corrosion issue when it comes to pure butane, it is functionally noncorrosive with regards to metals. But, like you said, water or other compounds are a different story. On the other hand, a film of the goodies from the weed could be a pretty efficient anti-corrosion coating....
Like I said before, I think it would be a trivial exercise for one of these companies to design a suitable pump for this application. They could probably slightly modify one of their existing designs to do so.
I also think it is entirely possible that the Appion G5 is OK for this application for personal use, you seem to think so.
What is your level of confidence that there is no significant source of potential contamination from an Appion G5 under all circumstances, including units that have not yet failed, but are not operating to spec due to seal compromises or heat from lack of lubrication? How did you reach this conclusion?
What experience do you have with any of the other refrigerant recovery pumps that are commonly used on BHO rigs?
I personally will not provide food, drink, or medicine to a person or animal that I am not at my highest level of confidence about the safety of the item. Currently, my confidence that BHO made with any refrigerant pump (including ones made for R600, I am sure those are designed so the pump is not damaged by the butane, but I am sure they did not design it with any consideration of producing a pharmaceutical grade human consumable with it either) is pure medicine falls far short of this standard. The tests necessary to do so would be easy, though expensive by private citizen standards, to carry out. Please don't take it personally, but "I don't see how it could happen." is not good enough for me.
I am real interested to see who will succeed in the transition from kitchen/garage projects to the "legit" world, where the competition (in a few more years anyway) will be the likes of Bayer, or Pfizer, or even further down the road, RJ Reynolds. I have yet to meet someone in the MMJ industry that has a good understanding of the kind of regulatory and QC hoops that pharma companies have to jump through, most normal people would boggle at how extreme the measures are that they take to insure consumer safety.
Well, thanks again for the thoughtful reply. Most extractors I know are, by nature, very dynamic, confident go-getters who are not averse to risk taking. Pioneers in any field, especially quasi-legal ones usually are. I like it when this type of person is also even-tempered and reasonable, an unusual combo in my experience. Gray Wolf is like that (even though I have a feeling that he may have been a little more "fiery" in his youth), It looks like I can add you to that list.
Mofeta:
The crank side of the Appion piston is essentially open to atmosphere, which is a drawback and necessitates careful pre-run leak testing but... there is Zero chance of crankshaft bearing lube entering the butane stream.
Both the piston and cylinder are most likely 6061 aluminum. Both are hard anodized, and the cylinder looks to be impregnated with dry lube.
Anodizing is quite cool on a microscopic level, when subjected to current the surface develops a microscopic honeycomb which can be filled with dye (colored anodizing) or lubricants. When freshly anodized aluminum is dipped in hot water the honeycomb swells and traps the dye or lube inside.
I've actually been very surprised at how little wear I've seen on the cylinders. Virtually none after 500+ hours.
Any of my units that have failed (my system runs 2 Appions and recovers 25 liters/run) only had leaky seals, no visible wear.
I've also used a Promax which wasn't successful. More on that later.
I used hard plastic as a generalization. The valves are nylon or Delrin and the piston wear ring is made from Turcite, which is chemically similar to Delrin. The wear rings are made by these guys: http://www.tss.trelleborg.com/globa...earrings/hydraulic-wearrings-guide-rings.html
The aluminum cylinder heads show more wear than the valves...
Nylon and Delrin (acetal) have excellent butane resistance.
Designing a pump to last isn't difficult, but recovery pumps are essentially made to be light and disposable which is why they are affordable.
There are actually lots of pumps which are oil-free and designed to pump gases like butane but eff-me senseless are they expensive.
I like these: http://www.haug.ch/teg-(2-5.5kw).htm?id=20
I can dig up the quote I got, but we are talking north of $50k for a 5hp unit. The smallest (0.5kw) are around $15k
Rix, Blackmer and others make nice units but all are big, heavy industrial units that are expensive. Making a sub-$2k unit for this purpose is not easy. Making a hermetic, all stainless pump won't be possible for under $5k even in high volume.
Anyway, my two cents for today.
Peace,
RB
The crank side of the Appion piston is essentially open to atmosphere, which is a drawback and necessitates careful pre-run leak testing but... there is Zero chance of crankshaft bearing lube entering the butane stream.
Both the piston and cylinder are most likely 6061 aluminum. Both are hard anodized, and the cylinder looks to be impregnated with dry lube.
Anodizing is quite cool on a microscopic level, when subjected to current the surface develops a microscopic honeycomb which can be filled with dye (colored anodizing) or lubricants. When freshly anodized aluminum is dipped in hot water the honeycomb swells and traps the dye or lube inside.
I've actually been very surprised at how little wear I've seen on the cylinders. Virtually none after 500+ hours.
Any of my units that have failed (my system runs 2 Appions and recovers 25 liters/run) only had leaky seals, no visible wear.
I've also used a Promax which wasn't successful. More on that later.
I used hard plastic as a generalization. The valves are nylon or Delrin and the piston wear ring is made from Turcite, which is chemically similar to Delrin. The wear rings are made by these guys: http://www.tss.trelleborg.com/globa...earrings/hydraulic-wearrings-guide-rings.html
The aluminum cylinder heads show more wear than the valves...
Nylon and Delrin (acetal) have excellent butane resistance.
Designing a pump to last isn't difficult, but recovery pumps are essentially made to be light and disposable which is why they are affordable.
There are actually lots of pumps which are oil-free and designed to pump gases like butane but eff-me senseless are they expensive.
I like these: http://www.haug.ch/teg-(2-5.5kw).htm?id=20
I can dig up the quote I got, but we are talking north of $50k for a 5hp unit. The smallest (0.5kw) are around $15k
Rix, Blackmer and others make nice units but all are big, heavy industrial units that are expensive. Making a sub-$2k unit for this purpose is not easy. Making a hermetic, all stainless pump won't be possible for under $5k even in high volume.
Anyway, my two cents for today.
Peace,
RB
Hi Rickys bong
Thank you very much.
Your response is a model of how to respond to issues like this. I have been trying to provoke this from many, many oil guys (mostly IRL), and have been quite disappointed in the results. It is frustrating to serve up a fat slow one over the plate for someone to knock out of the park, but instead they come over and punch you in the head.
I was hoping for this to happen here, as I feel the folks in this subforum here at ICMAG are a cut above the average bear. I was righter than I knew! lol Good form Rickys bong, I am impressed.
And it was easy right? I asked some simple questions, and you answered them promptly and in a manner that I think most people would find satisfactory and reassuring. You were not angry, dismissive, defensive or evasive. People subconsciously distrust people showing these hallmarks of deception, even if they are not actually deceiving. You demonstrated youir due diligence, and your calm manner reflects the confidence of someone who has come to a conclusion objectively, without bias or anything to hide.
This is so, and looking for used units from the food industry is a fruitful path I'm told.
I also wonder about units that are lubricated with an H1 grade synthetic. I haven't had the time to look into this enough to come to any determination though.
Hmm, that's higher than I thought. How did you determine this?
Well, thanks again. I think everyone else should thank you too, you really stepped up here, and hopefully set the mold for the future.
mofeta
Thank you very much.
Your response is a model of how to respond to issues like this. I have been trying to provoke this from many, many oil guys (mostly IRL), and have been quite disappointed in the results. It is frustrating to serve up a fat slow one over the plate for someone to knock out of the park, but instead they come over and punch you in the head.
I was hoping for this to happen here, as I feel the folks in this subforum here at ICMAG are a cut above the average bear. I was righter than I knew! lol Good form Rickys bong, I am impressed.
And it was easy right? I asked some simple questions, and you answered them promptly and in a manner that I think most people would find satisfactory and reassuring. You were not angry, dismissive, defensive or evasive. People subconsciously distrust people showing these hallmarks of deception, even if they are not actually deceiving. You demonstrated youir due diligence, and your calm manner reflects the confidence of someone who has come to a conclusion objectively, without bias or anything to hide.
This is so, and looking for used units from the food industry is a fruitful path I'm told.
I also wonder about units that are lubricated with an H1 grade synthetic. I haven't had the time to look into this enough to come to any determination though.
Hmm, that's higher than I thought. How did you determine this?
Well, thanks again. I think everyone else should thank you too, you really stepped up here, and hopefully set the mold for the future.
mofeta
Chonkski
Member
I agree^^^ I am following this intently.
I thank all who has both opposed and reassured hope for active recovery as we all know it today.
GW, RB, and Mofeta, I give you guys my specific thanks in stirring this discussion into the right directions. This is what forums are all about, I wish I had more technical input from an engineering perspective, although again, that is what I come to forums for.
Like many, my future in this industry lies heavily on these few distinguishing years of finding the proper routes of procedure.
With safety and health in mind, I must say, I am a nervous wreck the past couple of months. With all of these findings,explosions, and attacks on hydrocarbon extraction in general..
I thank all who has both opposed and reassured hope for active recovery as we all know it today.
GW, RB, and Mofeta, I give you guys my specific thanks in stirring this discussion into the right directions. This is what forums are all about, I wish I had more technical input from an engineering perspective, although again, that is what I come to forums for.
Like many, my future in this industry lies heavily on these few distinguishing years of finding the proper routes of procedure.
With safety and health in mind, I must say, I am a nervous wreck the past couple of months. With all of these findings,explosions, and attacks on hydrocarbon extraction in general..
Chonkski
Member
Thank you GrayWolf for the added sweet relief you provide in your detailed explanations!
Very reassuring, I must admit that these claims made me feel like some kind of crook for using active recovery. I should have never even doubted that you didn't consider any of these possibilities before hand. Although, I'm glad this subject has come to light.
Either way, The haskel should used for mass production in commercial application for medication. But it's good to know that the more affordable option is safe for now, until things change.
Hi Gray Wolf
I guess I haven't been clear. I am trying to help you guys!
Let me spell it out.
I had already come close to determining on my own that most of these pumps probably posed little danger of contamination. Since I don't use them personally, and have never taken one apart, I had some simple questions.
I could have bought a pump or two and inspected them, but I thought, hey, I am going to be in a place soon where I know that many oil makers that use these pumps will be gathered. I will ask them these simple questions that they should be able to answer off the top of their heads in a minute or two.
I won't go into detail, but this did not go very well. Much fear and loathing, as they say, was forthcoming. It escalated rapidly, and my questions were met with suspicion, anger, dismissal, ad hominem attacks, evasions etc. I had to leave!
This intrigued me. As they say "The coverup is always worse than the scandal." I was pretty sure there was no significant danger, but these guys sure acted like someone with something to hide. I was pretty confident though, that there was nothing to hide, and that these guys were just so defensive etc that they were shooting themselves in the foot.
This was months ago, I have gone around and tried the same thing on numerous occasions. I asked simple to answer questions, in as friendly a way as possible, of many people. The results ranged from dismissal ("You don't know what your talking about, leave me alone" when I hadn't "talked" about anything, just asked questions) to quite bad, wow, again, I won't go into detail, but some very poor judgement was shown by some of these guys.
I thought "Man these guys need some help!"
I thought I would try it here, and although I would not be offensive, I would not use the same kid gloves I had used elsewhere. I thought, hey I should be able to up to an oil guy here at IC and just say "Hey, convince me that the pump your using isn't poisoning people." I thought I would make the challenge a little harder by adding "Looks potentially dangerous to me, metals, lubricants blah blah".
I knew that it could either go well, or not so well. To tell the truth, it seemed at first to be going the wrong way. Frankly, I thought it would deteriorate rapidly, like it had IRL. Wow was I wrong. You guys are lucky to have Rickys bong contributing here. He has either studied this stuff, or is naturally talented. He basically conducted a clinic on how to interact with the public in a manner that gets you what you want. I was all ready to reveal my motivations and role as Devil's Advocate, and then give some tips on PR (for FREE! I am not cheap, so hey..), but I think that is unnecessary now.
I will leave one nugget though, a generalization that can help with a productive mindset and approach:
IN GENERAL, when dealing with the public, TONE is more important than substance. Most people are not rational. They reach conclusions and come to determinations based on feelings, and these feelings are governed by subconscious reactions to cues delivered by the speaker. I mentioned some of these cues in my previous post. (This has been demonstrated in this thread, both in the publicly visible comments here, and the rep messages I've gotten) You do have to have good factual backing, but the wrong attitude will override the most iron-clad empirical evidence EVERY time when dealing with the public. Being correct is not enough. Sad but true.
I have some ideas/strategies for dealing with the problems concentrate makers are going to have with public opinion in the coming years. These problems will be significant, and without proper care could be more severe and last longer than necessary. I will have a whitepaper on this issue completed in the next quarter. (Anyone interested can PM me, and I will put you on the list of people to receive it when done.)
Other than that, I am outta here, and do not plan to comment in this thread again.
Well, I hope I have contributed something of value to someone here.
See you again sometime GW. I have been working on something that is going quite well, that I think you would find interesting. You will be one of the first people I show it to.
mofeta
I guess I haven't been clear. I am trying to help you guys!
Let me spell it out.
I had already come close to determining on my own that most of these pumps probably posed little danger of contamination. Since I don't use them personally, and have never taken one apart, I had some simple questions.
I could have bought a pump or two and inspected them, but I thought, hey, I am going to be in a place soon where I know that many oil makers that use these pumps will be gathered. I will ask them these simple questions that they should be able to answer off the top of their heads in a minute or two.
I won't go into detail, but this did not go very well. Much fear and loathing, as they say, was forthcoming. It escalated rapidly, and my questions were met with suspicion, anger, dismissal, ad hominem attacks, evasions etc. I had to leave!
This intrigued me. As they say "The coverup is always worse than the scandal." I was pretty sure there was no significant danger, but these guys sure acted like someone with something to hide. I was pretty confident though, that there was nothing to hide, and that these guys were just so defensive etc that they were shooting themselves in the foot.
This was months ago, I have gone around and tried the same thing on numerous occasions. I asked simple to answer questions, in as friendly a way as possible, of many people. The results ranged from dismissal ("You don't know what your talking about, leave me alone" when I hadn't "talked" about anything, just asked questions) to quite bad, wow, again, I won't go into detail, but some very poor judgement was shown by some of these guys.
I thought "Man these guys need some help!"
I thought I would try it here, and although I would not be offensive, I would not use the same kid gloves I had used elsewhere. I thought, hey I should be able to up to an oil guy here at IC and just say "Hey, convince me that the pump your using isn't poisoning people." I thought I would make the challenge a little harder by adding "Looks potentially dangerous to me, metals, lubricants blah blah".
I knew that it could either go well, or not so well. To tell the truth, it seemed at first to be going the wrong way. Frankly, I thought it would deteriorate rapidly, like it had IRL. Wow was I wrong. You guys are lucky to have Rickys bong contributing here. He has either studied this stuff, or is naturally talented. He basically conducted a clinic on how to interact with the public in a manner that gets you what you want. I was all ready to reveal my motivations and role as Devil's Advocate, and then give some tips on PR (for FREE! I am not cheap, so hey..), but I think that is unnecessary now.
I will leave one nugget though, a generalization that can help with a productive mindset and approach:
IN GENERAL, when dealing with the public, TONE is more important than substance. Most people are not rational. They reach conclusions and come to determinations based on feelings, and these feelings are governed by subconscious reactions to cues delivered by the speaker. I mentioned some of these cues in my previous post. (This has been demonstrated in this thread, both in the publicly visible comments here, and the rep messages I've gotten) You do have to have good factual backing, but the wrong attitude will override the most iron-clad empirical evidence EVERY time when dealing with the public. Being correct is not enough. Sad but true.
I have some ideas/strategies for dealing with the problems concentrate makers are going to have with public opinion in the coming years. These problems will be significant, and without proper care could be more severe and last longer than necessary. I will have a whitepaper on this issue completed in the next quarter. (Anyone interested can PM me, and I will put you on the list of people to receive it when done.)
Other than that, I am outta here, and do not plan to comment in this thread again.
Well, I hope I have contributed something of value to someone here.
See you again sometime GW. I have been working on something that is going quite well, that I think you would find interesting. You will be one of the first people I show it to.
mofeta
Now what I heard was double rod pneumatic cylinder..... and this is a direction I want to explore.
What I have assumed is eventually an industry specific idea like this would come along. If you rip all these recovery machines apart what you have is just a compressor, pneumatic or electric drive. Ultimately we will need to have reliability, field serviceability and oil-less design.
What GW(and thank you sir for a cogent defense) says is correct. Under the current sets of regulation(WA&CO), an explosion proof pump and system with an engineer's stamp(plus city/county/state regs)is legit. But if/when this goes nat'l mofeta's point may become more valid.
I would like to see a GCMS/LCMS report with decomposition products or pump products before we start demonizing active systems. The fear mongering post that started this lacks ANY evidence. "The tests necessary to do so would be easy, though expensive by private citizen standards, to carry out" This forum seems to be a do-ocracy. So do it if you believe you're correct. GW has spent aplenty on tests, and he is 'retired'.
Lets all be friends!!! I mean that. Every one of these posts helps advance a conversation. One that helps determine our collective futures. I'm new here, so I may sound like a fool, but Ohhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
What I have assumed is eventually an industry specific idea like this would come along. If you rip all these recovery machines apart what you have is just a compressor, pneumatic or electric drive. Ultimately we will need to have reliability, field serviceability and oil-less design.
What GW(and thank you sir for a cogent defense) says is correct. Under the current sets of regulation(WA&CO), an explosion proof pump and system with an engineer's stamp(plus city/county/state regs)is legit. But if/when this goes nat'l mofeta's point may become more valid.
I would like to see a GCMS/LCMS report with decomposition products or pump products before we start demonizing active systems. The fear mongering post that started this lacks ANY evidence. "The tests necessary to do so would be easy, though expensive by private citizen standards, to carry out" This forum seems to be a do-ocracy. So do it if you believe you're correct. GW has spent aplenty on tests, and he is 'retired'.
Lets all be friends!!! I mean that. Every one of these posts helps advance a conversation. One that helps determine our collective futures. I'm new here, so I may sound like a fool, but Ohhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Hi Mofeta!
If you read your first post while walking around the elephant, you may note a few places where it may have lent itself to misinterpretation, given your stated goal.
Usually highly polarized words like vehemently, absurd, and subterfuge draw a stronger reaction than simple inquisition, so I try to minimize my use of them when trying to communicate with folks who may not agree with every thing I have to say.
Peace and good luck with your new project!
OK, let's explore such a device.
By using a double rod, single piston pneumatic cylinder, the rod area on both sides of the piston would be the same, so the displacement would be the same as it cycled back and forth.
They could be plumbed in parallel or series, depending on whether single stage or double stage performance is needed.
With sealed chambers on both sides of the piston, piston ring leakage is not a safety issue, and rod seal leakage could be addressed by using multiple PTFE O-ring seals, with a vent chamber between two of them, which can be plumbed to a tank under vacuum or to a more suitable remote location.
You could use conventional off the shelf stainless ball checks for the intake and exhaust ports, facing opposite directions.
Cycling it back and forth, is easy using an air cylinder like the Haskel does, but uses a bunch of air. A mechanical linkage could do the same thing, using an eccentric link to a counterbalanced flywheel.
High displacement, low piston velocity would mean less heat, which means higher efficiency and lower wear.
It could be run by anything from a flat belt drive off the back of vehicle wheel at a distance, a water wheel, or to sealed a fully enclosed, fan cooled electric motor with NEMA 7 controls.
HashoftheTitans
Member
I am about to invest in some equipment to add onto a buddy's 5lb bhogart. I was wondering if anyone has much experience with the CTS TR21 recovery pump. I'm thinking of giving it a try instead of the Appion. I was also wondering if anyone has tried allowing a slow trickle of liquid butane on the inlet side of the pump during recovery to help lubricate it and reduce wear and tear.
