poison co2 generator

[newestguy]

Got some pics of the issues it caused. I wasn't really trying to document every aspect at the point I was taking these pics I can't remember if I had brought in the organic soil and coco plants yet, but again this was a condition across the board effecting plants in different medias fed from different solutions that where all different sizes.

This was the sag they would do, it looked a lot like overwatered or VPD suffering plants (again, parameters perfect, different medias, different solutions) I believe at the time of these pics I had things set around 77-79 with 50-55% RH. These are some of the most forgiving parameters I am aware of. Definitely not as aggressive as things can run, but obviously things had problems.

 

[newestguy]

The other look they would get is almost a salt buildup/mag def canoe look. (to clarfy I mean turgidity would increase and they would be splayed out like they had a salt buildup, but the leaves would canoe like a mag def. Also interestingly enough these would begin to look N toxic at this point, which was one of the issues I had fought in the previous months. I felt like ratios that have always worked and are well excepted by the community would all of a sudden cause N toxicity. Again, I know this looks like a PH root zone issue, you just have to remember different medias all healthy as fuck, would melt quickly in this room.

 

[newestguy]

One final thing (sorry can't edit or post more than 5 pics to a post, so lots of posts for now)

The damage from whatever this is hung on in the plants, I feel like I am losing more old growth than I normally would but all new growth flowers are incredible. The difference is amazing, just basically had to put up with fall colors a couple weeks early.

 

[growshopfrank]

If I was in your shoes I would hook up some sort of ventilation so that there could be some air changes throughout the day to see if there is any improvement in the plants growth and vigor
It could be something off gassing or even some bad plastic in the irrigation or watering system
And just for shit and giggles I would carefully inspect the plants for pests including the root zone with at least 20x because you never know

FWIW I understand that this isn't your first rodeo, I'm not trying to talk down to you its just trying to trouble shoot this in a logical progression
Sealed rooms can make your head hurt real bad at times...

 

[testymctester]

Crazy

Crazy

I'm pretty sure I have experienced this issue before. I was growing in a 8x8 sealed tent with mini-split, dehuey, and CO2 generator 3 years ago. I battled round after round of vigorous plants that vegged in a different area and would then suffer when they hit this flower spot. I didn't see improvement until I turned the gas down/off.

This was the first and only sealed setup I have ever run. I have been growing with "fresh air" for the last 3 years because I couldn't figure out what was happening. It's crazy for me to see this thread now.

I just moved into a new spot and have an outside shed I want to convert into a sealed room. I'll be sure to have some fresh air in and outs this time around to see if that makes the difference.

 

[newestguy]

If I was in your shoes I would hook up some sort of ventilation so that there could be some air changes throughout the day to see if there is any improvement in the plants growth and vigor
It could be something off gassing or even some bad plastic in the irrigation or watering system
And just for shit and giggles I would carefully inspect the plants for pests including the root zone with at least 20x because you never know

FWIW I understand that this isn't your first rodeo, I'm not trying to talk down to you its just trying to trouble shoot this in a logical progression
Sealed rooms can make your head hurt real bad at times...

No worries at all bro, I totally understand, cover the simple stuff first. Kind of the problem is that I did all that. I approached sealed very carefully. Started with air exchange plus co2 and even then suffered issues. I sealed up more and had issues, by the time I ran it completely sealed I kicked myself for not doing that first. I absolutely would have caught these issues to begin with. I was too afraid of a sealed environment. Turns out there a little tricky to balance but once you do they never change a bit. I love them. Honestly nothing to be afraid of, unless you end up with this issue. Really the only thing that could cause it to not be the generator is if it turned out the controller was bad. I don't think it is based on quick calculations about how long it would take to reach saturation. Its not right on what I think it should be but its not that far off. I do think I am gonna grab a sentinel cchh4 or whatever. I want it so I can hit environmental levels off the bottles late in flower. I really like running sealed, hate to even switch on the air exchange to ripen them.

I'm pretty sure I have experienced this issue before. I was growing in a 8x8 sealed tent with mini-split, dehuey, and CO2 generator 3 years ago. I battled round after round of vigorous plants that vegged in a different area and would then suffer when they hit this flower spot. I didn't see improvement until I turned the gas down/off.

View Image

This was the first and only sealed setup I have ever run. I have been growing with "fresh air" for the last 3 years because I couldn't figure out what was happening. It's crazy for me to see this thread now.

I just moved into a new spot and have an outside shed I want to convert into a sealed room. I'll be sure to have some fresh air in and outs this time around to see if that makes the difference.

That looks very much like the issue. I can kind of see the same mag def, n tox there that is characteristic of whatever this is. Really wish I would have detailed this better. My goal here in starting this thread is really to let others know that its not normal. I definitely experienced the negative effects of whatever this is even when I had exchange. I ran it both actually air cooled (fans on an environment controller in the winter) and also with just a passive exhaust with the ac running. Both had issues. Not nearly as bad as completely sealed but it does still create insta schwaag in the sense that it seems to effect terpine oil production pretty bad. Also I never felt like i got nearly the stack and swell that I would normally. It seemed as though it created an increased maturing of the plant that killed yield and quality by the end.

 

[testymctester]

I can definitely remember the insta-schwag. Ugh. Strains I had previously run struggled and finished all fucked up in this spot. I couldn't figure it out.

So, what's your thought then if it is not air exchange? I had a CAP propane 4-burner C02 gen running off store bought Blue Rhino gas. My flame was blue when I checked it out.

I'm starting to work on a new room this weekend and was planning to solve the old problem by incorporating air exchange into the room design.

 

[newestguy]

I can definitely remember the insta-schwag. Ugh. Strains I had previously run struggled and finished all fucked up in this spot. I couldn't figure it out.

So, what's your thought then if it is not air exchange? I had a CAP propane 4-burner C02 gen running off store bought Blue Rhino gas. My flame was blue when I checked it out.

I'm starting to work on a new room this weekend and was planning to solve the old problem by incorporating air exchange into the room design.

My guess is that the autopilot (and probably the blueprint) are just clones of the cap products. It seems to me that when cap went out of business last year both of those companies popped up over night vending near exact copies of all of the cap products. I hated cap but used to use them because I could get the stuff cheap. Sometimes cheap isn't what its cracked up to be.

I can definitely promise you that air exchange will not solve the problem if you are in fact having the same issue I was (which I believe you are based on the very unique characteristics of the problem).

Someday I will have to try some other brands of co2 gens but for now im just too afraid. I am using bottled gas, and while its a pain its soooooo nice not to have this problem.

I would either straight air cool or go to bottled gas. If you want to though you buy another co2 gen, that would be awesome because then you could tell me if it keeps happening. Since you have seen the problem you could identify it again. I probably will give up at some point and try a sentinel or something, just not doing it now.

I am honestly afraid this problem is more common and people just think they are having trouble with a sealed room. Honestly as long as the infrastructure is there to cool and dehu the room, sealed is extremely desirable.

 

[Mikell]

I'm not sure why you asked for advice if you already have all the answers...

Definitely the poison was most noticeable with the room completely 100% sealed.

periodic venting slowed the crash

When the generator ran all new growth would sag

the room ran better when pulling negative pressure with a 6" fan filter combo.

You had a room that ran perfectly, until you added a burner. Things went down hill, until you added some fresh air, upon which it slightly improved. Then, you switched to bottled, and things took off. Seems straight forward, at least from here.

I think I even tried an active intake, turning down the intake fan with a rheostat, not positive I left that on for long, because the burner just ran non stop.

We ran an intake under a timer, 5 minutes an hour was more than sufficient.


Maybe get an O2 meter, so you can observe the action of combustion depleting the rooms oxygen. At the very least, it would verify or dismiss that as the cause.

 

[the gnome]

The atlas 7 that was controlling that generator is currently controlling the bottled gas with no issues. I do not suspect it being the problem. I have not re calibrated or checked it with a second meter (wish I could but gonna wait awhile before buying anything else). One of the reasons I trust the meter is I am able to calculate the time it will take the bottle to bring the room up to correct saturation at the right PPM. So far I have always seen it on an appropriate amount of time.
.

how many ppm's did you have in the room with the burner?
do you have a Co2 monitor that can tell you what your actually running?
and not a controller that you set specific ppm's by entering a set point value.
I'm not familiar with your unit so if it has a display... my bad

 

[newestguy]

I'm not sure why you asked for advice if you already have all the answers...

Definitely the poison was most noticeable with the room completely 100% sealed.

periodic venting slowed the crash

When the generator ran all new growth would sag

the room ran better when pulling negative pressure with a 6" fan filter combo.

You had a room that ran perfectly, until you added a burner. Things went down hill, until you added some fresh air, upon which it slightly improved. Then, you switched to bottled, and things took off. Seems straight forward, at least from here.

I think I even tried an active intake, turning down the intake fan with a rheostat, not positive I left that on for long, because the burner just ran non stop.

We ran an intake under a timer, 5 minutes an hour was more than sufficient.


Maybe get an O2 meter, so you can observe the action of combustion depleting the rooms oxygen. At the very least, it would verify or dismiss that as the cause.

It seems like I have all the answers but that is because I covered the easy stuff. This is definitely an issue effecting more gardens than people realize. I am posting this in an effort to help my friend, I fixed my problem. There is some by product of combustion that in the right circumstances seems to cause a very specific set of conditions. I feel like addressing it and getting it out there may help others.

As far as using an o2 meter in the room, thats an interesting idea. I do not think i have ever seen an environmental o2 meter. I do have a DO meter for water, don't imagine thats gonna help at all. Honestly, I do not suspect there is too little oxygen in there. The lamps are air cooled. The hoods are the newest generation of the magnum xxxl's (which I love) they have 4 different wing nuts that seal them down and a gasket. I am happy with the seal, but there is no doubt in my mind that some ambient air is brought into the room this way (I push air through the hoods, not pull it). I honestly think the only people that could consider a room too well sealed, to where oxygen levels dropped off, would be someone without air cooled lamps a just straight up hermitic fucking seal on everything.

One of the worst things about this problem is if anyone looked at the plants they would suspect root zone issues, PH issues, and maybe some overfeeding.

how many ppm's did you have in the room with the burner?
do you have a Co2 monitor that can tell you what your actually running?
and not a controller that you set specific ppm's by entering a set point value.
I'm not familiar with your unit so if it has a display... my bad

I had it hooked up to a atlas 7 which is a set point controller. It doesn't read out an actual PPM in the room you can set either 1000, 1250, or 1500. It shows you how high up that scale you are (ie you have it set to 1250 and it needs to enrich, the 1000 will be solid and the 1250 will blink, the solenoid or burner will be activated. I have eyed that controller a lot, in no way can I say beyond a shadow of a doubt it is accurate. I can say I have re calibrated it per there directions several times, It never seemed to make a difference, when I would bring it back inside it would read the same as when I took it out.

Really the last step I can imagine is to get another controller and run them opposite each other. I wouldn't mind having two on hand anyway, just gotta get in there and do it. I am thinking of going with a sentinel chhc4. I like that it has some extra features. Not too much benefit for me in this room but it would be nice. Best of all I could set 500-600 and let them ripen without turning on the air exchange.

 

[the gnome]

the road I'm going down is things are bad using a gas burner,
using the bottled co2 and no probs.
pretty much looks like the gas burner is the culprit,
now...why?
something may be going on with the controller interacting with burner..
and
if your not getting anything as far as an accurate read out of your ppms
thats a weak link in the figuring out what really going on?
since you good with the tank you may just keep going with that,
I'm naturally curious about the why's and how's of things like this.

at any rate having a good Co2 monitor is a good idea anyways.
knowing your ppms could save your life,
a guy here went in his room after the controller dumped the tank,
he passed out heading for the great gig in the sky...
luck was on his side, his wife found him and drug him out of the room.

but anyways, i use a green air SPC-1 Co2 controller/monitor with read out that is very accurate.
and i also have a green eye co2/temp/rh data logger with read out.
kinda accurate, usually within a 100-130ppms of my green air.
after calibration the green eye is good for 5-7days.
it's not a quality unit imo, compared to the green air anyways

 

[newestguy]

the road I'm going down is things are bad using a gas burner,
using the bottled co2 and no probs.
pretty much looks like the gas burner is the culprit,
now...why?
something may be going on with the controller interacting with burner..
and
if your not getting anything as far as an accurate read out of your ppms
thats a weak link in the figuring out what really going on?
since you good with the tank you may just keep going with that,
I'm naturally curious about the why's and how's of things like this.

at any rate having a good Co2 monitor is a good idea anyways.
knowing your ppms could save your life,
a guy here went in his room after the controller dumped the tank,
he passed out heading for the great gig in the sky...
luck was on his side, his wife found him and drug him out of the room.

but anyways, i use a green air SPC-1 Co2 controller/monitor with read out that is very accurate.
and i also have a green eye co2/temp/rh data logger with read out.
kinda accurate, usually within a 100-130ppms of my green air.
after calibration the green eye is good for 5-7days.
it's not a quality unit

I really do believe the co2 ppm controller to be acurate. While I do not have a second meter to check it against I intend to get one. I believe I will find that for all intents and purposes it was acurate. I think a good indication is that it takes approximately the amount of time it should given the flow setting of the regulator to achieve saturation.

I will get another meter before too long, but it will more than likely take me a month or so mostly based on that it will ultimately serve as an environment controller and safety backup for the air cooling. Don't think I could even get in there and hook that up now if my life depended on it.

While I can't say 100% positively that the controller is accurate I very much suspect the burner.

I am super envious of your setup. You basically have two great controllers. Don't know much about greenair but based on price and to some extent reputation I believe them to be some higher end units out there.

I honestly believe this is a somewhat common issue. I think the horticultural industry as a whole has seen this before. I believe this may be why they phased most natural gas burners out of commercial greenhouses. I haven't been able to find the article talking about that, but did find a couple others documenting ethylene damage in the horticultural industry.

http://www.greenhousegrower.com/plant-culture/ethylene-in-the-greenhouse/

http://www.hort.cornell.edu/mattson/leatherwood/

Besides the insta schwaag effect of long term exposure I think its interesting how it increases the speed of senescence, which is something I definitely noticed. I found that if I had a nug come off or if I took a taster branch out, they where always good, ultimately it turns out, better than once the plant reached what we would assume to be its point of maturation.

I bet you we are gonna start seeing new generators. Either low nox or some kind of completely sealed infrared arraignment. I have hopes for low nox, not sure I think the infrared ceramic element would solve the problem. The low nox stuff makes sense because they designed the burners in the 80's to combust in a different way that helped eliminate NO2 (which was combining with other gasses and causing acid rain). I have not been able to find any info on low nox as it relates to ethelyne but it stands to reason it could help eliminate the problem.

I think this is something that is gonna be less of a problem in a larger commercial space that is using a lung room. It seems like that in a larger space the generator is going to come on and stay on for a longer amount of time, ultimately achieving reliable combustion for the vast majority of the time its on. Also whatever byproducts of combustion that are produced are spread over a much larger volume of air. I certainly know people running sealed environments with lung rooms successfully, but they tend to be larger physical spaces. That is actually why I thought I could fix or minimize the problem by going down to 1 or 2 burners and periodically venting the room. It didn't help me with this generator but it makes sense why it would work, and from what I have gathered that has been an acceptable solution for some people. This is why I suspect this particular generator to be sub standard. Its hard to believe that it is operating as it was designed and yet still so reliably causing the issue. As time and money allows i will definitely try some other generators.

Basically I think any petro based co2 gen is going to create ethylene and sulfur and whatever else is causing this, but it seems like the better designed ones have less of a problem somehow. What the other companies are engineering differently I couldn't begin to tell you but it must be something. Also it seems to be reflected in price. It would seem to me that the greenair company better be doing something different if all there gear costs 3 times more (and I suspect that they are)

 

[newestguy]

the road I'm going down is things are bad using a gas burner,
using the bottled co2 and no probs.
pretty much looks like the gas burner is the culprit,
now...why?
something may be going on with the controller interacting with burner..
and
if your not getting anything as far as an accurate read out of your ppms
thats a weak link in the figuring out what really going on?
since you good with the tank you may just keep going with that,
I'm naturally curious about the why's and how's of things like this.

at any rate having a good Co2 monitor is a good idea anyways.
knowing your ppms could save your life,
a guy here went in his room after the controller dumped the tank,
he passed out heading for the great gig in the sky...
luck was on his side, his wife found him and drug him out of the room.

but anyways, i use a green air SPC-1 Co2 controller/monitor with read out that is very accurate.
and i also have a green eye co2/temp/rh data logger with read out.
kinda accurate, usually within a 100-130ppms of my green air.
after calibration the green eye is good for 5-7days.
it's not a quality unit

Sorry if I missed it but what generator are you using? I am impressed with the quality of the other two monitoring devices your using. I definitely want to get one of those greeneyes to keep in the room. Took me awhile to find them, but it looks like they are about 150.

 

[Granger2]

Buy a cheap Carbon Monoxide monitor/alarm, seal the room. See what happens. Good luck. -granger

 

[the gnome]

Sorry if I missed it but what generator are you using? I am impressed with the quality of the other two monitoring devices your using. I definitely want to get one of those greeneyes to keep in the room. Took me awhile to find them, but it looks like they are about 150.

I'm using a $112 tankless hot water heater on a DIY set up
the money I saved allowed me to upgrade yo a better quality controler like the green air
the burner was $450-500 and by the chart and room size it would be on 6-7min at a pop....
didn't like that because of heat issues.
mine is on for 30 seconds....max.
it has a different burner on it also, not like the mushroom thingies
it has the rows with many small holes.

btw, i noticed you mentioned nat gas as a fuel for the burner,
curious, are you using it or propane

 

[newestguy]

Buy a cheap Carbon Monoxide monitor/alarm, seal the room. See what happens. Good luck. -granger

I wish i would have done that! I have some CO detectors around. No way im turning that thing on with anything in there but I will turn it on when the room is empty and see if it triggers the detector.

I'm using a $112 tankless hot water heater on a DIY set up
the money I saved allowed me to upgrade yo a better quality controler like the green air
the burner was $450-500 and by the chart and room size it would be on 6-7min at a pop....
didn't like that because of heat issues.
mine is on for 30 seconds....max.
it has a different burner on it also, not like the mushroom thingies
it has the rows with many small holes.

btw, i noticed you mentioned nat gas as a fuel for the burner,
curious, are you using it or propane

I know a few people using the tankless heaters as a generator. I might have to give that a try later. Did you go run to waste on it or do you have a closed loop type arraignment?

I always used propane as a fuel for generators, was tempted to run gas for NG but never have done it. The reason I mentioned that, and the reason that I will not ever do that now, is because on the whole the horticultural industry is ditching NG and going propane. I guess they had more issues with NG generators (for them its heat I believe, the co2 is just a byproduct of heating the greenhouse)

 

[Gry]

What an interesting and neat thread.

 

[Mikell]

Alllllright. So maybe found something.

For one thing, you can try raising your temps closer to the low 80s, (tying in to the whole reason we can raise CO2, when the earths atmosphere was different and temperatures were warmer). There are calculations for specific ppm of CO2 to temp ratio, I think Snype posted them here, though I may be wrong.

Anyway,

Got this at Tea Aitch Sea Pharmer of all places. Linked Thread *Oh yeah right, we can't link to other cannabis websites. That would upset the balance of the universe. Power trippin' down the hiiiiighwaaaay.......*

Easy enough to change the url. Stupid to have to, but easy enough...

Specifically, this post

A few posts below, a novel way to test for ethylene.

Cuphea and tomato both make excellent indicator plants. Cuphea will abscise all of its flowers (Figure 2), and tomato will bend its leaves downward as if they're wilted - but they will remain turgid (epinasty) when ethylene is present even in very low concentrations. Such responses usually show up within 24 hours of exposure, although lower greenhouse temperatures can slow the response."

The initial problem sounds similar, CO2 burner in a fully sealed room, plants droop and falter.

Summarized, the CO2 burner depletes O2 levels, causing incomplete combustion of the propane, leading to ethylene and SO2 build up.

In the video you posted, the generator burns clean. What you would want to look for is the appearance after a few cycles/hours. The OP fixed it by cycling an intake 10 minutes every three hours, though on the last page of the linked thread it looks like, if you're savvy at math, you can work out a custom cycle.


Maybe?

Spurr on CO2

How that thread was never stickied....


At the least I've significantly added to the general confusion XD Maybe helped, maybe not, but some good reading if you enjoy that sort of mental racking.

 

[newestguy]

Those are good finds, it is an interesting problem. I think the really pertinent part in the case of this generator is that no matter how it was set up it, if it was possible to reach the desired co2 concentration the other gas would build up enough to cause the symptoms.

It seems like in most of the other threads about it people were able to fix it by periodically venting the room. That definitely did not work here. I think it would be a fair assessment to say that different generators (or maybe different room configurations) cause different amounts of the gas.

The pic that testymctester posted is a spot on perfect example of this problem, Im glad he took it. I never pulled a plant out and really documented it. I think this happens more than people think, just on varying levels.

I'm pretty sure I have experienced this issue before. I was growing in a 8x8 sealed tent with mini-split, dehuey, and CO2 generator 3 years ago. I battled round after round of vigorous plants that vegged in a different area and would then suffer when they hit this flower spot. I didn't see improvement until I turned the gas down/off.

View Image

This was the first and only sealed setup I have ever run. I have been growing with "fresh air" for the last 3 years because I couldn't figure out what was happening. It's crazy for me to see this thread now.

I just moved into a new spot and have an outside shed I want to convert into a sealed room. I'll be sure to have some fresh air in and outs this time around to see if that makes the difference.