Malaysian airliner crashes in E. Ukraine

[gaiusmarius]

Thats what is called "projection" folks.........textbook example.






.

so glad we have you here to tell us what's going on. i think any objective reader will see that you have not actually argued one point. you have just made various comments attacking individual posters.

you might think this is a good tactic, i.e. attack the messenger and ignore the message, but it only works if no one is pointing it out. as soon as people realize whats happening you lose them.

what i find interesting is that it's mostly the same people using this tactic and it always seems to be pro US empire building. it seems there is nothing too ridiculous for certain people to believe, as long as it's the US or maybe Israel saying so, well i can just about understand our IDF members when it comes to that conflict as it's self interest, but Ukraine? what right has the US got to dictate events in Ukraine?

how was it that Janukovich was forbidden from letting his cops use force to maintain power, but now it's fully ok for the new gov in Kiev to use the armed forces, including scud missiles to kill their own people including woman and children? funny how that bunch was safe when they occupied gov buildings in Kiev, but when the east does so they get destroyed by shelling and air power.

 

[armedoldhippy]

fair enough, thats your view. i just wonder which particular propaganda i have swollowed? are you saying that Alex Jones is a Russian propaganda source? or are you saying this letter i shared by these retired intelligence professionals is Russian propaganda? just wondering?

of course i hope this doesn't lead from a proxy war to a world war, but any student of history knows that smaller misunderstandings have lead to war in the past.

what sure doesn't help peace and stability in the world, is making wild accusations without evidence before any investigation is complete. can we at least agree on that?

no one has said that Alex Jones is a Russian propaganda source. what almost everyone in the world EXCEPT conspiracy fruitloops realize is that he is not a reliable source of ANYTHING except paranoid rantings that even the National Enquirer would not/could not put into print with a straight face. quoting anything from his site just makes anyone look ridiculous, irrelevant, & disconnected from reality to a degree that is simply astounding. you would look more credible dressed in rags & tossing eyes of newt & snake tears into a cauldron while muttering under your breath & waving your arms about over your head. but of course, WE are delusional & YOU know the TRUTH! right?

 

[gaiusmarius]

no one has said that Alex Jones is a Russian propaganda source. what almost everyone in the world EXCEPT conspiracy fruitloops realize is that he is not a reliable source of ANYTHING except paranoid rantings that even the National Enquirer would not/could not put into print with a straight face. quoting anything from his site just makes anyone look ridiculous, irrelevant, & disconnected from reality to a degree that is simply astounding. you would look more credible dressed in rags & tossing eyes of newt & snake tears into a cauldron while muttering under your breath & waving your arms about over your head. but of course, WE are delusional & YOU know the TRUTH! right?

this is just more of the same, ignore the content due to who is publishing it. ignore that it's people from the intelligence agencies that are writing it not Jones or his team. is it my fault that MSM ignores anything thats not inline with the officially sanctioned narrative. as i've said before i have a wide range of sites i will look at, from cnn all the way to al jazeera.

 

[Green lung]

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what i find interesting is that it's mostly the same people using this tactic and it always seems to be pro US empire building. it seems there is nothing too ridiculous for certain people to believe, as long as it's the US or maybe Israel saying so, well i can just about understand our IDF members when it comes to that conflict as it's self interest, but Ukraine? what right has the US got to dictate events in Ukraine?

how was it that Janukovich was forbidden from letting his cops use force to maintain power, but now it's fully ok for the new gov in Kiev to use the armed forces, including scud missiles to kill their own people including woman and children? funny how that bunch was safe when they occupied gov buildings in Kiev, but when the east does so they get destroyed by shelling and air power.

Man watching Russian state media so much has really infected your brain.......you got the Kremlin talking points down pat.

I'm surprised you haven't called the Ukrainians Nazis, junta ect yet.




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[gaiusmarius]

is this a more acceptable URL? still Russian propaganda?

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/obama-release-ukraine-evidence.html

why is it not one of you is disputing any of the main points made in that document i wonder? just too much common sense to be argued i guess.

 

[gaiusmarius]

Man watching Russian state media so much has really infected your brain.......you got the Kremlin talking points down pat.

I'm surprised you haven't called the Ukrainians Nazis, junta ect yet.




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actually i have both sides talking points down pat and it seems to me that seeing is believing. not sure whats up with the plane, but the events in Kiev are on the record, including the use of armed military force against the people in the east that were not happy with the revolution in Kiev. or is that just the Russian view? do you even know what the UN is saying right now? what about the OSCE? they stated today that they witnessed shells landing in Russia from Ukraine. they were observing the border at the time.

as for nazis, do you dispute that 2 nazi leaning parties svoboda and right sector, are now part of the Ukranian government?

 

[bombadil.360]

is this a more acceptable URL? still Russian propaganda?

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/obama-release-ukraine-evidence.html

why is it not one of you is disputing any of the main points made in that document i wonder? just too much common sense to be argued i guess.

lets be fair now gaius; people have given their pints of view about the issue, with all of our limitations, and our limitations are basically that we simply cannot trust completely the sources of information that we get; you know that, other posters know that, and I know that.

however, there is a tendency with some of you, and by 'you' include yourself in what I'm going to tell you: to rather believe a little bit more the point of view presented against the so-called 'official' point of view; and that's fine, if anyone knows not to trust the 'official' point of view of things is us ganja lovers.

but, the 'official' point of view is not always out to get you and deceive you, and that's something many of you need to come to terms with.

everything is not black and white, in other words.

returning to the subject at hand, if we want to speculate further with the information the media is providing us with, we'd need to set a standard of what would constitute a proper investigation into the matter as to find out what really happened with that airplane; but how do we set such a standard if we are not willing to trust any source of information?

so did the rebels tamper with the evidence or not? who do we trust is telling the truth about that crucial matter? without that info, we cannot even establish who may end acting as an impartial investigator of the events.

imo, trying to figure this out is out of our league. hopefully, like many other posters have expressed, only time will tell the truth, like it has happened in past incidents of a similar nature.

peace

 

[Hermanthegerman]

Did anybody hear something about the black boxes? I think the malaysians got them since more than 2 weeks?

Thats what I want to hear something about?

 

[gaiusmarius]

sorry for the deletes, but just insulting the other party in a debate leads us no where.

lets be fair now gaius; people have given their pints of view about the issue, with all of our limitations, and our limitations are basically that we simply cannot trust completely the sources of information that we get; you know that, other posters know that, and I know that.

however, there is a tendency with some of you, and by 'you' include yourself in what I'm going to tell you: to rather believe a little bit more the point of view presented against the so-called 'official' point of view; and that's fine, if anyone knows not to trust the 'official' point of view of things is us ganja lovers.

but, the 'official' point of view is not always out to get you and deceive you, and that's something many of you need to come to terms with.

everything is not black and white, in other words.

returning to the subject at hand, if we want to speculate further with the information the media is providing us with, we'd need to set a standard of what would constitute a proper investigation into the matter as to find out what really happened with that airplane; but how do we set such a standard if we are not willing to trust any source of information?

so did the rebels tamper with the evidence or not? who do we trust is telling the truth about that crucial matter? without that info, we cannot even establish who may end acting as an impartial investigator of the events.

imo, trying to figure this out is out of our league. hopefully, like many other posters have expressed, only time will tell the truth, like it has happened in past incidents of a similar nature.

peace

i am totally prepared to be fair, show me where people have given their opinions on this document?

in fact i have missed in this thread the other parties putting up convincing stuff that backs their point of view. in fact 99% have not even committed to a point of view and rather just spend time with the old label of conspiracy theorist and worse. when one is but asking questions.

yes we ganjah rebels have a tendency not to trust governmental propaganda, as you say we have been lied to so much that most of us think we have good reason to doubt things when they happen in this way. but i would argue that it's not an automatic reaction, at least with me it hasn't been, i was fully prepared for anything at the beginning of this horrible tragedy. meaning i was ready to believe it could have been the rebels on purpose or not, or even the Russians some how. basically, i had an open mind, it was only the way things developed with all those amazingly provocative headlines day after day, before any investigation had even been launched, that slowly made me doubt more and more as the assertions became more ridiculous and continued to be based on social media rather then hard evidence.

so yeah despite having a healthy skepticism to what governments tell me in their own interest it was the way this was handled that has me insisting that the investigation needs to be completed before we declare more sanctions, oh wait too late. despite no official results in the investigation, we declare more sanctions, which in it's self is an act of war, just like blockading a country is an act of war according to international law.

according to the Malaysian investigators that were handed the black boxes, they were not tampered with, Dutch investigators who were given the boxes by the Malaysians, also confirmed they were not tampered with, also the English investigators who have the boxes now also confirmed that the boxes were intact and had not been tampered with.

but the main point you seemed to have missed is that all i and these gents from the intelligence services are saying, is wait for the investigation to announce the official results. sure we can speculate and ask questions, but anyone making accusations at this point is just a war monger using this for political/strategic gain.

i mean Ray McGovern used to write the presidential daily intelligence briefing, if someone should know what they are talking about it's him. and he says put up real evidence or shut up mr Prez.

i do not see it as out of our league to solve this puzzle, we might not get it right, but on the other hand we can just as easily get it right as not. show the convincing evidence, that Obama said they had and it's settled. them not showing this evidence makes it very likely that it doesn't exist. in fact the beer bottle story is sounding more and more likely, lol. would explain why they don't show the satellite images hey? there is no reason not to show such images unless you got some thing to hide. what that some thing is, is the question, maybe the Ukrainians drunk at the buk station, or maybe some secret capacity or source is included. which it is, who can tell?

Thats what I want to hear something about?

as mentioned above, the black boxes were handed to Malaysian investigators under the condition that they hand them to a international black box analyzing organization, after that they gave them to Dutch investigators, who then handed them to a British black box analyzing company.

 

[Hermanthegerman]

The evaluation of the blackboxes takes a lot of time, I thought it´s quicker to read the datas.

I´ve found a very good, neutral Report but sorry it´s in german.

http://www.austrianwings.info/2014/07/mh17-abschuss-hintergruende-zum-russischen-raktensystem-buk/

 

[bombadil.360]

but the main point you seemed to have missed is that all i and these gents from the intelligence services are saying, is wait for the investigation to announce the official results. sure we can speculate and ask questions, but anyone making accusations at this point is just a war monger using this for political/strategic gain.

i mean Ray McGovern used to write the presidential daily intelligence briefing, if someone should know what they are talking about it's him. and he says put up real evidence or shut up mr Prez.

what evidence is there for either side as of now available to us? except from the gossip in the news, none.

also, aren't these "gents" from the intelligence service part of the establishment? how come you are willing to trust them now when probably in the past they have helped fed the public bullshit on other issues?

my stance on the issue is simply that we do not know what happened, we cannot know and only time will tell.

and since that is my stance, I'll leave you guys to speculate further without intruding.

peace

 

[D. B. Doober]

hey im Bill from Chicago and just wanted to ask do you think Howard Stern has a big penis?


http://youtu.be/YRWen6392yA

 

[gaiusmarius]

what evidence is there for either side as of now available to us? except from the gossip in the news, none.

also, aren't these "gents" from the intelligence service part of the establishment? how come you are willing to trust them now when probably in the past they have helped fed the public bullshit on other issues?

my stance on the issue is simply that we do not know what happened, we cannot know and only time will tell.

and since that is my stance, I'll leave you guys to speculate further without intruding.

peace

thats the whole point, this group of former intelligence professionals are not saying it was like this, or like that, they are saying don't jump the gun with accusations before you have a official investigation, or show the conclusive proof.

they are not making accusations, they are just making the point that so far no real proof has been shown, which makes all the sanctions war like rhetoric and legislation, incredibly premature and plain unprofessional. that in it's self says something imo. can you say getting in your story before the other guy? it's a tactics that liars tend to use a lot.

as for trusting the Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity , well it's easier to trust people that are talking plain common sense saying lets wait for the investigation, then it is to trust the side giving me all kinds of stories which have changed day by day, with the state department press speaker referring to you tube, twitter etc, as evidence of a certain narrative etc. trusting the ones that say wait for the investigation seems more objective then the ones saying Putin did it, believe me i know, look on facebook, that proves it. you get the idea.

the last part of your post is actually the basic message i've been preaching; stop jumping the gun and wait for time to allow the truth to get exposed, i'm still hopping some hero will leak the footage from that special satellite that was watching eastern Ukraine at the time of the shoot down.

 

[Pinball Wizard]

the black boxes tell the whole story & they were sent to rehab

 

[armedoldhippy]

if there is anything more foolish than trusting current intelligence operatives, it would be trusting former intelligence operatives that are no longer in the loop & may have an ax to grind. I'm still waiting to hear something from the BBC on the "black boxes". since the investigation/reading of those boxes are being undertaken there in Great Britain, it would seem like the BBC will break any news. but, the report may well go to the Netherlands & Malaysia first since it is their citizens/airline primarily involved. Australia lost over 2 dozen citizens as well. any more news on the Russian non-com supposedly sending selfies of himself to friends with geo-location on some of his pix placing him in Ukraine? very embarrassing if true.

 

[armedoldhippy]

the black box report was supposed to be ready by Aug. 1st ???

 

[Pinball Wizard]

the black boxes got the license plate # of that hit & run SAM11

 

[gaiusmarius]

the black boxes got the license plate # of that hit & run SAM11 [URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=61&pictureid=73060&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

well the Russians are claiming, as well as many witnesses on the ground, (see deleted bbc report earlier in the thread) that there was a military jet up there with the passenger jet, the Russians want to know what was being said between the pilot and the tower as well as what if anything was said between the alleged military jet and the passenger jet, the flight path apparently shows what looks like an avoidance maneuver seconds before it disappears from radar, in which case the chat records might shed some light.

 

[armedoldhippy]

"witnesses on the ground" they have pretty good eyesight to be able to tell a military from a civilian plane over 6 1/2 miles up, even if it is a perfectly clear day...which is why those missile systems are supposed to be connected to 2 different radar systems. that is the only way that they function as intended. no radar, no picking up the civilian jets transponder.

 

[jump117]

Man watching Russian state media so much has really infected your brain.......you got the Kremlin talking points down pat.

I'm surprised you haven't called the Ukrainians Nazis, junta ect yet.

There is no need to trust someone's propaganda, just listen to what they say on TV, online and at meetings.
Do you understand in Ukrainian? I understand. And I can confirm that, unfortunately, it is true that they are really the Nazis.

By the way, do you know that Jesus was a Ukrainian?
Know also, that all other nations were descended from Ukrainians as a result of degradation, they have observed the emergence of the Roman Empire, but not crushed her only out of their generosity to the weak, so teach them the history textbooks for the past 23 years.

Here are a one of bright latest hits (in Ukrainian), have a fun
http://youtu.be/mhYyj5l9Lx0