Vote NO to legalize cannabis....Or else

[bentom187]

Commercial and residential operations can exist side by side and there is documented evidence of this fact.

Agreed.

But, as they say, death and taxes are the only certainties in life.

Evolving past this stumbling block put upon humanity by the state and the thieves called politicians which constitute it, would be nice though. Since everything it fund's could be as accessible as a magazine subscription voluntarily purchased. It also wouldn't reinforce the economic disparities in society.

There are more arguments to be made for private law also, but at length they may bore people to death. To be brief it is a market solution and its easy enough to research. I would start with Jhon Hasnas and Bob Murphy.

 

[Seaf0ur]

You can ignore the facts that you choose to troll...
Whats your plan for enforcement on your "new taxes for everyone" laws? unconstitutional door-to-door searches by taxmen? is that what you're in favor of? laughable plan... you're an idiot troll who has only responded to 1% of the facts laid out. and with incorrect assumptions at that. I'm done here.

 

[budtang]

You can ignore the facts that you choose to troll...
Whats your plan for enforcement on your "new taxes for everyone" laws? unconstitutional door-to-door searches by taxmen? is that what you're in favor of? laughable plan... you're an idiot troll who has only responded to 1% of the facts laid out. and with incorrect assumptions at that. I'm done here.

How are those black market growers being taxed under current policies? They're not? Well, then a system of voluntary compliance is a fuck load better than your stupid, broken piece of shit.

You're "done here" because you lost the fucking the debate. Now, get the fuck out.

 

[Jhhnn]

Yeah, but don't you only grow 6 plants? That's like a child with a lemonade stand projecting nationwide sales figures for the lemonade industry. lulz

I'm not trying to be insulting, but a guy with your experience isn't exactly in a position to make educated predictions like that. Any time I hear you making these predictions for the future I feel like I'm listening a Gypsy woman in a parlor rub a crystal ball. It's hard to take anything you say about the future of the cannabis industry seriously. Especially, when there are thousands of documented cases here on the forum of people successfully growing for a living out of their homes in medical states. These states aren't absent big commercial operations that your so convinced would put residential growers out of business, either.

Commercial and residential operations can exist side by side and there is documented evidence of this fact.

It's not rocket science.

1. Much of the current growth in the industry is blue sky speculation, pure & simple. Speculative markets exhibit enormous price swings.

2. CO is a small market. State population is only ~5.2M people. we do have a strong tourist trade on top of that.

3. Legal personal grows limit demand for commercial product, both med & rec. Their numbers are unknowable simply because rec growing requires no paperwork of any kind.

4. A64 licensing is structured on a "must issue" basis. The State cannot limit licensing other than by price. If you meet the requirements & have the money, you will be licensed. The number of licenses is approaching thousands, even with a high upfront investment.

5. Large operations benefit enormously from economies of scale. Everything they use is a helluva lot cheaper per unit of production when purchased by the truckload. Dialed in, greenhouse growing is enormously less expensive than growing under lights.

6. Legal business operates happily on much, much smaller margins & ROI than the black market or even the limited specialty MMJ market. The price of greenhouse tomatoes is illustrative. Add another 50% in taxes- it doesn't change a thing from a grower's perspective.

7. When the rules change in October, retailers will not be required to grow their own product at all. They can just buy it from growers.

None of that is my opinion. It's factual information.

Based on that, my opinion is that we will soon achieve over production of commercial product, market saturation. The way it's being tracked, producers cannot expand distribution into the larger national market. What's grown here has to be sold here.

I'm sure that there are a lot of different business strategies in play, but growers who never planned on taking any losses simply will not survive a product glut. On the way down, they'll sell for a song just to cut their losses. It's the same in any speculative market since the dawn of civilization.

I recognize that it's difficult for growers who could sell all they could produce to appreciate that, but it's something that participants in any speculative commodity market know full well. Oil. Wheat. Rice. Coffee. Cotton. Oranges. Whatever.

It will eventually settle into a non-speculative situation, but we're nowhere near that.

I got letters in the mail from the IRS after only TWO YEARS of growing for a living on the black market. You can get away with it...for a while. But, as they say, death and taxes are the only certainties in life. This is the BIG REASON I would rather be licensed. It's not about $$$$$ at all. It's about safety and security. It's about having access to the services that taxes provide. Mainly, law enforcement services that deter thieves and crooks.

I don't need your laws to make $$$$$. I need your laws to be safe while doing it. Not only do I have to worry about the IRS, but I have to worry about every thieving piece of shit in the world who will want to rob my ass when they find out that I have an illegal grow operation, and thousands of dollars in cash made from it, in my home. I can't call the police if these assholes try to rob me because I'm not a legal operation. Thieving pieces of shit will know that and that's the fucking point.

Your stupid ass laws put people's lives at risk.

You put your own ass at risk. You are not forced to grow marijuana at all. Most people don't. I can appreciate you wanting what you want, but you won't find it in CO. What you will find is a lot of people rather happy with an alternate scenario. Obviously, it's not for everyone. People in other states are entirely free to create their own systems & ways of providing legal cannabis. We have no objections to that.

Good for you, but there are those of us with a lot more ambition, skill, knowledge, and understanding for cannabis horticulture than you. We're not satisfied with 6 plants. Anyone who believes residential operations wouldn't be successful in light of all this documented evidence that proves otherwise is simply displaying an abysmal ignorance of cannabis horticulture. Half of the seed breeders on this forum are running a successful business out of their home and competing against larger breeding operations successfully. They have been for the past 2 decades.

Do you know anything about the history of cannabis horticulture? Or, were you just going to base your analysis on the small sample size of incompetent growers that you've personally seen fail?

And you were doing so well. Almost reasonable, in fact. I'm sure that bootleggers & "medicinal" distillers expressed much the same sentiments at the end of alcohol prohibition. Those concerns were swept aside by the will of the people, something much bigger than either one of us. 80 years later, there are still dry counties & towns, also moonshine in some parts of the country. People fermented their own wine & brewed their own beer through it all. I doubt that cannabis will turn out much different.

 

[budtang]

I'm sorry Jhhnn, but your Gypsy parlor futuristic predictions are unreadable. I can't even get past the first sentence.

 

[bentom187]

And you were doing so well. Almost reasonable, in fact. I'm sure that bootleggers & "medicinal" distillers expressed much the same sentiments at the (1.)end of alcohol prohibition. Those concerns were swept aside by the will of the people, something much bigger than either one of us. (1.)80 years later, there are still dry counties & towns, also moonshine in some parts of the country. People fermented their own wine & brewed their own beer through it all. (2.) I doubt that cannabis will turn out much different.

There is a bit of contradiction in your statement.

(1.) It was the end of prohibition for some alcohol. Hence the market for illegal booze and the labeling of the other illegal alcohol producers as criminals.

(2.) You agree that MJ will turn out the same. Which we agree with and why I (we) don't support it (legalizing instead of repealing) as a method of keeping everyone out of jail. There will still be people going to jail for growing a plant.

Thank you for making our argument for us.

 

[monsoon]

Sorry about misunderstanding your explanation of the warehouse grow, jhnnn. Any idea what these cats will do after 70/30 is taken out of the pic? (or was it already? Might have been in with the changes first of this month)

Ditto seaofour. This whiner is somewhere else...thankfully....and can fuck off and die. No clue. No game. No balls. No garden. Too funny. He'll really be ballin' it when he hits Cali and rents someone else's house to grow in with all of those skills. ZZZZZZzz.

Good thing McDonald's is always hiring. Fuckin tweekers.

 

[Shcrews]

this political shit is hard to read.

fuck taxes they mostly go to evil things like prisons cops borders and war.

weed should be untaxed like air

 

[Jhhnn]

I'm sorry Jhhnn, but your Gypsy parlor futuristic predictions are unreadable. I can't even get past the first sentence.

If you can't get past "It's not rocket science" then you're working in a realm where you lack competence. That can be due to a variety of factors, willful ignorance & erroneous existing belief apparently near the top of the list.

If I need to explain "blue sky speculation" we probably won't have a productive discussion. Had I gone any deeper, referenced a near vertical demand curve set against a variable supply curve & the effect on pricing & profitability in that scenario, it's unlikely I'd have done much better.

 

[bentom187]

this political shit is hard to read.

fuck taxes they mostly go to evil things like prisons cops borders and war.

Weed should be untaxed like air

The truth has been spoken.

They have food and water and land on the list don't be surprised if that changes.

 

[Jhhnn]

Sorry about misunderstanding your explanation of the warehouse grow, jhnnn. Any idea what these cats will do after 70/30 is taken out of the pic? (or was it already? Might have been in with the changes first of this month)

Ditto seaofour. This whiner is somewhere else...thankfully....and can fuck off and die. No clue. No game. No balls. No garden. Too funny. He'll really be ballin' it when he hits Cali and rents someone else's house to grow in with all of those skills. ZZZZZZzz.

Good thing McDonald's is always hiring. Fuckin tweekers.

I don't know that the 70/30 rule changes for the med side at all, which is where those folks found their niche. It was one of those things where we had a few phone conversations, hooked up at their grow, tried to figure out if we fit together. It never went further than that. It's still open if either party sees a way to move forward, but that hasn't happened, probably never will. I wish them well, believe them to be honest & trustworthy if we ever come together somehow.

The rule change earlier this month opens up licensing beyond existing MMJ licensees. The rule change allowing for retailers to just be retailers, like liquor stores, convenience stores, whatever, goes into effect Oct 1. That's huge, I think, even if many don't realize it. The whole business dynamic changes radically.

 

[Jhhnn]

There is a bit of contradiction in your statement.

(1.) It was the end of prohibition for some alcohol. Hence the market for illegal booze and the labeling of the other illegal alcohol producers as criminals.

(2.) You agree that MJ will turn out the same. Which we agree with and why I (we) don't support it (legalizing instead of repealing) as a method of keeping everyone out of jail. There will still be people going to jail for growing a plant.

Thank you for making our argument for us.

And thank you for pointing out that libertopian notions of perfection can interfere with the interests of 99.999% of the population.

If your reason for living is sticking it to the Man, there's always a way to do that & a price to be paid for faulty technique.

 

[monsoon]

I don't know that the 70/30 rule changes for the med side at all,

This rule (vertical integration) was abolished on July 1. Since all the retailers now are MMC owners...it is change across the board...med and rec.

Info here: http://mmjbusinessdaily.com/colorado-welcomes-new-rec-entrepreneurs-abandons-vertical-integration/

You nailed it though Jhnnn. It's gonna get cut-throat crazy for those stepping in the ring Oct. 1. Without a doubt, more will fail than will succeed.

My buddy has a new license with a 3600 count. LOL. Should be interesting to watch it all unfold for him...one way or another.

 

[bentom187]

And thank you for pointing out that libertopian notions of perfection can interfere with the interests of 99.999% of the population.

If your reason for living is sticking it to the Man, there's always a way to do that & a price to be paid for faulty technique.

You assume that 99% feel the way you do and assumes no alternative to get to the ends of enjoying the plant without threats of government violence. And libertarian notions are for dealing with imperfection in a voluntary manner and does not guarantee perfection.

The laws and government along with taxation is dealing with imperfection by force and coercion. A truly utopian and primitive idea.

If you feel that would get in the way of that method then yes. For the better of course.

Thanks for reminding us of the police state and its tax leaches I prefer not to enable and encourage them.

 

[Seaf0ur]

Know what... I'll sub back in to this comedy of drama... I wanna see how long it takes officer budtang to get banned LOL...
and budtang... that +rep was an accident trying to multi-quote.. wish I could take it back...
in fact you make me wish they'd bring back -rep or "unhelpful post"... (please mods)

...Good for you, but there are those of us with a lot more ambition, skill, knowledge, and understanding for cannabis horticulture than you.

LOLOLOLOL PICS OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!!! WHERE'S YOUR "TOP SHELF"?

"Derp Derp. You can't grow fruit. Derp Derp. Ignore the failures of our policies because of this irrelevant fucking fact. derp derp. Forget about how we're criminalizing half the breeders on this forum. Derp derp. You said something innaccurate about Red Cards so that negates every legitimate point you made. DERP FUCKING DERP."
Would you care to address this point? Instead of focusing on Red Cards. Which, have nothing to do with with this point:

WALK IT HOW YOU TALK IT... FIX YOUR GARDENING PROBLEM IN YOUR STATE LIKE YOU WANT US TO FIX LEGALIZATION... YOU'RE LETTING EVERYONE WHO LIKES TOMATOES DOWN... SHOW US HOW EASY IT IS TO CONTROL THE LEGAL PROCESS, PLANT YOUR TOMATOES, HIRE YOUR LAWYER... FOLLOW YOUR DREAMS...
AND RED CARDS HAVE NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH GROWING OR RETAIL MARKETS, YOU'RE SHOWING YOUR LACK OF KNOWLEDGE AGAIN...

Good job on fucking schools over you irresponsible little fucking children.

GOOD JOB ON BEING A DECENT HUMAN BEING CAPABLE OF AN ACTUAL DEBATE

How are those black market growers being taxed under current policies? They're not? Well, then a system of voluntary compliance is a fuck load better than your stupid, broken piece of shit.

You're "done here" because you lost the fucking the debate. Now, get the fuck out.

YOU IGNORE FACTS YOU DON'T LIKE YOU WHINE ABOUT THINGS THAT ARE NOT FACT AND YOU GET MAD AND CALL NAMES... ITS NOT A DEBATE, BOTH SIDES MUST HAVE COGNITIVE FACTS FOR A DEBATE, THIS IS ADULTS TRYING TO EXPLAIN TO LITTLE JOHNNY WHY HE CANT HAVE ICE CREAM AT BEDTIME

I'm sorry Jhhnn, but your Gypsy parlor futuristic predictions are unreadable. I can't even get past the first sentence.

SHOWING THAT I.Q. AGAIN? OR IS IT AN ISSUE WITH READING COMPREHENSION?

 

[Seaf0ur]

Anyone who doesn't understand that the federal government will need to be enticed, or coerced into removing cannabis from the list of scheduled drugs is a fool. You cannot force things with a stick... you need a carrot. And in addition, any "legalization" only helps that cause. Children have demands that they want met. Adults understand working hard for what you want over years. I don't know what officer budtang wants... in one sentence he wants full freedom, in the other, overbearingly unconstitutional tax men go door-to-door and search your house for an untaxed cannabis grow.

This debate should be: How can we entice or coerce the federal government into declassifying cannabis altogether?

 

[monsoon]

Agreed seaf0ur. Blows me away to see the folks who think Schedule 2 is an improvement.

 

[Jhhnn]

You assume that 99% feel the way you do and assumes no alternative to get to the ends of enjoying the plant without threats of government violence. And libertarian notions are for dealing with imperfection in a voluntary manner and does not guarantee perfection.

The laws and government along with taxation is dealing with imperfection by force and coercion. A truly utopian and primitive idea.

If you feel that would get in the way of that method then yes. For the better of course.

Thanks for reminding us of the police state and its tax leaches I prefer not to enable and encourage them.

Sent using tapatalk from an elliptical polar orbit around one of the moons of Uranus, apparently.

I think that the vast majority of citizens believe govt to be an unfortunate necessity, with democracy in a constitutional republic probably the best yet conceived by the mind of men.

Or, you can yell at the clouds all you want.

 

[Jhhnn]

Agreed seaf0ur. Blows me away to see the folks who think Schedule 2 is an improvement.

Indeed. All scheduled drugs must undergo rigorous testing by the FDA in order to be prescribed by physicians or made available OTC, a process requiring years. At that, they must meet certain standards of efficacy for every prescribed condition. MMJ exists in a grey area essentially outside the law, and may not meet the necessary standards to treat conditions for which people currently use it.

Moving it to a status where it may/must be prescribed is counterproductive & would leave patients in the same grey area as now, maybe worse. It needs to come off the schedule entirely & put into the same status as alcohol & tobacco. Synthetic & semi synthetic preparations sold under prescription like marinol should remain scheduled.

 

[bentom187]

Sent using tapatalk from an elliptical polar orbit around one of the moons of Uranus, apparently.

I think that the vast majority of citizens believe govt to be an unfortunate necessity, with democracy in a constitutional republic probably the best yet conceived by the mind of men.

Or, you can yell at the clouds all you want.

Well I don't think slavery in different formats is that advanced or respectful of peoples rights as individuals. You can piss into the wind all you like.