Dud Identification Collective Knowledge.

[RetroGrow]

genetic event never before seen in marijuana horticulture, and nobody has taken a picture.

WRONG! It's a pathogen. And it has been seen before, just not by you. And there are plenty of pictures, but you chose to ignore them or criticize the grower. You jumped in the end of the thread and started criticizing, without having read the thread. Now you say you have read it, yet you continue to criticize and obfuscate. Reports of this "phenomenon" have been posted since 2011. Of course you never read them, and you are clueless about the scene here in the medical states, where several plagues that you have never seen abound, because of the massive scale of clone/cut trading/selling. Since some of us have been here a long time, we know that the growers you are critiquing are actually accomplished. Yet you talk down to them like you know it all. Of the 56 pages, the most useless posts are your long winded diatribes. Your contribution? Zero!
You live to argue/troll. Since you've proven that you know nothing about this topic, you should really bow out, but you can't help yourself. I believe it's genetic.....

 

[Loc Dog]

WRONG! It's a pathogen. And it has been seen before, just not by you. And there are plenty of pictures, but you chose to ignore them or criticize the grower. You jumped in the end of the thread and started criticizing, without having read the thread. Now you say you have read it, yet you continue to criticize and obfuscate. Reports of this "phenomenon" have been posted since 2011. Of course you never read them, and you are clueless about the scene here in the medical states, where several plagues that you have never seen abound, because of the massive scale of clone/cut trading/selling. Since some of us have been here a long time, we know that the growers you are critiquing are actually accomplished. Yet you talk down to them like you know it all. Of the 56 pages, the most useless posts are your long winded diatribes. Your contribution? Zero!
You live to argue/troll. Since you've proven that you know nothing about this topic, you should really bow out, but you can't help yourself. I believe it's genetic.....

I now see why you were pissed at me, for not reading all. By page five there are different things going on, which should be separate threads. Dudding of clones, is not a big deal. I have never had luck with clones. True signs of TMV are critical. Depending on grow style, and time infected, could be catastrophic.

I would be happy as crap if this is genetic f-up!!!!!!

My initial growth was mutant, but is normal now, but dwarf.

Please let it be crappy DNA.

Will Cloning a plant for 10 years, have mutant offspring. If it does not spread like the plague, it is most likely beat genes. Just my opinion, but I read it here, and heard that in the early 80's.

If you think you have TMV, take infected leaf rupture and rupture Petunia or Cucumber, and see if it spreads. If so, burn it all!!!

 

[bobblehead]

WRONG! It's a pathogen. And it has been seen before, just not by you. And there are plenty of pictures, but you chose to ignore them or criticize the grower. You jumped in the end of the thread and started criticizing, without having read the thread. Now you say you have read it, yet you continue to criticize and obfuscate. Reports of this "phenomenon" have been posted since 2011. Of course you never read them, and you are clueless about the scene here in the medical states, where several plagues that you have never seen abound, because of the massive scale of clone/cut trading/selling. Since some of us have been here a long time, we know that the growers you are critiquing are actually accomplished. Yet you talk down to them like you know it all. Of the 56 pages, the most useless posts are your long winded diatribes. Your contribution? Zero!
You live to argue/troll. Since you've proven that you know nothing about this topic, you should really bow out, but you can't help yourself. I believe it's genetic.....

Your attitude is starting to remind me of storm shadow's. At least you both agree it must be a pathogen... However everyone in this thread is still speculating... no lab tests to confirm anything!

less dick swinging, more lab testing.

 

[RetroGrow]

Your attitude is starting to remind me of storm shadow's. At least you both agree it must be a pathogen... However everyone in this thread is still speculating... no lab tests to confirm anything!

less dick swinging, more lab testing.

Not dick swinging at all. Just counter-punching. I don't pretend to have all the answers, but I do know it's not all grower error. There have been a couple of positive TMV tests, but obviously we need much more testing. It has to be a group effort.

 

[Loc Dog]

My current horror is from Adub X GDPS from infected grower -

in the unlikely event that problems arise even after these best practices have been deployed, protocol then would be to cull the stock in question, to do so before it is liable to contaminate anything else (in case the root agent is a communicable one) and to scrub like hell. that's what i did with the adub and the dubtech. it seems to have worked too. i realize what a hard call it is to make, but a plant that has not expressed the genetic traits that it ought to, well past the time when any other explanation will suffice, will almost certainly not bounce back by miracle.

 

[Loc Dog]

your attitude is a testament to the strength of your character. thanks for starting this thread.

what little i know is already up there in my post.

i did get dud adub and dubtech clones from a vendor who used to frequent these boards and who well may be lying in wait here still. without knowing that from the handful he gave me, i propped them out for several generations before flowering them, so i am very skeptical of the "cloning away from" argument that this practice will fix things. though i was unaware of it at the time as i was of the syndrome, the cuts also carried some tarsonemid class mite or another—broad, cyclamen, hemp russet.

the mites were persistent but easy enough to rid myself of, i was never able to bring the plants back, try though i did. if this were the whole of my story, i would be quick to cast my lot with them that blame the broad mites and to chalk the loss of the plants vigor, terps, and trichs to residual damage from the mites. however, in the time that i was tryong to clone away from dud, after i am 100 the mites had been eradicated, i watched the syndrome spread to other plants. the second i observed and logged this, i culled the lot of them. if you are seeing this in your plants, get them out of your room asap if you want to keep the other strains you've got.

the best practices are nothing magical. quarantine, cull, and scrub.

never introduce anything to your room that you have not sequestered in a safe space and observed for a period of at least two weeks.

promptly remove and destroy any plants you find to be affected.

be immaculate. i've said it before and stand by it unequivocally. OCD is actually a desirable trait in a grower.

that's all i've got. i'm here to learn as much as the next guy.

..

 

[stasis]

TMV is extremely rare. An example of the denial associated with this heinous pest became apparent even then. The dispo years ago that I received my first duds ever (after 70 Plus successful runs in and out) had info all over the walls about watch out for TMV. Their clones were infested with BM;s. That was a small dispo on the S mendo coast, how many locals bought their cuts..? Who knows, more than a few.. Then the cuts get disseminated.

 

[Loc Dog]

TMV is extremely rare. An example of the denial associated with this heinous pest became apparent even then. The dispo years ago that I received my first duds ever (after 70 Plus successful runs in and out) had info all over the walls about watch out for TMV. Their clones were infested with BM;s. That was a small dispo on the S mendo coast, how many locals bought their cuts..? Who knows, more than a few.. Then the cuts get disseminated.

I have mine through seeds. Will have test done in next 24 hours!!!!

Be well!!

 

[unitedgrooves]

DUD

DUD

I had this PK (og) since February of this year. From the beginning this plant had issues, the homie did tell me she was a super old clone and was a bitch to root.. So I kept a close eye and gave her my full attention to bring her back to top health. Highly suspecting it to be a dud I took multiple generations of clones before it went into flower. What you see here is a clone 3 generations after the MOM i originally received.

I'm sure most can spot the dud, its the front left of the tent. All these are OGs except 1 pre 98 bubba (front right) all fed same nutes, same medium, same environment. Its hard to see under the HPS but the problem plant has this "dud glow" to it. Its darker green than the rest and will have a slight shine like it was neemed. Other early signs of dudding in veg are super brittle branches that snap off with ease, no smell to the stem when rubbed, slowed down vertical growth instead it will branch out horizontally. Lack of big fan leaves to name a few... NOTE: To all the broad mite freaks, this plant has no broad mites and was scoped like all plants I receive...

These were all flipped the same day and the PK was actually about 6" taller then the rest.. This is pictured at around 10 days in bloom.
Notice how the rest outgrew the PK within 10 days including the Pre 98 bubba.. LOL..


About 5 days after, Another thing I noticed is it starts to stack/flower sites faster than normal plants..



Side view to compare the lack of vigor/stretch.


Notice how close the internodes are? Also look at the weird growth and TMV like distorted leaves that some mistake for broad mite damage.

 

[Loc Dog]

Do not want to sound like a-hole, but this happens to expert growers, who check PH and PPM many times a day. Have grown Auto flowers for years, and have never had anything like this. Unless it is some obscure problem, that only photo's have, it must be virus or pooch screwed genetics. If it replicates to adjacent (shared reservoir) plants, it is virus, if not genetics.

 

[RetroGrow]

TMV is real, and it is out there, as the positive tests prove. There is also Cucumber mosaic virus: Cucumber mosaic virus (CMV) is a plant pathogenic virus[1] in the family Bromoviridae.[2] It is the type member of the plant virus[3] genus, Cucumovirus.[4] This virus has a worldwide distribution and a very wide host range.[5] In fact it has the reputation of having the widest host range of any known plant virus.[6] It can be transmitted from plant to plant both mechanically by sap and by aphids in a stylet-borne fashion. It can also be transmitted in seeds and by the parasitic weeds, Cuscuta sp.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucumber_mosaic_virus
Hemp Streak Virus:
Sunn-hemp mosaic virus (SHMV) is a pathogenic plant virus. It is known by many names, including bean strain of tobacco mosaic virus and Sunn-hemp rosette virus. SHMV is an intracellular parasite that infects plants. It can be seen only through an electron microscope. It is a positive-sense single-stranded RNA virus that causes physical characteristics of spotting and/or discoloration.
Infected crops transmit the virus in a number of ways, but in most cases transmittal requires physical contact. This mean that touching an infected plant, then touching a healthy plant could cause the healthy plant to contract the virus. Using tools to trim an infected plant, then using them on a healthy plant without sterilizing them between uses can result in the transmission of the virus. The virus should be treated like it is airborne since an insect can transmit the virus, from plant to plant, just by flying around and making contact between plants. Hemp mosaic virus is particularly resilient and can infect the soil through the winter and into the following growing seasons for years.
The hemp mosaic virus infects plants of the Cannabis genus. The virus causes cellular mutations, stunted growth, damages plants photosynthesis ability, and more. Cellular mutations usually manifest as discoloration and misshapen leaves. Discoloration usually manifests as yellow or grey mottling that can form a spotted, mosaic, or streak pattern. Misshapen leaves can be the result of damage to the plants at a cellular level, making them appear contorted and/or twisted. The stunted growth can cause a tremendous amount of crop loss due to lower than normal yields. Loses of 25% of flower production or more have been widely observed and reported.
There is no known cure for the hemp mosaic virus or other tobamoviruses. Once a plant has become infected with the virus the host will never be free from infection. The virus is most often cured through incineration of the infected tissues. Plants do have a natural defense in the form of a protein coating that protects the plants RNA. Different strains have varying resiliencies to hemp mosaic virus due to varying levels of the hormone responsible for the production of the protective protein coatings. RNA Pro is a prohormone product that helps stimulate the plants manufacture of that protective protein coating, making the virus' ability to attach to the plant's RNA more difficult. It is the only known treatment for hemp mosaic virus and all other tobamovirus strains.
Any of those symptoms sound familiar? They should if you read the thread. More:
Hemp mosaic virus is known as one of the most stable viruses. It has a very wide survival range. As long as the surrounding temperature remains below approximately 40 degrees Celsius, hemp mosaic virus can sustain its stable form. All it needs is a host to infect. Greenhouses and botanical gardens would provide the most favorable condition for the virus to spread, due to the high population density of possible hosts and the constant temperature throughout the year.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunn-hemp_mosaic_virus

Stasis: We're all aware that you believe it's all caused by broad mites. However there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that it may be something more than that. We are all aware that broad mites cause "duds". We're looking at other possibilities, where the symptoms are slightly different, and where the growers assure us that THEY DID NOT HAVE BROAD MITES. How can you discount all other possibilities?

RNA Pro:
RNA Pro was specifically developed in response to plants that were infected during an outbreak of the Hemp Mosaic Virus in 2010. The product was finally launched in the summer of 2012. It has been the culmination of both, intensive scientific research and laboratory analysis. We have determined through thousands of hours of study RNA Pro’s effectiveness in combating the symptoms the Hemp Mosaic Virus. The product works by increasing a plant’s production of a natural hormone which is responsible for the manufacture of a specific protein coating. This protective coating is what prevents the Hemp Mosaic Virus, Hemp Streak Virus, and other plant viruses from attaching to its genetic material. As a result, RNA Pro successfully prevents mutations in a wide range of crops such as tomatoes, cucumbers, and peppers. Finally there is a product that can help in the treatment of the most pervasive plant viruses. No more low yields and poor quality!
http://www.hempmosaicvirus.com/
I am wondering if this stuff has salicylic acid in it. Betting it does......

Hopefully, people will test for this virus, also.
Don't forget salicylic acid to boost your plant's immune system. Always in my rez.......

Note: OGs are particularly susceptible to TMV.

 

[unitedgrooves]

As a test, during the time I was vegging this dud PK to get ready for flower, I had my clean Ghost vegging right next to it ever since they both rooted, leaves touching and all they vegged for at least a month together.. They didn't share a flood tray and runoff water was drained separately, also I had zero bugs in the room.. Now fast forward 1.5 months later, both went into flower, the PK was a complete dud, the Ghost was completely fine, unaffected.

So from what i've seen this dudding thing doesn't spread by leaves touching. I also use separate sterile scissors to prune, clone each strain, also pour out cloning gels for ea strain. I don't let a suspected plant share a flood tray or clone domes with healthy plants. These are a few things i practice to not spread the aids around.

 

[unitedgrooves]

More Dud action

More Dud action

Here are a few more pics of this dud PK.. This was the 4th generation (slightly healthier) clone grown by my buddy this time in soil. BTW: This plant was submitted to the lab and we are patiently waiting for the test results to come back, the homie will let us all know when that is ready.... I appreciate it brotha..!

Looks kinda normal right.. (Front Right)


Notice how much it stacks, fat dud colas.


Wait a minute, i see the dud starting to peak its ugly head.


The dud is here.

 

[RetroGrow]

As a test, during the time I was vegging this dud PK to get ready for flower, I had my clean Ghost vegging right next to it ever since they both rooted, leaves touching and all they vegged for at least a month together.. They didn't share a flood tray and runoff water was drained separately, also I had zero bugs in the room.. Now fast forward 1.5 months later, both went into flower, the PK was a complete dud, the Ghost was completely fine, unaffected.

So from what i've seen this dudding thing doesn't spread by leaves touching. I also use separate sterile scissors to prune, clone each strain, also pour out cloning gels for ea strain. I don't let a suspected plant share a flood tray or clone domes with healthy plants. These are a few things i practice to not spread the aids around.

Agree, but remember that some strains are resistant to things that damage other strains. Yes, more test results are needed, and I am confident we will get them and figure this out once the test results are in and confirmed by others. To dismiss all this to grower error is absurd.

 

[Crooked8]

It probably wasn't grower error. You probably got a sick or weak cutting.

I got four of them to start. If it was just weak or sick, it would have bounced back like all my other stuff. I mommed three and flipped one. They were green and no deficiency. Just short slow growth with tight nodes. I dunno, even if they were sick. The experiences everyone has had is making us ask, how are they sick? What is this illness? Why is it weak? Thats the whole point of this thread. Wtf was going on there..? I killed them all got new gg and it was a totally diff plant.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I have never had BM, CM, or RM, I have grown a lot of plants in a dozen countries. I have had various viruses, bacterial and fungal disease pathogens most vectored by insect or other pests like nematodes etc even some by the wind I bet.
If you suspect pests or pathogens and if you are in Calif these people are in Davis near the bay area.
You might contact:
http://www.allcropsolutions.com/
And see if they can help, they are Cannabis friendly and say they have a lot of experience with Cannabis pathogens, they told me that.
If anyone uses them please post about anything was good or bad.
-SamS

TMV is real, and it is out there, as the positive tests prove. There is also Cucumber mosaic virus: Cucumber mosaic virus (CMV) is a plant pathogenic virus[1] in the family Bromoviridae.[2] It is the type member of the plant virus[3] genus, Cucumovirus.[4] This virus has a worldwide distribution and a very wide host range.[5] In fact it has the reputation of having the widest host range of any known plant virus.[6] It can be transmitted from plant to plant both mechanically by sap and by aphids in a stylet-borne fashion. It can also be transmitted in seeds and by the parasitic weeds, Cuscuta sp.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucumber_mosaic_virus
Hemp Streak Virus:
Sunn-hemp mosaic virus (SHMV) is a pathogenic plant virus. It is known by many names, including bean strain of tobacco mosaic virus and Sunn-hemp rosette virus. SHMV is an intracellular parasite that infects plants. It can be seen only through an electron microscope. It is a positive-sense single-stranded RNA virus that causes physical characteristics of spotting and/or discoloration.
Infected crops transmit the virus in a number of ways, but in most cases transmittal requires physical contact. This mean that touching an infected plant, then touching a healthy plant could cause the healthy plant to contract the virus. Using tools to trim an infected plant, then using them on a healthy plant without sterilizing them between uses can result in the transmission of the virus. The virus should be treated like it is airborne since an insect can transmit the virus, from plant to plant, just by flying around and making contact between plants. Hemp mosaic virus is particularly resilient and can infect the soil through the winter and into the following growing seasons for years.
The hemp mosaic virus infects plants of the Cannabis genus. The virus causes cellular mutations, stunted growth, damages plants photosynthesis ability, and more. Cellular mutations usually manifest as discoloration and misshapen leaves. Discoloration usually manifests as yellow or grey mottling that can form a spotted, mosaic, or streak pattern. Misshapen leaves can be the result of damage to the plants at a cellular level, making them appear contorted and/or twisted. The stunted growth can cause a tremendous amount of crop loss due to lower than normal yields. Loses of 25% of flower production or more have been widely observed and reported.
There is no known cure for the hemp mosaic virus or other tobamoviruses. Once a plant has become infected with the virus the host will never be free from infection. The virus is most often cured through incineration of the infected tissues. Plants do have a natural defense in the form of a protein coating that protects the plants RNA. Different strains have varying resiliencies to hemp mosaic virus due to varying levels of the hormone responsible for the production of the protective protein coatings. RNA Pro is a prohormone product that helps stimulate the plants manufacture of that protective protein coating, making the virus' ability to attach to the plant's RNA more difficult. It is the only known treatment for hemp mosaic virus and all other tobamovirus strains.
Any of those symptoms sound familiar? They should if you read the thread. More:
Hemp mosaic virus is known as one of the most stable viruses. It has a very wide survival range. As long as the surrounding temperature remains below approximately 40 degrees Celsius, hemp mosaic virus can sustain its stable form. All it needs is a host to infect. Greenhouses and botanical gardens would provide the most favorable condition for the virus to spread, due to the high population density of possible hosts and the constant temperature throughout the year.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunn-hemp_mosaic_virus

Stasis: We're all aware that you believe it's all caused by broad mites. However there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that it may be something more than that. We are all aware that broad mites cause "duds". We're looking at other possibilities, where the symptoms are slightly different, and where the growers assure us that THEY DID NOT HAVE BROAD MITES. How can you discount all other possibilities?

RNA Pro:
RNA Pro was specifically developed in response to plants that were infected during an outbreak of the Hemp Mosaic Virus in 2010. The product was finally launched in the summer of 2012. It has been the culmination of both, intensive scientific research and laboratory analysis. We have determined through thousands of hours of study RNA Pro’s effectiveness in combating the symptoms the Hemp Mosaic Virus. The product works by increasing a plant’s production of a natural hormone which is responsible for the manufacture of a specific protein coating. This protective coating is what prevents the Hemp Mosaic Virus, Hemp Streak Virus, and other plant viruses from attaching to its genetic material. As a result, RNA Pro successfully prevents mutations in a wide range of crops such as tomatoes, cucumbers, and peppers. Finally there is a product that can help in the treatment of the most pervasive plant viruses. No more low yields and poor quality!
http://www.hempmosaicvirus.com/
I am wondering if this stuff has salicylic acid in it. Betting it does......

Hopefully, people will test for this virus, also.
Don't forget salicylic acid to boost your plant's immune system. Always in my rez.......

Note: OGs are particularly susceptible to TMV.

 

[Tonygreen]

...

 

[papaduc]

Just counter-punching

Like in boxing?

In boxing there are rules. Like no hitting below the belt etc. It's so both boxers are in a fair fight, and so the fight is based on skill and intelligence and not just mindless thuggery.

So, if you apply your metaphor to how you talk to people on here, you won't be so quick to stoop to dirty tactics and personal insults.

But then you'll have to rely on skill and intelligence.
And then you'll be punching above your weight.

I don't pretend to have all the answers

...

It's a pathogen!

This fella

 

[papaduc]

The dud is here.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=55119&pictureid=1286318View Image

Right, what is it about that picture that confirms to you that it's a dud?

And what is the NPK ratio of the feed you're using and at what ec are you using it?

 

[Storm Shadow]

papaduc... will you please read the few pages in this link..

What do you think ? This is just a guess, but if you haven't taken the time to read through the tread...its a quick reading and gives you some insight into one theory ...

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$Depart...14324/$FILE/au-2013-olivier-aster-yellows.pdf