Breeding etiquette questions

[DamnUglyDogE]

Some really good feedback here...

Nothing im going to say is meant in any ways towards anyone..lol
Im just thinking out loud and in no way meant to be shared as
anything more than a set of opinions...



Wouldn't it be nice if the established breeders would start the trend towards opening
their work to any that care to work it.

Rather than work towards trying to lock seeds/strains under laws and legal this and that...
Seems so..."Corporate" and I suppose this is why im having such a hard time understanding
why anyone would find fault in another furthering their work... I
m talking as long as credit is given in the lineage and it's well known who has done what...

I understand the Effort,quality and pride factors that get's pointed out time and time again,
yet those would be reasons I would point out to justify my $100 + price and would then
be able to justify knocking down the "New student" trying to also
garner $100+ for a similar version of my work....

This seems to me a more social solution to quite a few issues coming with the introduction
of recreational use laws,world wide...

People like myself that once had to pay for personal smoke and payed no attention
(Though being smokers of local,dank)to the seed scene going on over the last 10-20 years now...

During this period of evolution and spreading of the quality genetics Id say,late early 70's to now...
There seems to have been quite a few bumps and headaches caused by "Hacks" seeking profit
from others,legally dangerous hard work stabilizing the foundation of many if not all
readily available selections we have today.

Yet for someone who started to grow with clones rather than seeds...
Something not possible to me or most people,just 5-6 years ago...
I see other alternatives to the hunt for great mothers....
1000 seeds grows to find 2 keepers... Being the hunt...

Today...
A great breeder will do the selecting of his/her work(hunt) and for whatever reason,
pass out clones of the best mothers...
Be it safety or profit issues, the clones make it to personal grows...

I/anyone can get to the clones ( With a little luck or good reputation ) of these
mothers and without having to grow 1000 seeds ourselves have quite
a mother/Gene pool collection to work from... Now...
Getting the skills and education it takes to do anything worthy with the tools at hand...
Is another subject all together... haha...

I've seen more than one 80 year old driving a Porsche or Ferrari..lol

There is obviously no quick solution to the arts side of the equation and this takes grows
under ones belt a willingness to learn and some would say a "Touch" to achieve...

I'm simply saying it seems possible to me that a passionate smoker of many years that has
a green thumb already... Might just be able to start producing something worthy of having
within a few years and perhaps get to something helpful within a few more...

Let's say... He happens to share prior,current,future work being done in a small volume...
If he get's the opportunity to grow a legendary strain that he desired long before he could
grow and creates a Next Line set of seeds. Wants to share those as well...
That's unethical simply because these was money made ?
It seems unethical to trash the extra seeds not needed or expect
someone to assume all cost of sharing said seed ?...
Let alone ask for permission from any single person to allow me the privilege of putting my effort into
what I want to achieve with a seed made prior to my hands ?...

Simply because it's known who made it...
Perhaps the alternative is to simple exclude lineage and simple sell seed via
awesome flowering pictures and hype machines...
Laws as rules are made to be learned and then to some,broken and circumvented..
The only permission I should need is from the market...

Markets are a bitch to get tricks over on, more than once or twice...
Much less so than trade laws and patent's.. IMO...

Some might call this Mucking up the gene pool but I consider my work shared treasure
hunting opportunity's for the personal smoke grower's looking for flavor VS yield but happy
when they find the combo of 2 from time to time...
To me,the gene pool issue is one of numbers released into the market and just because
someone offers them to the market,no longer automatically means they will move from the shelves...

Personally,as a personal smoke grower 1st and foremost I dont need a 3 pound
tree strain with average taste and head to it.
I don't need 3 pounds of anything... lol

I like a nice mix and I like to grow so what I am after is flavor and 6-10 oz plants
around 100-120 days from seed..(30-40 Veg 60-80 Flower).
Old School Mexican sativa's and California Indica's...

I'll take a 3 oz plant for Flavors and head all day over a pound I don't want to smoke..
If I can get a good hunt for $40 and possibly have something completely unknown pop's up.
Then as a kind of bonus,watch the breeder further the same line himself as I take a little different
approach... Then as time passes, we all could see just how important
approach is to the equation of breeding a stable line, truly is...
Not to mention more possibilities for goodness than only one person's approach...
Competition breeds excellence and sets market value...lol


A great breeder can become less so,just as a nobody
can excel in my book...

So many options now available that you need to show worthiness to move a seed...
Worthiness is very subjective... lol

Point being...

No one should need to seek permission from prior breeders nor worry about some guy
laying claim to your work due to it being off his Hybrid,bla,bla,bla...

The emerging market should be the judge and jury of -
good and bad... Gold and crap... Stay or hit the bricks...

Seems to me... It's getting harder and harder to justify $100+ for a pack of seeds...
Im seeing it talked and mentioned more and more and wonder for (to me-given my chosen path)
obvious reasons how someone could ask $100+ for a pack of 10-16 seeds in today's market,
let alone tomorrows...

It should be the recognized reputation and shown and known skills in the art's that garner the $100+
market and these seeds need to be worthy of being in the market or heavy repercussions
should be had to both reputation and business if you try and jump ahead with a strain or what have you...
These elite seeds would be available on many sites at once and in volume.

There then would be a -$40-$80 level in the market for the self sustaining micro breeder to
share and build his/her skills,gene pool and grows needed to excel and truly contribute to the cause/market...
Sharing their work with limited amounts of packs through a few site's...


Finally I see a $10-$30 market for more than one category of quality...
Could be a personal mission to spread something at cost of sharing.. (Post and handling)
or a breeder that wants out and needs his wears taken quickly...
Not so much for trashed or proven crap seeds...
Personally I see dropping the price of seeds after a few years on the shelves as a
great practice for all offering seeds...

Allows the elites into hand that cant afford $100+ proven seeds but could
go for a good gold hunting adventure at the right price...

So,yeah...

2 cent's...




D.U.D.E...



Wanted to add...
Trust me.. If you want to share your work at some point...
Change your handle,now...lol

Been there myself,Dawg!

Best of luck on your adventure and I hope to see good things coming our way...



.

 

[Dakine]

Sorry BushWeed but you are talking crap and you know it.

To start, the music bussiness is a legal bussiness.

May I ask you somenthing.

If Breeders can claim rights over genetics, couldn´t the third world farmers that have been growing landraces for centuries claim rights to that breeders too?

¿Where starts the right to claim property over genetics?
AHH of course as this farmers are poor, non White , unneducated they have no rights over genetics!!!!.

¿ Can you name a breeder that after profiting from that genetics has gone back to the source of the genetics and somehow, help the local farmers? I can´t remember one at all.....

So as far as I´m concerned don´t talk to me about ethics.

Green house Seeds/Arjan... I swear they went back to where alot of the land races started... Even gave/built a house for one of the families/community

 

[ECtraveler]

Didn't he also pass out his own hybrid seeds to the local communities ensuring a faster degradation of their indigenous strains

 

[JointOperation]

YES ECTRAVELER is CORRECT.. ARYANS PLAN .. was to go there.. collect seeds.. of all the shit he needed .. and then pollute the genetics with his GHS FEM HERMI GENETICS.. so that instead of being able to go on a trip and get landrace genetics.. its now impossible.. very good plan for a GREEDY Business man.. very bad plan for anyone trying to make the canna community a better place by allowing everyone to do there OWN selections instead of depending on others to do the right selection.. alot of keeper selection is done on personal pref. so there could of been alot better shit but Aryan likes SATIVAS so im a guess his keepers would be different then alot of others.

 

[SeedsOfFreedom]

YES ECTRAVELER is CORRECT.. ARYANS PLAN .. was to go there.. collect seeds.. of all the shit he needed .. and then pollute the genetics with his GHS FEM HERMI GENETICS.. so that instead of being able to go on a trip and get landrace genetics.. its now impossible.. very good plan for a GREEDY Business man.. very bad plan for anyone trying to make the canna community a better place by allowing everyone to do there OWN selections instead of depending on others to do the right selection.. alot of keeper selection is done on personal pref. so there could of been alot better shit but Aryan likes SATIVAS so im a guess his keepers would be different then alot of others.

I don't want to get into bashing Greenhouse, but I have to say I am extremely disappointed with the "Strain Hunters" seed bank they started. They hyped up all these famous landrace strains in the documentaries, then all they did was release a bunch of modern hybrids. Where the fuck is the Malawi and the Moroccan?

 

[choom]

@SeedsOfFreedom:
The authentic 'Money Maker' plucked
straight from the bush. It seems I've
almost picked up an African accent
just thinking about these legit lines.

It's going to take time to solidify the
landraces picked up, if they're even
going to release any pure lines and
available in regular. IMHO they should
have waited years more if needed for
a proper launch that's up to par with
what was advertised and lividly hyped.
I'm not one to flame GHS but SHSB was
not at all what they said it would be...
I'd like to see redemption but it's doubtful.

choom(0:

 

[SeedsOfFreedom]

@SeedsOfFreedom:
The authentic 'Money Maker' plucked
straight from the bush. It seems I've
almost picked up an African accent
just thinking about these legit lines.

It's going to take time to solidify the
landraces picked up, if they're even
going to release any pure lines and
available in regular. IMHO they should
have waited years more if needed for
a proper launch that's up to par with
what was advertised and lividly hyped.
I'm not one to flame GHS but SHSB was
not at all what they said it would be...
I'd like to see redemption but it's doubtful.

choom(0:

Your right, I barely expect the regular version. I thought they could at least grow 50-100 seeds, clone them, bud them, find 1 nice plant, and self it. I know its a lot to ask, but come on GH!!!Good thing Ace and Cannabiogen are rocking all the landrace stuff.

 

[choom]

@SeedsOfFreedom: Amen. To keep
this discussion on track, one thing
that really irks me and not sure if
it's already been mentioned; though
what I think is important personally
is how you name the strains offered.
I mean especially if you care about
it too.. things that drive me livid are
when people name shit 'Something
Kush Haze' or 'Bullshit Kush' when
there aren't any kush and or haze
lineages in the genetics being sold
just to try to give it some market
pizzazz; which is deceptive when
you really think to the root of it all.
Seeing a bunch of random 'Kush Haze
Diesel Silver Mullum Fog Thaibubble'
like mash-up names from random
vendors irks me, first instinct tells
me not a single one of those is in
the lineage of the plants in the seeds.

choom(0:

 

[JointOperation]

I don't want to get into bashing Greenhouse, but I have to say I am extremely disappointed with the "Strain Hunters" seed bank they started. They hyped up all these famous landrace strains in the documentaries, then all they did was release a bunch of modern hybrids. Where the fuck is the Malawi and the Moroccan?

ya I actually had a friend that went lived in Amsterdam for 3 years.. and brought back seeds from Aryan n franco... and honestly.. what I think there doing.. is just taking seeds they pull out of plants.. picking the best female.. hitting it with a few MALES.. so that no1 has REAL breeding stock.. or they add a male to it that's not the same strain.. to water it down a bit. so no1 can actually buy there genetics.. and then make copies with there seeds.. they will need to do more work to copy there shit.. especially because they lie.. when I bought this Pure kush seed packs. it was names Pink Kush.. then after I buy them.. it gets changed to Pure Kush..? it don't smell like kush.. lol.. it smells more like Garlicy skunk. then kush.


but ya.. they just went to water down genetics.. so they could keep any NEW up and comers.. from going and collecting Genetics.. so now.. people are saying. ya I got this Maui or whatever .. and its really Maui.. mixed with the church.. or some crap seeds they handed out to the dudes they pulled seeds out of there plants..


AND YES.. WAXING YOUR SEEDS MAKES THEM LAST LONGER.. ALOT LONGER.. TOO. SO MAYBE NOW.. INSTEAD OF HAVING TO WORRY ABOUT OO MY SEEDS ARE OLD I HOPE THEY GERM.. U JUST WIPE THE WAX OFF.. AND GERM.. AND STILL GET A 90% SUCCCESS RATE EVEN AFTER 10-15 YEARS..

ANYWAYS.. YA I WOULD STAY AWAY FROM STRAINHUNTER SEEDS.. AND GHS..

HONESTLY. UNLESS UR LOOKING FOR ARYANS HAZE.. OR SOMETHING THEY ONLY REALLY HAVE..

BUT JUST DONT EXPECT THEM TO BE THE BEST OF THE BEST.. don't get me wrong im sure theres keepers here n there.. but im sure theres less keepers then CSG.. or Karma.. or the other great breeders..

also. I respect Aryan and GHS.. I just wont support someone who spends more time making T-SHIRTS And HATS then GENETICS.. id rather buy from a company who has 2 diff t shirts.. and 100 diff stable genetics.. then someone like GHS that has 100 diff articles of clothing for sale.. and genetics....

lol.. there trying to branch out too much.. that its ruining there reputation..
I have a friend who has been running Aryans haze for 4 years.. and he swears by it.. but took him 3 packs.. to find 1 keeper..

 

[harry74]

Green house Seeds/Arjan... I swear they went back to where alot of the land races started... Even gave/built a house for one of the families/community

That wasn´t a house.

It was Uncle Tom´s Cabin

 

[stoney917]

Wow whens the drop im first in line...

 

[Luther Burbank]

You're misunderstanding the plant if you think there are still true landraces for the GHS shmucks to go collect. They're one of the few businesses big enough to keep lines stable too, if they were so inclined, but they're not. They're in it for the money and their lines are as unstable as a sandbar in a hurricane.

If you've been educated on cannabis breeding and genetics on the forums, the best thing you can do is throw out everything you know, and reexamine the world with your own eyes. The entire foundation is wrong, and everything built upon it.

 

[Ph-patrol]

You're misunderstanding the plant if you think there are still true landraces for the GHS shmucks to go collect.

I feel there are true Landraces to be found just not in the hands of farmers that are cultivating in Jamaica and Columbia or were ever. The plants and seeds found in these area's have no guarantee that there was not impurities breed into the existing Native strains.
I think that is the point your making.

But and a big but. If a strain was growing wild in an isolated area such as a mountain rang or a rain forest . That could be a non polluted strain. I think the best way to find these would be to speak to a botanist who is dedicated to cataloging an isolated area and get the goods from them.

If a farmer did have a true strain and these guys Gave them seeds well that feels like a deliberate infection or Green House is just stupid?

Great subject

 

[Luther Burbank]

There is no such thing as a new world landrace. All the American(continents, not the US) varieties are post-Columbian mixes of broad-leaf drug cultivars brought from India and narrow-leaf hemp cultivars brought from europe. The Jamaicans especially have been known for working and mixing any and all varieties in with their lines. To assume there are landraces untouched is to assume that only we in the first world are capable of plant selection or improvement. It's inherently a colonial world view. The hippie trail was 50 years ago - there is not a place untouched by the exchange of seed.

Varieties that go wild will quickly over several generations revert to ditch weed. Natural selection favors everything we don't for a drug cultivar.

This is my rage about tearing down the forum bullshit. There's all sorts of known facts among forum experts, but when you examine the facts on the ground most of it is unfounded. Clarke and Merlin's tome "Cannabis Ethnobotany" should be mandatory reading for anyone wanting to talk about this subject. http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520270480

There is a reason people like Tom Hill and Sadhu Sam have barely hidden distain for serious discussions about breeding or cannabis botany - and it's because no one wants to do the actual reading. Everyone reading this, yes the book is expensive, but it's damn worth it, and we could all be making actual progress if people would read it. Instead we're wasting our time on speculations built on a rotten foundation.

 

[EastCoast710]

breeding etiquette.. I say.. just don't sell someone elses work.. if u want to work there gear into a more stable line. or a hybrid or a cross.. not a huge deal.. but if your going to buy a few packs of serious seeds ak47. and then just taking the best female.. and taking any male from the packs.. and just make seeds.. and sell those.. that's kinda fucked up.. but if u take it a little further and do more selection and actualy make it a more stable seed line.. then ya that's fine..

but say if u some how get a clone like the original Blueberry.. or the clone only OG Kush.. and u try to RECREATE someone elses strain.. by somehow obtaining a clone of the male they used.. or reversing the same female they did.. and then u just make the exact same seeds they made and sell them to people.. THATS MORE FUCKED UP THEN ANYTHING.... and im sure it happens.. and happens ALL THE TIME every single day..

but ive seen people take others work.. and make it better. and seen some make others worse..

but if ur not trying to make millions by ripping off someone elses work I see no problem with it .. especially if your honest about were you got your genetics.

like honestly.. I respect breeders more .. when they say.. im using so n so's (this) and so n so's (that) and doing some back crossing.. and laying out exactly how they got to the seeds IM BUYING... THATS VERY RESPECTABLE... to me atleast..

I cannot stand when someone says.. I made this strain.. from a strain I made and another strain I made.. and u find out.. ya they found a keeper in a pack of so n sos seeds.. and a male from somewere else.. and now they claim to have worked the entire strain..? or they got a clone from someone who said please.. do not sell the clones.. or make crosses and sell the seeds.. please..

and the first thing the dude does is go home and pick out a male.. or a female to reverse.. to sell

that's so fucked.. and If I find a breeder that does that I just will not buy from them..

if someone tells me that THIS CLONE.. cannot be passed around.. unless u ask first or don't pass it around until after next outdoor season.... and the person your giving it to knows that this clone cannot be passed around.. its held close.. and they will not give u a cut if u pass it around.. then I wont spread it unless its to a close friend who understands and follows the rules.. if not.. I keep it and no1 gets it.. I respect when a close friend doesn't want his shit spread all over the place. because u know the guy they got it from said not to give it out. but they were friends so hes like if u wana grow it for yourself that's fine. but don't hand it out to everyone.. and he does.. then the guy who gave it to him will never give him anymore hoarded shit.. so .. if we all respect the fact that it shouldn't be whored out and sold then maybe us smaller growers.. wouldn't have any competition when it comes to dispensaries.. and big commercial growers.. if they couldn't get all the amazing genetics.. they wouldn't be able to compete nearly as easily..

but when someone offers u 500-5000 $ for a cut.. some people say fuck it and give it out..
but once u do it once.. ull do it again and again.. and next thing u know everyones got it . and ur buddy is wondering how the hell it got out.. but he knows u did it .. and now.. when he gets the next big thing.. ur FUCKED..

like me and a few friends share clones.. but none of us sell big time.. we all supply a few family members and close friends.. and no1 takes anyone elses business.. and we share clones.. and equipment if needed.. but mainly we grow to smoke . . if I were to buy weed I would be smoking anywere from a half to a full pound of flower.. and anywere from 14-28 grams of bho.. each month.. so say.. good bho 1 oz.. 1000$ .. and a pound of quality.. 3500$.. so 4500$ a month.. instead.. I spent 5000 to start up.. and I pay 350 monthly electric.. 1000 a month rent.. and maybe 30-50$ month for nutes.. and soil is around 75 a month.. so i pay 5800ish.. to grow my own each harvest.. and living.. so i sell around 2 pounds to pay for everything. and then the rest is smoked. allowed me to make my huge habit that was costing money.. to something that i can do for free and as much as i want.. n it helps me pay the rent..

 

[MostWantedGens]

its all depend on the price what you want for your stuff (a lots of strains overpriced from the profit orientated companies... sell the same quality cheaper is correct)

things depend on the amount of work and money what you invest to produce your stuff

and a lots of things depend on your sense of growin marijuana, almost all depend on this factor that your stuff is worth the price and you do it for the love (of mj) or you just doin it for the moneeeey.

 

[MostWantedGens]

and don't forget that when you buy an original pack, than you bought all the rights of that strain (you have rights even re-produce it ...what takes a lots of money, energy, space, selecting, etc)

nothing as easy as it seems.

 

[SecondAttempt]

Good discussion in here but OP never came back... sooo....Fail?

 

[mojave green]

i buy it, i own it. no strings attached!

 

[SeedsOfFreedom]

Really if a breeder gets ripped of, it just means he/she made it! Imitation is the ultimate form a flattery is it not! People should not sell seeds they don't want reproduced, end of story. The real goal should be spreading the best Cannabis far and wide, regardless of the source of starting materials.