Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[Jhhnn]

Re: Post 6084 on CDM330/U/O/4K EA Allstart for 400w MH core & coil ballasts, question:

Not sure if you mean by "core and coil ballasts" the older magnetic style heavy ballasts? So will these cdm330 lamps run fine without shortened life on a 400w digital ballast also? And using a 400w powering a 330w lamp won't overpush it to an early demise?

Would you regard these 330s as energy-saving as the 315w? Ability to utilize a 400w ballast - even if only magnetic will work - is worth considering for the lower ballast cost.. thx

The 330's are specifically designed as energy saving screw in lamps for industrial 400w MH magnetic fixtures & ballasts, pulse or probe start. Unscrew 400w MH lamp, screw in 330w CMH lamp to save energy with supposedly the same brightness in terms of lumen rating. That's all there is to it. They are absolutely not intended for high frequency electronic ballasts. They go into that at the Advanced Lighting website.

I'm sure of that information. The rest I honestly don't know.

 

[Ttystikk]

I'm a DIY guy my self as well. Can't see paying prices on some things when I can match it pretty close with my own designs.

I come from the industrial electric side so that's how I come across my train of thought and resources.

Well ran into some snags. Can t remove the glass till my ac is in, delays, and venting with low volume for the bulbs longevity. I know these bulbs like to stay in the 500-700 degree range during normal operation. The 315s will be wired up tomorrow. Pics attached.

Damn those 860s are like having the sun in a box! Pics not the greatest lights throwing the camera off, go figure.

I just threw down coin for those Philips 860W CDM bulbs. Is that what you're running? Can you tell if the plants like them?

 

[Ericos]

I just threw down coin for those Philips 860W CDM bulbs. Is that what you're running? Can you tell if the plants like them?

Well this is my first run with CMH. As far as the 860w goes it's definatly intense in those OG hoods. Well see how the results go in this cycle but digging them so far.

 

[Ttystikk]

Well this is my first run with CMH. As far as the 860w goes it's definatly intense in those OG hoods. Well see how the results go in this cycle but digging them so far.

I like the sound of 'intense', and I'll be running them bare inside a cylinder shaped trellis five feet in diameter. It was just enough room for HPS thouies and these are slightly smaller.

 

[Ericos]

Well switched up the layout again with a better array of light use.
2 860w of hoods and plasma on one side, 4 315w moguls on the other. The 315 side I can play with the height better.

 

[cannaisok]

4x315 seems to be much for that space, dont u want to try 3x 315 first and see how it performs? just asking myself

 

[LargePrime]

wanted to bump this post, since it answers a lot of questions

Hey I got bumped! Yay!

But I do not think that I was all that correct.
1) the agro has the most blue of any CHM bulb. Ya i said the unprotected bulbs have more blue a few posts ago, but it was pointed out that it is dangerous to run naked bulbs, and one sheet o glass (for safety) will kill your uv. The protected agro bulbs have a quartz outer shell to not mess with the UV/blue. Thats what makes the agro so expensive

2) the agro is a very studied bulb. Bulbs make all kinds of claims. Like Senlite bulbs claim 130,000 lm., which, afaik only experimental 600W HPS has shown that kinda lumen per watt. The point here is that not only does the agro say it is a great bulb, but bulb studying people say so too.

So I think Tom at ATL is incorrect about the agro, which he hates, calling it a dildo bulb. The agro has more red and blue and all the good stuff in between than virtually any other bulb.

But I could be wrong. AGAIN!

 

[Ericos]

4x315 seems to be much for that space, dont u want to try 3x 315 first and see how it performs? just asking myself

It's a 15x12 room and in person it fills out nicely plus I like having a plank of light on that side

LargePrime,
As far as the agro bulb goes it is a good bulb for horticulture, which it was tailored towards, but some info your not entirely correct on.

-it's not the bluest cmh can't be with a color temp of 3100. Also the quartz itself is uv blocking which phillips states in their own spec data/brochure info on the uv blocking characteristics of this bulb which the quartz plays a big role, they have a paragraph on this.

- It has the lowest uv rating of the 315w bulbs(7 versions) which is uva at 4.35mW, uvb & uvc at .02mW. The mogul base is much higher and better for resin quality IMHO, uva 13.88mW, uvb .1mW, uvc .01mW(the mogul has even less uvc to which is good though miniscule). These specs are freely available from phillips as well.

-Not bad for the lumens but the agro is only rated 500 lumens more than the mogul base which isn't much of a difference. I go by CRI and PAR/uMol now a days when comparing and judging lamps which I think is a better way to factor lamps along with the uvb output for quality.....resin!

There many factors in choosing a lamp and the person's knowledge of those is the biggest!

Check out marijuana man's video(Google this) on uvb affects and disc cell info. 17 minutes of some pretty in depth info all should know!

 

[LargePrime]

-it's not the bluest cmh can't be with a color temp of 3100. Also the quartz itself is uv blocking which phillips states in their own spec data/brochure info on the uv blocking characteristics of this bulb which the quartz plays a big role, they have a paragraph on this.


- It has the lowest uv rating of the 315w bulbs(7 versions) which is uva at 4.35mW, uvb & uvc at .02mW. The mogul base is much higher and better for resin quality IMHO, uva 13.88mW, uvb .1mW, uvc .01mW(the mogul has even less uvc to which is good though miniscule). These specs are freely available from phillips as well.

-Not bad for the lumens but the agro is only rated 500 lumens more than the mogul base which isn't much of a difference. I go by CRI and PAR/uMol now a days when comparing and judging lamps which I think is a better way to factor lamps along with the uvb output for quality.....resin!

The whole point of quartz glass is to not block UV. It is well known that fused quartz (<-link) has much less blocking ability / more UV transparency than any other glass.

So how can Philips be bragging about blocking UV with a very special and expensive not UV blocking glass?

And Why block UV in horticulture? Perhaps the market needs low UV exposure for workers, but lots of red is great for plants AND people?

But, my questions aside, it seems you are right. The Protected mogul base has much higher UVA, and 5 times the UVB+C. And it is protected/ open fixture rated.
So perhaps the agro sacrifices expensive Blue Photons for the less expensive Red, which allows it a better PAR rating (1.9/W agro vs 1.82/W Mogul), but perhaps that is a bit cheaty, or less optimal for our needs?

So then can we say the mogul is the best BULB?
http://www.usa.ecat.lighting.philip...olor-cdm-elite-mw-mogul-base/928601175501_na/

The Downsides of the mogul are slightly less light (trivial), but still way better than HPS. well and you cannot positively locate the wire in the direction you want.

Which makes fighting for the PGZ18 bases kinda silly.

So I thank you for showing that I am wrong, again.

Check out marijuana man's video(Google this) on uvb affects and disc cell info. 17 minutes of some pretty in depth info all should know!

Found the channel, but could not find any UV related videos. care to link?

 

[rives]

The lumen maintenance on the PGZ18 base is significantly better - the Agro is 90% @ 8000 hours, while the mogul base is 93% @ 2000 hours and 87% @ 5000 hours. I've also come to appreciate the superiority of the PGZ18 over the Edison from the standpoint of not worrying about over/under tightening of the screw-in design and the indexing of the lamp.

 

[Drek]

I've read enough info on UVB to draw my own conclusions. I think UVB does make a difference, but I'm not sure that's it's a big enough difference for weed that isn't already potent enough to begin with?



With weed that is already potent, it could potentially step it up a bit more. Outdoor levels are huge compared to what people are scared of indoors. It's funny, people whine and cry about a few uW of UVB indoors, then go spend an entire day at the beach. lol. Some of these plants (the most potent ones) are used to getting 3-400uW of regular exposure.

ie: .01mW = 10uW.

 

[Ericos]

Yep it's hard to really say which bulb is the best. Guess when it comes down to it a lot is dependent on technique and genetics. Shoot some swere by led which I have my own bias on and I've seen grows with some superior product using induction.

That pgz18 style is the edge on cmh by utilizing that red spike which others seem to lack but just the finer details swayed me to the moguls and 860w cmh. Basically all hids are street lamps and start their life in the industrial market and us indoor guys took hold of them years back and here we are now


UV block info,
If you type in Google "mastercolor elite oem design guide" it should be the second result from www.lighting.phillips..... click on it and you'll be viewing their design guide on that series which on page 16 they go into some detail on the uv block characteristics. They add a dope of some metals into the component mix of the quartz at manufacturing to lessen uv output. I had this argument with a sunlight supply rep. who said there wasn't any uv blocking in that bulb. Phillips points it out in their own literature.

Marijuana man's video is called Thc, uvb, and me

 

[Drek]

If UVB matters (which it possibly does), then even the mogul bulb is just approaching what we want as a minimum, 100uW. The 210w version puts out even more at 190uW.

So, based on UV as choice, the best bulb would be the mogul in Agro or 3100k @ 210w. About 10 inches away...

 

[Ericos]

I thought it would be neat to have a few 210w hanging close to the canopy around my existing features for the extra uv plus you'd be able to have some better red output from that bulb.

It would be interesting to have an hps be the main light and hang a few 210w cmh close to the canopy for supplemental which may be better on the quality with good yield outcome?

 

[Drek]

Yeah, to be honest Ericos, I've always been kinda sketchy on mixed lamps. If different lamps aren't very close together, you get varying spectrum's around the canopy.

I prefer it all to come from a single source...or multiple identical sources. So, 2 x 210w under the same hood would be a decent option for something med-small, with UVb in mind. Same switchable ballast, just with that bulb.

 

[LargePrime]

I should put all the CMH data into a DB or spreadsheet, or website. So we can find the data easily.

 

[Pinball Wizard]

2 facts.

- There are still lots of Retro's available on the aftermarket. I know I just picked up 10 of them for a great price.
- Retro's still grow great plants. I just finished a run a week ago with one.

Just because they're a little older doesn't change how they grow plants...all it does is make them cheaper, while still being available.
They put off good PPFD with an excellent spectrum. They are protected, they are cool running and they are backwards compatible with HPS(for people that already have the ballasts). If anything, the Retro while being old, is still quite a bit more advanced than many bulbs manufactured today. I really don't care about efficiency at such a low amount of used power. Total cost for 25+ years worth of 400w lamps? $250. Agro lamp is nice, but just wasn't as attractive as the Retro(for me) cost wise; Retro has already proven to grow exceeding expectations.

Where did you get the 400 watt Retro lamps? My old supplier only has the 250 watt lamps left in stock.

 

[Drek]

I got mine off Ebay, about 4 months ago. I can find them on google by searching the datasheet model # for either vertical or horizontal. I'm not sure, but the guy at advanced may have stock left as well.

 

[Ttystikk]

I should put all the CMH data into a DB or spreadsheet, or website. So we can find the data easily.

Include a graph of their spectral response curves too, for comparison's sake.

 

[Avinash.miles]

im running the 860 vert still going, will load some pics asap of it... plants look nice under it, love the the spectrum....

cant wait to get the 315 hanging back up.

the lighting guide is a real help, thanks to Ericos who posted it originally, here's the link:
http://www.lighting.philips.com/pwc...literature/downloads/elite_design_guidev7.pdf