Need a solution to my electrical problems

[Nodgman3087]

Can someone explain to me what a Master HID Grow Light Controller does?

Here's my problem, I'm trying to hook another light but when I do it pulls too much power and flips the breaker. I was looking at possibly putting in a new breaker dedicated just for the lights.
All the power outlets in this room all run off one breaker, I'm pretty sure it's all on a single 15amp breaker.

Is my only real option To run a whole new circuit? I have a little bit of experience with electricity, but i would rather not have to do any major electrical work to my home. Any info will help thanks.

 

[Snow Crash]

A Master light controller is a big, fancy, heavy duty power strip. They have relays in them and a trigger cord attached to a timer. When the timer tells the unit to turn on the relay is connected and current runs to the ballasts.

You're going to need to run another circuit to allow you to pull more power. I suggest getting at least a 30amp 220/240v line and a quality controller. A Titan Helios 5 is a good fit I think, and only $130.95.

 

[socialist]

Running a new circuit is actually pretty easy. If you turn off your main breaker you will be safe while doing it.

 

[rives]

A Master light controller is a big, fancy, heavy duty power strip. They have relays in them and a trigger cord attached to a timer. When the timer tells the unit to turn on the relay is connected and current runs to the ballasts.

You're going to need to run another circuit to allow you to pull more power. I suggest getting at least a 30amp 220/240v line and a quality controller. A Titan Helios 5 is a good fit I think, and only $130.95.

I'm curious as to whether or not the Helios 5 has internal fusing to drop the current protection down from the 30 amp feed to the 20 amps that the outlets are rated for? I see that it is ETL listed, how about UL or CSA? There are a bunch of potentially dangerous controllers on the market, and it would be nice to find one to recommend that actually conforms to the electrical code.

 

[Jhhnn]

Can someone explain to me what a Master HID Grow Light Controller does?

Here's my problem, I'm trying to hook another light but when I do it pulls too much power and flips the breaker. I was looking at possibly putting in a new breaker dedicated just for the lights.
All the power outlets in this room all run off one breaker, I'm pretty sure it's all on a single 15amp breaker.

Is my only real option To run a whole new circuit? I have a little bit of experience with electricity, but i would rather not have to do any major electrical work to my home. Any info will help thanks.

Can you link to specs on that controller? It'd help.

What wattage of lights are you trying to use? Household circuits should not have continuous loads greater than 80% (iirc) of rated capacity, anyway, even if they will hold.

A single 1000w lamp & associated equip is borderline on a 15 amp 120v circuit, for example.

Rives is the house wiring pro, btw. My experience is mostly different, but related.

If you offer more specifics, you can get more help. The best answer for multiple lamp arrangements is 240v operation or split phase 120v operation using a compatible controller. Either way, you probably need another circuit, more wiring, maybe a 30A 240v sub-panel with breakers. Sometimes a 240v dryer circuit can be adapted to your purposes, if there's one handy. Well, if you're not using the dryer.

 

[Nodgman3087]

Can you link to specs on that controller? It'd help.

What wattage of lights are you trying to use? Household circuits should not have continuous loads greater than 80% (iirc) of rated capacity, anyway, even if they will hold.

A single 1000w lamp & associated equip is borderline on a 15 amp 120v circuit, for example.

Rives is the house wiring pro, btw. My experience is mostly different, but related.

If you offer more specifics, you can get more help. The best answer for multiple lamp arrangements is 240v operation or split phase 120v operation using a compatible controller. Either way, you probably need another circuit, more wiring, maybe a 30A 240v sub-panel with breakers. Sometimes a 240v dryer circuit can be adapted to your purposes, if there's one handy. Well, if you're not using the dryer.

No i definitely need my dryer lol.

what peaked my interest about the controller was I saw someone selling 4-1000w lamps and a CAP brand controller. I just wasn't even certain what they were for.

I currently have a 400w Mh and a 600w Mh over my flowers. In this room when all the equipment is plugged in and running, lights, fans,ect., if I turn on a shop vac it flips the breaker. And I'm also looking at adding another 1000w light. I wanna have the 2000w of lights on a separate circuit From the other equipment. I'm pretty certain it's a single pole breaker box. Slightly older home, say 30-40yrs old. But all the wiring appears good. Except this house has zero GFCI protection anywhere in the house. But that's another problem all together. If I did two 20amp circuits, one for each 1000w worth of light, A. Would that work? B. What size wire should I use? I don't actually need a light controller right ? Oh wait, So what the controller does is allow you to plug multiple ballast into one timer right?

How would i hook up a 4 light controller? I might as well do it right. Sorry slightly high lol.

 

[Snow Crash]

I'm curious as to whether or not the Helios 5 has internal fusing to drop the current protection down from the 30 amp feed to the 20 amps that the outlets are rated for? I see that it is ETL listed, how about UL or CSA? There are a bunch of potentially dangerous controllers on the market, and it would be nice to find one to recommend that actually conforms to the electrical code.

I can look into the internal fusing to see how they are regulating the voltage because I don't have that answer. Their customer service is on point.

The Helios 5 is ETL listed (although I think most of the Helios are) and uses UL components but I don't think that it, in and of itself, is UL certified as an extension of the components. The combination of NEMA 5-16 Outlets and NEMA Rated Allen-Bradley industrial relays are what set this controller apart from the other units. The other Titan units are running Sieman brand relays or 5-20 Outlets. The electrical side of things isn't my area of expertise so any input you have is welcome but as far as I can tell, this is their heaviest duty controller.

Although, the Helios 9 looks like it does have that 30amp breaker built right in. I'm checking out the sockets on that one.

Powerbox makes a great product as well (with a 5 year warranty) but I think for the cost that these Helios 5's are the best value with both being only ETL.

 

[rives]

I can look into the internal fusing to see how they are regulating the voltage because I don't have that answer. Their customer service is on point.

The Helios 5 is ETL listed (although I think most of the Helios are) and uses UL components but I don't think that it, in and of itself, is UL certified as an extension of the components. The combination of NEMA 5-16 Outlets and NEMA Rated Allen-Bradley industrial relays are what set this controller apart from the other units. The other Titan units are running Sieman brand relays or 5-20 Outlets. The electrical side of things isn't my area of expertise so any input you have is welcome but as far as I can tell, this is their heaviest duty controller.

Although, the Helios 9 looks like it does have that 30amp breaker built right in. I'm checking out the sockets on that one.

Powerbox makes a great product as well (with a 5 year warranty) but I think for the cost that these Helios 5's are the best value with both being only ETL.

Do you mean 5-15? There is really no difference in the way that 5-15 or 5-20 receptacles are made other than the faceplate. The A-B power relays are excellent and have replaceable contacts and coils, so they are completely serviceable.

The big issue, both from a code standpoint (meaning fire safety) and from the potential to be listed, is whether there is protection built into the controller to protect the components that are rated at a lower amperage than what the circuit breaker feeding the controller will provide. A 30a circuit doesn't provide adequate protection for 15-20a devices.

 

[Nodgman3087]

Okay am I getting thread jacked here?

 

[rives]

No. Would you like to find out if the option suggested is actually safe and won't void your fire insurance? If that isn't important to you, I'll be happy to bow out and finish up in PMs.

 

[Jhhnn]

Okay am I getting thread jacked here?

Not really. If you're serious about this, then you need to do some homework. You need to understand what you have, starting at the breaker panel. Is there room for more breakers? Brand? Style? Rating? You need to figure out how to get more wiring from there to where you need it & what tools it requires. After that, you need to calculate the load, which will determine hardware choices. Controllers come in after that, if you choose to go that way at all.

You need to learn what you're looking at & some of the underlying theory. This is a good place to start, particularly some of the links on the front page-

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=117867

Alternatively, you may be able to bring power from another lightly loaded circuit into the room where you need it. To understand that, you need to map the location of all the electrical outlets & switches in your house to each breaker in the panel. Make a sketch, flip a breaker, see what quit working flipping switches & using an outlet checker or just a lamp. Keep doing that until you fill in the map. Washing machines, refrigerators, freezers & air conditioners are fairly heavy loads so their circuits won't have a lot of spare capacity. OTOH, you may discover a receptacle on a lightly loaded circuit nearby & be able to tap in there to bring power to a new receptacle where you can use it. That's plan B if plan A above just isn't a real possibility.

This isn't a thing where somebody can walk you through it, at all.

 

[Snow Crash]

Do you mean 5-15? There is really no difference in the way that 5-15 or 5-20 receptacles are made other than the faceplate. The A-B power relays are excellent and have replaceable contacts and coils, so they are completely serviceable.

The big issue, both from a code standpoint (meaning fire safety) and from the potential to be listed, is whether there is protection built into the controller to protect the components that are rated at a lower amperage than what the circuit breaker feeding the controller will provide. A 30a circuit doesn't provide adequate protection for 15-20a devices.

Hey Nodgman,
Not trying to hijack, just get some good info and make sure the right unit winds up in your hands.

I was thinking that with just the 2 lamps, both running on 240v, that we're looking at ~9-10amps or so.

I'm not up on fire code, and I don't have the education to say definitively that a 30a circuit would provide adequate protection for 9 to 10 amps worth of devices. But, that is my expectation...

After doing a little more digging I did find that the newer Sentinel controllers are ETL listed to UL 508 STD for Commerical Use, and RoHS compliant. The Sentinel HPLC-4 for only $125.99 is even less than the Titan. But again, you run the 30amp 240v line and max out at 20amps/4000w on the unit. I'm still looking into the relays.

Do you think this a better match Rives? I am waiting on a call back for more info from Grow GPS on their High Power Commercial line.

 

[rives]

I was thinking that with just the 2 lamps, both running on 240v, that we're looking at ~9-10amps or so.

I'm not up on fire code, and I don't have the education to say definitively that a 30a circuit would provide adequate protection for 9 to 10 amps worth of devices. But, that is my expectation...

After doing a little more digging I did find that the newer Sentinel controllers are ETL listed to UL 508 STD for Commerical Use, and RoHS compliant. The Sentinel HPLC-4 for only $125.99 is even less than the Titan. But again, you run the 30amp 240v line and max out at 20amps/4000w on the unit. I'm still looking into the relays.

Do you think this a better match Rives? I am waiting on a call back for more info from Grow GPS on their High Power Commercial line.

The issue is the step in amperage rating of the components. If you have a 30a feed coming in on appropriately-sized wire and no further downstream overcurrent protection, then the remainder of the components in the circuit have to be rated for 30 amps. If you are going to reduce the ampacity of the components, then there needs to be fusing set in front of the devices and and any related reduction in wire size to protect at the level that they are rated for.

For instance, if you have Nema 5-15 (15a, 120v) receptacles mounted in a controller that is fed with 30 amps and no intermediate protection, you can have a failure that could result in the receptacle having to source twice as much current as it was designed for before the breaker even begins to recognize an overcurrent condition. In other words, the 15a receptacle could be forced to provide 30a for as long as it took for everything to melt down and completely short out.

I don't know of a commercially-available controller that is properly designed, that's why I'm interested to see if this one does meet code. The market is so competitive that everyone has eliminated everything that they can so they can be near the same price point as their competition. They all rely on an exclusion in the code that allows for an exception in the current protection for HID lighting, but it is only intended for warehouse lighting and has a string of requirements for it to apply that can never be met in a residential installation. For instance, the ballasted luminaire (no remote ballast) has to hang directly below the receptacle providing the power, it has to have the power cord completely within view, the power cord cannot be longer than 18", the power cord has to come from the same manufacturer as the luminaire and be specially tested and listed for that application, etc. Doesn't sound like us, does it?

These companies have been protected by the fact that their customers are doing something illegal with the equipment and are pretty well without recourse.

 

[Jhhnn]

Maybe the obvious is being overlooked. For a 4000w 240v controller, run a 15A 240v circuit to a junction box. 3600w. I'd use 12/3 w/ ground rather than 14ga to keep it beefy & a ganged 15a breaker like the way they do for split phase disposal/ dishwasher combos. Wire in the controller, even add 15A split phase 120v outlets if desired. It's all properly protected at the breaker panel.

Stepping up to a 30A 240v feed is best done with a sub panel, part of my upcoming rework. Following Rives' recommendation of GE, I'll be using a TL240SCUP panel- cheap, special order from Home Depot. It's perfect for my purposes. The busbar arrangement allows for one 240v ganged breaker setup & 2 more 120v breakers using GE 1/2" breakers. ground bar purchased separately. Add a timer & power relay from here, another of Rives' recommendations-

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Relays_-z-_Timers/Electro-Mechanical_Relays/Power_Relays,_Open-Style,_40A_%28AD-PR40_Series%29

Overkill for my purposes, but it lets me step up to pro grade hardware & an overtemp lockout on the control circuit.

 

[rives]

Maybe the obvious is being overlooked. For a 4000w 240v controller, run a 15A 240v circuit to a junction box. 3600w.

Overkill for my purposes, but it lets me step up to pro grade hardware & an overtemp lockout on the control circuit.

That would work well to replace the missing protection of the controller, but with the 80% rule it would drop the available power for a continuous load to 2880 watts. Kicking the breaker size up to a double pole 20a would give you 3840 watts continuously, and would work with the code allowance of 15a receptacles on a 20a circuit if there are multiple receptacles on the circuit. It does miss out on the ease of simply plugging the controller into an available dryer circuit, however. It would still be a simple matter to change out the breaker, but misses the plug & play capability that would be attractive to many.

It would also be a relatively simple matter to add the necessary fusing if there is room in the controller enclosure. Unfortunately, it appears that opening the case on the Helios voids the warranty (if that is important to you). Hopefully Snow Crash will find that the fusing is already in place - from the components used, it looks like a very nice unit, but I've been unable to find a schematic or parts list for it.

Jhhnn, overkill is under-rated! Sounds like a nice installation that you are planning on.

 

[Jhhnn]

That would work well to replace the missing protection of the controller, but with the 80% rule it would drop the available power for a continuous load to 2880 watts. Kicking the breaker size up to a double pole 20a would give you 3840 watts continuously, and would work with the code allowance of 15a receptacles on a 20a circuit if there are multiple receptacles on the circuit. It does miss out on the ease of simply plugging the controller into an available dryer circuit, however. It would still be a simple matter to change out the breaker, but misses the plug & play capability that would be attractive to many.

It would also be a relatively simple matter to add the necessary fusing if there is room in the controller enclosure. Unfortunately, it appears that opening the case on the Helios voids the warranty (if that is important to you). Hopefully Snow Crash will find that the fusing is already in place - from the components used, it looks like a very nice unit, but I've been unable to find a schematic or parts list for it.

Jhhnn, overkill is under-rated! Sounds like a nice installation that you are planning on.

I figure that if a person wants to run a controller & needs to bring in power anyway, then just do it the easy way, size the power to the controller, hook it up. Run oversize wire if you want to facilitate future upgrade to a sub panel. 2880 watts is more than the OP needs, anyway. At 240v/20A, as you offer, a 4000w controller could theoretically run 3000w of lights w/ plenty of circuit headroom for everything else.

As you say, a lot of controllers are probably installed in unsafe ways. OTOH, the instructions probably tell the user not to do that, the user being the crux of the problem in the first place. If it comes with a dryer plug already installed, then it needs to have internal fusing for the outlets, obviously.

 

[Nodgman3087]

Okay so after reading everyone's responses I now know that a master lighting controller is the only way for me to go. And after reading the instructions for the CAP MCL-4x, I feel pretty confident , as long as I'm able to get access to my breaker panel which is mounted in a small closet, inside an exterior wall. Like it's in the wall, I haven't taken the cover off yet but I'm hoping I don't have to rip out sheet rock.

 

[rives]

I would avoid any CAP product (and the successor line from Hydrofarm) like the plague. I am currently working with one member via PM who saw this thread, pulled the cover on his CAP controller, and discovered that the undersized wiring had been so hot that it discolored the insulation. They have a long history of completely ignoring the electrical code & "best practices", and using the cheapest offshore components available.

It appears that the Helios unit that Snow Cash recommended would be a much better choice, and if it has the correct fusing in it, would be the best unit that I've seen for the money (or substantially more).

 

[Nodgman3087]

Shit of course I didn't read this till after I just ordered one. What is he running off of it ? 4 - 1000w ballast? Because I only plan on running 2000w or 3 lights 1-400w, 1- 600w, 1-1000w light. But I'm glad to know that, that way if I have any issues what so ever I'll be returning it.

So do you think i should over size the romex feeding the controller? In the instructions it says to use 10-2 romex to a 30amp breaker. I'm only going about 25'(max) from the breaker box to the controller.

And it sounds like the person your talking about didn't tighten down the lugs enough. That will result in excess heat (at the least)

 

[rives]

The problem is that the there are numerous components in the CAP units rated for 15a at best, with some cheap offshore shit that will not stand up to it's nominal rating. The discolored wires in the other fellows controller are NOT from loose connections, but from wire that is too small for the load. If you are going to use that thing, I would feed it with a 15 or 20a breaker, change the receptacles out to some commercial or specification grade ones, and change any wires out that are smaller than #12 if you feed it with a 15a or 20a breaker, or #10 wire if you feed it with a 30 amp. Be aware that the receptacles are completely inadequate for a 30a feed, as is anything that will plug into them.

You do know that CAP is bankrupt & out of business, don't you?