Confirmed cases of Pneumothorax from smoking/vaping BHO

[Levitation]

For me, Ron hit the nail on the head: "Correltation does not equal causation." It's easy to be weary of concentrates; they are new to the game (30-40 years is "new" in the grand scheme of safe human cannabis use), reclaim formation looks different than what most are use to, & I know old heads dislike torches... but until you have more conclusive results to back up your theory please don't start threads w/ "Confirmed cases" in the title. Notice there are NONE posted. Could butane/hexane extracts (&/or the associated coughing) be detrimental to the lungs? Possibly. But like I said NOONE has confirmed anything yet & 30 years is a decent long term study (albeit one w/ many uncontrolled variables). Personally, I try not to believe anything 100%. But I know (for me) smoking more material produces more gross looking phlegm, when I use concentrates (yes even waxy ones) my phlegm is clearer & (I feel) I breathe better. Most of my peers agree.
Sorry to all the disgruntled solvent-hating heads, but there will be no stopping the concentrate wave until truly confirmed negative medical evidence appears.

 

[Holdin']

There are zero 'confirmed' cases of Pneumothorax... this thread should certainly be re-worded to something along the lines of:

"My buddy was diagnosed with Pneumothorax and it may possibly be connected to consuming BHO?"

And then we could have more intelligent discussion or debate.

These 'findings' by these doctors are nothing more than a refer madness attitude IMO. Pneumothorax has been around long before dab-culture came about. And the OP obviously has a predetermined bias against BHO, which is fine, we all have our opinions. But there are very intelligent guys in the community, specifically BHO community, that would argue this until they are blue in the face. And it's all a bro-science standpoint no matter which way you look at it, and even a doctor that tells you that your Pneumothorax is from dabbing is just a higher form of bro-science - considering they are simply grabbing an easy outlet to lay blame on, and not going off of actual research.

With that being said, by no means do I think it is healthy to:

-Consume BHO from a non-trusted source
-Smoke massive amounts of BHO all day long
-Enter a dick-measuring contest in the form of 'who can take the biggest dab' and/or hold it in the longest.

However, I have a semi-sensitive respiratory system, and have always been a bit of a 'cougher'... But since I started dabbing, I have felt 100% better than when I was constantly smoking flowers. I feel that vaporizing smallish amounts of the cleanest possible oil is much better for me than smoking moderate amounts of flowers... as we all know that there is nothing good about SMOKE in general, and nothing is good for you in excess.

Dabbing (clean oil) is certainly more healthy than:
-smoking tobacco
-living in a highly polluted area, or even
-living in a home with very poor indoor air quality.

It would be very debatable as to whether or not dabbing is more healthy than smoking flowers, but I know there are a lot of people that would enter that debate from both sides.

I don't think it's right or fair to scold an individual, or a community at large that is taking every step to ensure that we are vaping the highest quality BHO possible. The pre-disposed bias of assuming that smoking something that was extracted via butane is not fair by any means, especially now that testing is becoming more widely available to actually KNOW you are smoking clean oil.

On the other hand, another topic that I'd be open to argue, is how healthy these vape pens are to be vaping out of... considering, to me anyways, that there is a very noticeable difference in taste when smoking from a vape pen vs. dab rig... every vape pen I've used gives off a strange chemical taste that I'm not too fond of.

I think something that we can all agree on, which is mentioned widely in this thread, is that severe coughing is NOT good for your body, no matter what the reason.

Cheers.

 

[Weird]

a few side comments

i find that there is a constant pressure caused internally within our community from participants judging others on how they use / embrace a relationship with this plant

embracing this plant in the most "improper" methods is still better than most of the alternatives the world offers right now and still leads to the benefit of instant medication and long term still provides the benefits of nuerogensis and other long term healing benefits.

the point being, judging each other when we travel the same path simply offers no practical benefit, it only divides us like prohibition did.

secondly we are at the cutting edge of marijuana cultivation and use technologies and many new techniques simply haven't been around to have a scientific understanding of causation yet.

this is why is it so critical we find harmony and all communicate our causation because in the final analysis this information can draw the same conclusions.

one other note is that someone mentioned that silicosis could become a potential issue making and using extractions with glass because of particles.

I am not asserting definitive causation but just noting there are many variables that could potentially come into play

fwiw oil has several very necessarily medicinal purposes

 

[RB56]

Pay attention to your lungs. The biggest factor in spontaneous pneumothorax is genetics. Most aren't spontaneous. They are caused by trauma - broken rib piercing a lung, gunshot, stabbing, etc.

Still, is anybody going to argue that heating and inhaling anything is good for your lungs? If you're coughing a lot, something is wrong. If you "feel" your lungs, or have breathing issues, something is wrong. Be a good idea to try something different.

I feel better vaping than smoking and better eating than vaping. My girlfriend's pneumothorax occurred as we were adjusting to having as much cannabis as we wanted. I switched to a vaporizer. She continued to use a Proto Pipe. Bowl after bowl, month after month. Can't swear it caused the problem. Quite sure it didn't help.

 

[Sirdabsalot46n2]

Reckon I'll add my 2 pennies to this piggy bank..

He only dabbed "professional" product from dispensaries.
^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sadly, I'm nearly positive this right here is the "causation"

"Professional product from dispensaries"
This statement is very close to being an oxymoron.

Oils made by persons with passion and a strong grasp of he process are a gift from the Heavens above.

I have an Auto-immune disorder and very vulnerable to ... Well, just about everything.
I've been making my own oil for about 3 years, and my health has significantly improved in all capacities since doing so.

I have a medical team of 4 different professionals, all of which encourage me to continue doing my essential oil of cannabis.

Conclusion....
Know and trust your resources, the stuff they sell in the plastic containers in dispensaries .......
That is the true "Mystery Oil"
Be safe guys,
[sd]

 

[HighStateToke]

Conclusion....
Know and trust your resources, the stuff they sell in the plastic containers in dispensaries .......
That is the true "Mystery Oil"
Be safe guys,
[sd]

THIS^^^^^^^^^^

God dammit, if you come across solvent extracted concentrated cannabis in a dispensary which is sold in a plastic container consider, it rubbish right off the bat. I don't care how it looks. That is how I feel.

 

[Growcephus]

"Dabbing" pretty much fucks up one of the THE best aspects of ganja, and that is the fact that it's a natural product with NO potentially harmful additives or processing adjuncts.

Probably why nobodies ever been admitted to a hospital with collapsed lungs due to smoking or vaping it...

 

[WelderDan]

Pneumothorax is most common in young thin males, and most commonly happens in the left lung. Thats what my thoracic surgeon told me before he opened me up and took out a chunk of my lung. The first time it happened, it just happened. No coughing, just shortness of breath and chest pain. I was like 24 and thought I was having a heart attack. A quick X-ray showed it was a collapsed lung. I was a cigarette smoker and serious pot head.

The second time it happened I was coughing and I felt it let go. Knew exactly what it was so i asked my neighbor to drive me to the ER. I told the admitting nurse I thought my lung collapsed. She asked me why I thought that, and I told her I had a history of it. A doctor was walking by, and overheard what I said. He was standing behind her when she tossed a clipboard at me and told me to fill it out, and that patients don't get to do their own diagnosis, it was up to a doctor to decide.

The doctor fucking flipped out. He told me to come right on around and get into the exam room right now. Then he chewed that nurse out three ways from Sunday. Then he came back and gave me a big honking shot of Demerol, and went and chewed her out some more. Then I got the chest tube. That shit ain't fun. Neither is having your ribs separated and a chunk of lung removed.

I've since met 1 girl and three other guys that had the same surgery. All of us were in our 20's, and it was the left lung in all of us.

The doc said it was a "blib", which is a thin spot in your lung. It's genetic I guess. I know it fuckin A hurts like a bitch

Gave up the cigs, but never gave up the herb. Was toking up the day I got out of the hospital. Couldn't drive, and a sneeze literally took me to my knees in the driveway. That was 1987. Still smoke herb like a fiend, but no problems since the surgery.

 

[RonSmooth]

Reckon I'll add my 2 pennies to this piggy bank..

He only dabbed "professional" product from dispensaries.
^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sadly, I'm nearly positive this right here is the "causation"

"Professional product from dispensaries"
This statement is very close to being an oxymoron.

Oils made by persons with passion and a strong grasp of he process are a gift from the Heavens above.

I have an Auto-immune disorder and very vulnerable to ... Well, just about everything.
I've been making my own oil for about 3 years, and my health has significantly improved in all capacities since doing so.

I have a medical team of 4 different professionals, all of which encourage me to continue doing my essential oil of cannabis.

Conclusion....
Know and trust your resources, the stuff they sell in the plastic containers in dispensaries .......
That is the true "Mystery Oil"
Be safe guys,
[sd]

I see no causation.

Here is an example of this type of thinking, the logical error becomes obvious when you replace a few key words. How about this:

Tom eats a banana everyday. Tom is diagnosed with cancer. Tom tells his Doctor about his banana habit. Doctor concludes bananas gave Tom cancer.

Turns out there are hundreds of cases of people with cancer who also frequently ate bananas.

Now we have a "confirmed case of cancer caused by eating bananas"

right?

Of course not.

And IMO, skepticism is not only healthy, it is mandatory.

Conjecture, pseudo-science, advertising puffery and anecdotal "evidence" is too often presented as fact around here. This is much more damaging to the community that ruffling a few feathers in asking for evidence to back up an unsubstantiated claim.

 

[Sirdabsalot46n2]

I see no causation.

Here is an example of this type of thinking, the logical error becomes obvious when you replace a few key words. How about this:

Tom eats a banana everyday. Tom is diagnosed with cancer. Tom tells his Doctor about his banana habit. Doctor concludes bananas gave Tom cancer.

Turns out there are hundreds of cases of people with cancer who also frequently ate bananas.

Now we have a "confirmed case of cancer caused by eating bananas"

right?

Of course not.

And IMO, skepticism is not only healthy, it is mandatory.

Conjecture, pseudo-science, advertising puffery and anecdotal "evidence" is too often presented as fact around here. This is much more damaging to the community that ruffling a few feathers in asking for evidence to back up an unsubstantiated claim.

I can certainly agree with this.

Perhaps not the causation in of itself, however...

I can see it as a "link" in the proverbial "Chain Of Causation"
Factoring the source of starting material, the surface of the apparatus in which the BHO was consumed. Pests, molds etc etc seem to create said chain.

Or are you questioning my health claims?
Due to my condition, vitals,blood work is extremely routine and studied closely to monitor my immune system.

Cannabis heals, I have full confidence in that statement.

But, like I said , I concur with presented paradigm.
Respect, [sd]

 

[OLDproLg]

SUCKS to READ HEALTH PROBLEMS?

BUT,i kinda knew it was comming with BHO...
about to make some anyhow,ive tried it,it blew my
LUNGS OUT BAD,im older so i dont like that much about it?
Still im a nutcase n try anything ounce!
Peace..

 

[RonSmooth]

I can certainly agree with this.

Perhaps not the causation in of itself, however...

I can see it as a "link" in the proverbial "Chain Of Causation"
Factoring the source of starting material, the surface of the apparatus in which the BHO was consumed. Pests, molds etc etc seem to create said chain.

Or are you questioning my health claims?
Due to my condition, vitals,blood work is extremely routine and studied closely to monitor my immune system.

Cannabis heals, I have full confidence in that statement.

But, like I said , I concur with presented paradigm.
Respect, [sd]

But thats the thing, no link has been established. It could be coincidence, there could be compounding factors.

Causation can't be established without a scientific study in a controlled setting.

Add that the whole thing is hearsay. Its wouldn't even admissible in a court of law.

He could have made the whole thing up. Maybe he has ulterior motives or a vested interest in a competing product.

He might be telling the truth but the friend might have exaggerated or outright lied.

The foundation of the argument for causation is actually an unsubstantiated, second hand story posted by an anonymous stranger on the internet.

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

And I don't doubt that cannabis offers relief to people with medical conditions. I am skeptical of any substance and it actual efficacy in treating any condition if that substance hasn't undergone clinical trials.

That doesn't mean that I think everyone who feels mj helps with their condition is lying, just that I wouldn't use language that implies scientific certainty when discussing my personal experience.

I know there have been clinical trials and resulting papers that do establish cannabis's efficacy in treating certain conditions. I would feel confident discussing cannabis use in treatment of those conditions.

Just can't get on board with the "cures cancer" thing yet. It may, but I'll wait for the science before I buy the t-shirt.

Respect.

 

[Sirdabsalot46n2]

Great Post^^

 

[Photosynthesis]

I made it all up.

Now that shit is funny.

Until we get a double blind study then there is no scientific fact?

Scientific facts are always there. They just have to be organized in a way that other people pay attention to them.

I haven't eaten meat in 17 years because I believe it to be a healthier way to live my life.

No study needed.

I have to admit that I thought this thread would have devolved more already. It is only a matter of time.

 

[toketronix]

Here is an example of this type of thinking, the logical error becomes obvious when you replace a few key words. How about this:

Tom eats a banana everyday. Tom is diagnosed with cancer. Tom tells his Doctor about his banana habit. Doctor concludes bananas gave Tom cancer.

Turns out there are hundreds of cases of people with cancer who also frequently ate bananas.

Talking of "Logical errors" dabbing is nothing like eating bananas, as far as I know Bananas are not even vaguely carcinogenic, while dabbing does stress the lungs as they have evolved to only process oxygen not smoke.

So when a seasoned dab head develops serious lung problems, probability & logic point towards the dabbing.

This doesn't mean there is no doubt it was caused by the dabbing, thats not what probability infers.

 

[RonSmooth]

I made it all up.

Now that shit is funny.

Until we get a double blind study then there is no scientific fact?

I didn't say that you made it up. It was an example of a variable that could affect the outcome and one of the reasons why there is no causation.

And yes, almost. Without the scientific method, you can't have scientific fact.

Scientific facts are always there. They just have to be organized in a way that other people pay attention to them.

Facts may always be there but they aren't right there on the surface. They are buried under tons of misinformation, ignorance, mysticism, prejudice, bias ...

Someone has to dig through all the conjecture to get to the facts. The digging takes the form of scientific experiments, studies & trials.
Once a conclusion has been made, it is constantly tested and retested.

If the conclusion is sound it will stand up to scrutiny and eventually become universally accepted as fact. Then it moves into the realm of common knowledge.

I'm not sure what you meant so if I missed it please clarify. Try to be clear and coherent, I have difficulty following sometimes.

I haven't eaten meat in 17 years because I believe it to be a healthier way to live my life.

"I believe it to be a healthier way to live my life."

Great. Would you take a pill I gave you and swallow it because I believe arsenic gives you x-ray vision?


And you dont need a study because there have been thousands of studies & mountains of research on nutrition. I don't need to conduct a controlled study to determine if an avacado is more nutritious than a twinkie. I don't need a study because the studies have been done and now the information is common knowledge.

The claim "vegetarianism equals improved health" isn't specific enough for a study. Something else to consider; You could eat candy bars and drink pepsi exclusively and be "meat-free" That person would probably arrive at a different conclusion than you would.

Not to mention, a study on your eating habits & opinions would be worthless to the scientific community. No offense.

And there are thousands of studies on nutrition. Most of the facts you take for granted are a result of someones science experiment. Gravity? Evolution? Someone had to dig through a lot of bullshit before they found those facts. That were always there of course.

Even with mountains of data and volumes of research, some people refuse to abandon their beliefs. Climate change deniers and creationists come to mind.


toketronix:

The argument in the thread title is a logical fallacy. Here is the wiki entry. The relevant information is under the section titled:

"In contrast to informal fallacy"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_fallacy

I replaced the variables. Instead of dabs, I used bananas. Instead of pneumothorax, I used cancer. When you remove the emotional ties to dabs and the speculation surrounding the health effects and replace them with something unrelated, the fault in the argument becomes more apparent.

or-

It was just an example.

 

[Levitation]

Until we get a double blind study then there is no scientific fact?

Correct. And thank you for using the phrase "scientific fact". A (singular) "double blind" study still would not make any claim a scientific fact regardless of the results. That's b/c a "scientific fact" is mearly an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and accepted as true. But this truth is never final. A "double blind" study is specific & used to remove bias. Important word here: bias.

Scientific facts are always there.

So are bias lies.

I haven't eaten meat in 17 years because I believe it to be a healthier way to live my life.

Kudos, it's still not a fact more less a scientific fact.

I have to admit that I thought this thread would have devolved more already. It is only a matter of time.

I believe it is evolving, but I'm sorry no one post any evidence (even anecdotal) to remotely back your story of the thing that happened that one time to your friend.
Look, I'm not saying that I believe that bho isn't "bad" for you. Honestly, if I had to pull odds out of my ass on a whim... personally I'd say 1:4 (bho causing more lung damage than flowers: bho causing eqaul to less damage than flowers). Have I presented any scientific fact to back those odds? No Sir, but either have you.

 

[RonSmooth]

The last paragraph in the above post reminded me to clarify my position. I am not disputing the premise. I am saying that there is no proof of direct causation. And without that, what is left?

 

[Gry]

Been a fan of oil since the early 70s. Have to say that the thought of consuming anything made by anyone else just does not work for me at all.
I am unaware of a more educated person with respect to cannabis than Skunkman, and know how he feels about the subject. Find myself reaching for the screens far more often than I did.

 

[toketronix]

toketronix:

The argument in the thread title is a logical fallacy.

or-

It was just an example.

I wasn't responding to the thread title, more pointing out how your example does not apply to what is being discussed....not only does it not apply it purposely tries to invalidate a completely unrelated premise.

eg
This fruit is poisonous so this other completely different species of fruit must also be poisonous....sry but you're also making the same logical error you are accusing others of.

And yes, almost. Without the scientific method, you can't have scientific fact.

I am saying that there is no proof of direct causation. And without that, what is left?

There are plenty of scientific facts which show subjecting the lungs to anything other than clean oxygen is not going to end well....this is even further reinforced by other studies concerning combustion & hot smoke particulate entering the lungs.

Lets keep the logic but use different props:

I say hitting someone on the head with a hammer will have a negative effect on that person's health, you say thats not a fact until a scientific study is carried out, I then say there are plenty of studies all ready showing impacts to the head are generally considered a bad idea....& I don't need to actually hit you on the head with a hammer( while a scientist is watching ) to prove it.

You're saying: No, I have to actually hit you on the head with a hammer before it's a fact?

In reality there are thousands of studies showing that putting anything other than clean oxygen into the lungs is generally bad for your health, these studies also show that smoke/combustion is at the top end due to carcinogens & other nasties ...if you're suggesting dabbing is somehow exempt from these conclusions then the burden of proof is on you.

So are bias lies.

Where are the bias lies in this thread?