help :(1 week old, light green in color, yellow tips -pro-mix

[Cat Jockey]

I thought about getting an RO water filter, but I also read that if you go that route you will have to supplement with cal/mag.

That is incorrect information. One of the origins of that myth is the fact that a large portion of what is in tap water is Ca, and some Mg. RO got popular and people thought they were putting two and two together to get 4. The only reason you need to add Cal/Mag to a nutrient regiment in a peat/perlite/vermiculite mix (which is what I think you are using - think I saw you added dolomite lime, as well, which I don't understand why ...), is if your base nutrient mfg didn't put enough Ca and Mg in there, like with Botanicrap's Pure Blend Pro line.

Another significant contributor to that myth is the large number of threads, over the years, that involve Ca or Mg deficiencies. In many cases, the reason for those def is the use of tap water and/or improper pH in the rootzone, or a combination thereof.

Tap water in the low to mid 8's like yours can really fuck things up, pH wise, in the rootzone and lead to lockout conditions. It isn't just the ppm and alkalinity, it's the also the buffering capacity of what is actually in that tap water. In addition, just barely watering enough like you are going to have to do with 4 gallon pots and a seedling is a real easy way to get a build up of salts in the rootzone, jacking the pH up and creating lockout conditions. And flushing your rootzone when that does happen is going to be a pain in the ass, 'cause you will have way too much growing medium to roots ratio.

I've never grown an autoflower. But I would be very surprised if an autoflower somehow does not take to repotting well. It is a relatively stress free process, if done properly. Perhaps root growth ends earlier on autoflowers, so it may seem that the roots didn't 'take to the process' and fill out the next pot with explosive root growth.

I just don't buy it, though, and think it Internet Echo Chamber information. Autoflower or not, that pot size and tap pH are going to most likely have a negative impact on the quality and quantity of the chop of yer crop...

 

[boooyah]

I appreciate the advice cat jockey, you appear to be quite knowledgeable. The dolomite lime was added for cal/mag, as well as a ph buffer.

I will be using earth juice lineup, because it is organic I didn't think I would have salt buildup during the grow. I believe I also read that earth juice nutes need some calcium to bind with, and with an ro system the nutes end up sitting at the bottom of the tea reservoir.
I was under the assumption it wasn't necessary to do a flush with organic nutes either. The ph down from earth juice says it is citric acid. I forgot about the ph buffers they use in tap water, I was wondering why the ph always creeped back up, I used to know once upon a time.

I've been checking out RO filters, looks like I can find one locally for about 200$. I'm a little nervous about going that route because I haven't done much research on the topic. I would need to get ahold of a tds/ec meter too I would imagine.. When you would normally use plain water inbetween feedings would you use plain RO water, or would that be tooo pure? I think I read that you should bring your tds up to 200ppm or something?

I did a few grows before using sunshine mix #4, and dutch nutrient fert's and it all worked out pretty good. Just trying to stay away from the chemicals this time around, and trying to get my head around it all.

I added the ewc to try to add organic matter to the pro-mix I didn't think it would have an adverse effect on the seedlings. Most of my info has come from reading the boards and it seems there is alot of info but many sides to each story.

Thanks again for the input.

 

[2 Legal Co]

I understand the caution that must be taken to prevent over watering. Other than the 4 liters the one day, they only get about 200ml of water very other day or so..

Probably should be that much in a week, maybe less.... A moisture meter is cheap and helpful.

Also at this stage they shouldn't have had any extra/added nutes.

Popping seeds, I use a seedling mix that is mostly peat and perlite,,, and almost NO food in it. That way they grow roots looking for food.

 

[Cat Jockey]

You're asking for advice and a couple of us have suggested pot size will become a real issue very soon. You don't like that advice. My advice to you, since not overwatering in that much soil, plus your high pH tap water, will eventually lead to a salt build up/nutirent lockout, is to read.

My suggestion is you study up on how to identify and contend with the impending problem you will have, since you don't seem overly interested in dealing with it now ...

Seedlings need very little in the way of fertilizers. Don't add any more for a bit.

 

[boooyah]

Autoflower cannabis plants have a very short life cycle and they use all their power to develop buds and grow them as fast as possible. Some of these small marijuana plants can be ready to harvest in just 60 days so there is no room for any stress that would stunt them. Basically autoflower plants are best to start in their final pots and not to stress them and slow down their development in any way.

Transplanting autoflowering plants can stress them and stunt their growth by 1 to 7 days and if the plant only lives for 60 days then that means you can cut almost 10 % of its life time by just transplanting it.

Some autoflowering cannabis growers transplant their plants and still get decent yield but if you would plant two exact autoflower seeds side by side and start one of these plants in a 2 gallon (7.4 liter) pot. But the other plant in a solo party cup and then transplant it later to the real pot then you could see that the transplanted plant would be smaller and would yield less.

from autoflower-cannabis.net

 

[boooyah]

Probably should be that much in a week, maybe less.... A moisture meter is cheap and helpful.

Also at this stage they shouldn't have had any extra/added nutes.

Popping seeds, I use a seedling mix that is mostly peat and perlite,,, and almost NO food in it. That way they grow roots looking for food.

That much water in a 4 gal pot, is barely enough to saturate the top half inch if its spread out. With the fans on constantly, they seem to dry out quite fast.

You said "almost NO food", I thought that 3 cups of ewc into 4 gal containers counted as "almost NO food" Then they started yellowing..

 

[boooyah]

I will more than likely purchase a RO system today, but yes more researching is required because from what I have read the people using tap water have had great results, and the ones using RO water are the ones having problems with earth juice specifically.

 

[boooyah]

The only nutes I have given was the .5ml in a half a gallon, and that was because I didn't know what was wrong, and having giving nothing but plain water I figured doing something was better than nothing.

The .5ml in a half a gallon, works out to .25ml per gal, and it recommends 5-10ml per gallon, so I gave then 1/20th or 1/40th strength, of microblast. I realize they need no food for the first 2-3 weeks, apparently I was confused about the EWC.

 

[Cat Jockey]

Autoflower cannabis plants have a very short life cycle and they use all their power to develop buds and grow them as fast as possible. Some of these small marijuana plants can be ready to harvest in just 60 days so there is no room for any stress that would stunt them.

Which is precisely why I am suggesting you repot them ASAP. Repotting is not this stressful, 'stunting' operation you keep referring to it as. Granted you have a seedling on your hands, but starting out in the proper sized pot and then repotting at the appropriate time is not 'stunting' to the plants growth. What is stressful as fuck for your plants, stunts their growth and affects both the final quantity and quality of your harvest, is using a mix unneccesarily dosed up with lime and then watering so little that you will not achieve a good 10-15% runoff with your ferts and you subsequently end up with a salt build up, affecting the rootzone pH and leading to some nutirent lock out.

You have to weigh two options here booya - the stress of repotting your seedlings, or growing your seedlings, in your mix and pot size, as is.

You are certainly free to think I am full 'o shit, but what I am telling you is that if you go the latter route, and keep on going the way you are describing, your final harvest will be less in quantity and quality, and you will have more problems the entire grow.

Basically autoflower plants are best to start in their final pots and not to stress them and slow down their development in any way.

Says who? There's a lot of bad info on the weed forums about certain things. And again, the myth that repotting stunts or slows down a plants growth is precisely that - healthy plants don't skip a beat, if done right. I ain't a dick, and I haven't followed what's been going on in the autoflower scene. But, when they first started coming around, the only people interested in them were beginner growers.

Which is absolutely okay - every expert grower was a beginner.

Subsequently, that's who did most of the talking on the weed forums about how to grow autoflowers and what worked best, etc. Mostly beginner/intermediate growers using CFLs. Further, and I make no insinuation to any particular breeder, autoflower or otherwise, but what it mostly takes to be a breeder these days is balls - not super advanced growing knowledge.

I'll spare names, but I could take you on a tour of the pics of some of the gardens of some well known breeders and point out various nutritional disorders on their plants. Show you 'experts in marijuana cultivation' that really just have more balls than pure growing skill. I won't even get into the fact that a large number of them are pollen chuckers, not breeders actually breeding a stable strain.

So my question to you, booya, what gardens is all of this information you have gathered and are saying trumps mine, coming from? That the 'stunting stress' of repotting is so much worse for an autflower than the absolute salt and pH mess you are going to create in your rootzone, including your additional lime by using the correct sized pot and soiless mix?

Transplanting autoflowering plants can stress them and stunt their growth by 1 to 7 days and if the plant only lives for 60 days then that means you can cut almost 10 % of its life time by just transplanting it.

Not in my garden, it wouldn't.

Whether you agree with or like what I'm sayin', I am just trying to be blunt, direct, and honest with you and what I have learned so you can get the most and the best quality weed for your particualr setup ...

 

[2 Legal Co]

That much water in a 4 gal pot, is barely enough to saturate the top half inch if its spread out. With the fans on constantly, they seem to dry out quite fast.

You said "almost NO food", I thought that 3 cups of ewc into 4 gal containers counted as "almost NO food" Then they started yellowing..

The fast dry out is what you want..... it encourages root growth,,, as does the lack of nutrients. One possible solution is to 'bottom water', letting the soil 'wick' the moisture up into the pot. It's a slow process and MUST be carefully monitored, or you can still get the 'soggy seedling' syndrome, but done properly the 'moist' level will be at the bottom, so the roots will seek it out naturally.

Keep in mind as you get replies, that most of us have not done what you have,,, probably.

I certainly have not planted seedlings that small into that big of a pot. And I've never top dressed with EWC at this stage either....nor have I had water that came out of the tap at your levels..Mine comes out at 6.5-6.6....

I Have transplanted into potting soil from seedling mix.... and got the same results you did however. So that was too much nutrient as well.

I have gotten too big of a pot and had trouble getting it do a wet/dry cycle.... and they've 'damped off'.... and did not recover... oops.

I've also lost seedlings to 'lack of light', they got leggy and toppled over.... yet another oops.

I've also had plants that did not drink/eat as well as their sisters (didn't care about the males lol), and they've stopped eating and drinking entirely... Dam near lost a couple..

Keep in mind that I'm a 'numbers restricted' grower in Colo., so my mistakes are most obvious. Limit 6per person, only three of them 'mature' plants.

Closest thing I've grown to an Auto Flower, is an AK47 Pheno. That wants to be sexy, even with 24/0 lighting. Making it very difficult to keep as a mother. So that handicaps me somewhat in answering your questions.

I also have heard/read, that transplanting is a bad thing. But most of us don't have the luxury of keeping seedlings in large pots, as we are space limited... and I'm too cheap to burn that much lighting as well. I simply try to keep the roots from circling before transplant, which seems to virtually eliminate the 'transplanting shock', however. My biggest shock is when the clones go from water, to dirt. It seems to take a bit for the roots to adapt.

I look forward to the day I can plant a 'row' of MJ seeds in my garden and not have to look over my shoulder. Natural drainage is obviously the best, but you still wouldn't want to lose seedlings to birds, wind, and the force of rain hitting them,,, so you're back to starting them in cups and transplanting them when they are mature enough to stand the 'elements'.

Sorry for being so long winded, but I was at your knowledge level not so long ago myself, and the learning curve has been very steep. Thankfully I've had people to learn from who helped me avoid, or at least mitigate the pitfalls. Also keep in mind that there is much 'lore' on the internet. You may find as I have that the phrase 'Your mileage may vary', is inevitably true.

I still find it amazing that 'brick' weed isn't all you can get. And also, that seeds are valuable/expensive to procure. $5-$10 per seed? Wow.... that makes a 'seed run' plant, which might produce several thousand seeds, way more valuable than a virgin smokable plant.......

 

[2 Legal Co]

""" and having giving nothing but plain water I figured doing something was better than nothing."""

That assumption has cost most of us dearly.

'Loveing them to death', is what it's know as.... FYI

Best advice: It's a weed, leave it alone and it'll grow....... you can can 'love it and light it' when it's cured.

 

[boooyah]

Hey 2 legal,

I appreciate the long winded reply.

"The fast dry out is what you want..... it encourages root growth,,, as does the lack of nutrients." - For what it is worth, the plants are in Roots Air pots, they are made of fabric and they breath nicely.

"And I've never top dressed with EWC at this stage either....nor have I had water that came out of the tap at your levels.." - I mixed the EWC into the soil, I thought ewc were quite mild, and adding them into the pro-mix would add some "biological media" to the soilless mix.

Looks like I underestimated the power of EWC. I thought it was more or less rich dirt, I didn't think that small amount would be able to burn anything

 

[Cat Jockey]

I'll get the hell outta this thread after this post, as I am not trying to fug it up with some big argument. But I will make this last post, 'cause I'm trying to get a newer grower steered in the right direction, and have the most success possible - which, incidentally is the only reason I visit the Infirmary, it's a goal I have. To see if I can get a least one new grower steered in the right direction when they start a thread asking for help on diagnosing and fixing a problem.

To do that, I feel it necessary to not just drop a post with some suggestions, but make sure that person doesn't get steered in the wrong direction, which can easily happen on weed forums. I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm trying to remain committed to helping the thread starter do the right things for his/her girls.

Doing so requires me being blunt and diret, certainly in this case, 'cause them seeds just popped and they have yellowing leaves, are stressed, etc., and there just ain't a whole buch 'o time for pussyfootin' around the sitch-e-ation.

Somethings about how this grow has gone and was planning to go need to change very quickly, else a harvest is in jeopardy. Agree or disagree, that is how I see it and the motivations for my continued posting in this thread, not to be a dick.

The fast dry out is what you want..... it encourages root growth,,, as does the lack of nutrients. One possible solution is to 'bottom water', letting the soil 'wick' the moisture up into the pot. It's a slow process and MUST be carefully monitored, or you can still get the 'soggy seedling' syndrome, but done properly the 'moist' level will be at the bottom, so the roots will seek it out naturally.

Sweet Lady Jane indeed likes dry feet and likes to dry-out inbetween waterings. I'll strongly advise against, however, taking a 4 gallon pot with am already stressed seedling in it and trying to bottom water it. You will end up with 4 gallons of very saturated grow media that will not dry out for days and days, and it will stress the plant. Add to that the lime that has been added into the promix and whatever love juice he has already poured on it, and doing that could kill them, since they are already showing signs of stress.

Let's not forget the we don't just have a pot size issue here. We have the issue of lime that shouldn't have been added to the growing medium and shot 'o dat love juice that new growers are wont to use too much of, too soon.

It ain't just the pot size. Those seedlings need to be repotted into a new growing medium that doesn't have all that stuff going on.

Keep in mind as you get replies, that most of us have not done what you have,,, probably.

Well, no, I have never put an autoflower seedling in a 4 gallon pot with promix dosed up with lime. But I have grown a whole bunch 'o weed in peat/perlite/vermiculite 5 gallon homer buckets. And a lot more stuff than that. And I have transplanted a whole bunch of marijuana plants in that time. I don't care that it is an autflower. The only real big thing I would be concerned with there is learning when it stopped growing roots.

But I flat out call bullshit on whatever rumor is floating around the weed forums about how autoflowers get stressed for up to a week from a transplanting and that they need to be started in final pot size. I don't care if breeders are sayin' it ...

I cannot emphasize enough that not overwatering will lead to rootzone issues I mentioned, way more stressful and way more impactful, negatively, than any of this supposed week long stress supposedly involved with transplanting an autoflower.

Not only is transplanting not this hugely stressful thing, the results of doing so are good. It gives you a more uniformed root structure, which aids in the way the growing media and root structure hold and filter the nutrient solution and give homogenous exposure throughout the pot.

It gives you finer and more even control of your nutrient regime.

Yes, you can stress a plant transplanting. If you do it wrong, if you get new growing media too wet, etc. But doing it right isn't that difficult. And doing it right really isn't stressful in the way being talked about in this thread.

I have gotten too big of a pot and had trouble getting it do a wet/dry cycle.... and they've 'damped off'.... and did not recover... oops.

He doesn't have 'too big of a pot', he has 'WAY too big of a pot'.

Keep in mind that I'm a 'numbers restricted' grower in Colo.,

My Colorado brutha or sister, I ain't trying to be a dick. Hope you understand why I took issue with specific points in your post, and the intention, agree with my advise to booyah or not, is to help.

Yea ... numbers restricted in Colorado. That's never really worked for me. Lol. I've had fun in the asshole puckering x,xxx plant count game. I'm just trying to share what I've learned over the years. And I don't know it all, but I do know some ...

Pretty sweet place we got here. We'll just keep to ourselves how kickass Colorado is and not let anyone know ...

All ya'll have a lovely afternoon. Think my opinion is pretty clear. Best 'o luck, booyah. You'll need less luck along the way, if you follow my advice, though. It's a stressed seedling, so yes, be very gentle. Read up on transplanting. Don't over wet new soil. Don't always accept 'commonly accepted and regurgitated facts on the weed forums' as actual facts. The sooner, the better.

 

[heatherlonglee]

Read this posting about Pro-Mix
www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=271663

 

[Cat Jockey]

Read this posting about Pro-Mix
www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=271663

I read it. What information in there are we supposed to extract about promix that applies here?

 

[Cat Jockey]

Nevermind. Taken to PM ... I don't see a delete button in the edit post mode.

 

[heatherlonglee]

From the read you should be able to deduce this!
1. Pro-Mix is ph stable and ready to go, lime already applied. Lime not needed.
2. If you don't over fertilize the medium or dump a bunch of lousy tap water (high in Bicarbonates) or RO (lacking Bicarbonates) water through the pot; the medium will handle the ph all by itself.
3. Fertilize with a ph balanced nutrient that specifically recommends a type of water that you use (hard water or RO water blends) and Bicarbonates will be closely matched.
4. The added lime (by OP) is going to most likely raise the ph at some point to a unacceptable level.
5. Fertilize at low to medium level every watering, or if you must flush, mix tap and RO water 1/2 & 1/2 to a ratio of 50-170 ppm is best.

 

[Smokin Joe]

Smoke report?

Didn't reead the whole thread but desided to open my mouth anyway. I have been using promix for years with and have reused to mix after a good flush with no ph problems and neer add an once of lime till the 4th reuse. It already has the lime so adding lime to fresh promix is kind of a waste I feel anyway. But thats not your problem. Themz babbyz and dont need a thing to eat but what they brought to this would with them in the cotyledons. I never feed my seedlings (other then root stimulator) till the cotyledons start to yellow. Also like has been said the pot size is to large for the root system. Mold is almost inevitable. I would repot them into solo cups till they get a good root system and then start the bigger pots. jmho

 

[heatherlonglee]

If the medium hadn't been over limed, I'd say that if the plants are growing then everything is fine. The first few sets of leaves the next few weeks won't be doing anything significant when the plant gets large. If the babies are growing and sprouting new green growth all is good, don't be tripping out about every little leaf. Use a spray bottle mister to water in such a big pot until the plants get larger. Fertilize every watering (misting spray bottle) at extreme low levels until plant is larger. Keep just the top moist the bottom will stay moist on its own for quiet a while.

Plants look fine to me if they are growing? At some point the ph of the medium with added lime will start to affect plants though.

 

[boooyah]

Thanks heatherlonglee, and smokin' joe.

Seems like I goofed up adding the lime into the mix.. The plants are growing like mad, new leaves look good, things seem to be looking up for them. I think the EWC were a just too much for the little guys.

According to that link about the pro-mix, if I were to use RO water to keep the bicarbonates low it would help to prevent the addition of more lime..

Am I correct that the lime I added will take a few months to change the ph of the soil? These are fast growing plants and should be hung to dry in bout 2 months from seed. Also, the lime I used was not powdered, it was small clay pebbles.

I really do appreciate all of your opinions, I will get an updated pic to show you how they are coming along.