what happened to my erl?

[shredGnar]

So I ran my bho in a vac chamber on top of a hot plate...approx 110° F.

The edges are nice..very glass like and you can see thru it.

The inside bit is cloudy and has bubbles in it but it's still quite hard..

Maybe I ran it too long?

Also I am running a 5cfm robinaire 2 stage vac pump in a 3 gal vac chamber but only achieving 24" of mercury according to the gauge...but I think maybe it's because I'm already at approx 7500 ft above sea level And starting at a lower air pressure.

Tips are appreciated!

 

[nakadashi]

My guess is that the thinner parts were able to sufficiently purge and the thicker portions exhibited waxing.

 

[-Boris]

So I ran my bho in a vac chamber on top of a hot plate...approx 110° F.

Is this the temp of the hotplate or the erl?

I wouldn't recommend having the desiccator directly on the hot plate. When I use a pot desiccator I have it partially submerged in a larger pot filled with water (some prefer sand). There is a steel cooling rack in between the bottom of the desiccator and the floor of the water pot. inside the desiccator I have another steel rack with a silicone baking mat overtop that fits the bottom of the desiccator perfectly. This rack is used to keep the erl raised from the hot poorly conductive surface of the desiccator. Using this method allows the erl to be heated by the air around it rather than just from underneath, similar to the way a vacuum oven works.

Uneven heating isn't the only factor that causes the budder effect. Agitation causes buddering more-so than heat. From the time of blasting to the the time the oil is done I try to keep agitation to a minimal. It's hard to avoid agitation if you spray onto pyrex, but the best way to attempt to avoid this is to pre-purge before scraping. you can do this one of two ways, if your pyrex fits into your chamber you can pull a muffin on it untill it is stable enough to chip or pull it out of the dish. The alternative is to leave the pyrex on low heat (under 120f) overnight or until it doesn't foam or bubble up when you scrape it. A great alternative to pyrex that I have switched to is PTFE Teflon sheet. It's basically a plastic sheet that works just like parchment and cannot be broken down by non-polar solvents. Oilslick trademarked the product so it is easy to find but quite pricey, although it is reusable.

when you begin to purge let the erl muffin out and fall back down into a thin film, refrain from trying to spread it out with a rolling pin or by any other means. Agitation = whipping!

as for your pump pulling 25hg at 7500ft above sea level thats normal here is a chart to prove that point. I am currently using a small single stage 3cfm pump and it works wonders.

I hope this post was helpful to you aswell as the rest of the icmag community. Everything above is based on my understanding of how things work and I welcome any input or criticism. Happy oil making. cheers!

 

[Momerath]

Looks like you made honeycomb. This is usually caused from over-purging. This can result from one or a combination of things. In your case, heat was too high for how deep of a vacuum you pulled. This can result in nucleation (as you have noticed ) which will eventually turn the whole patty into a hard honeycomb consistency.

If you are going for shatter, try a thinner patty, and try not to pull so deep of a vacuum. I would not recommend going over 115f and under -29.5"Hg vacuum. Shatter can usually be achieved with temps around 100-105f. I wouldn't go up to 110f until the oil is completely non-reactive at a lower temps, and that is only if it still isn't to the desired shatter consistency by that point. Going any higher with temps or deeper with the vac will often result in the phenomena you observed, or even worse, decarboxylation, which will leave you with a sticky, gooey mess.

 

[ceosam]

Momerath has got it right

 

[shredGnar]

Is this the temp of the hotplate or the erl?

I wouldn't recommend having the desiccator directly on the hot plate. When I use a pot desiccator I have it partially submerged in a larger pot filled with water (some prefer sand). There is a steel cooling rack in between the bottom of the desiccator and the floor of the water pot. inside the desiccator I have another steel rack with a silicone baking mat overtop that fits the bottom of the desiccator perfectly. This rack is used to keep the erl raised from the hot poorly conductive surface of the desiccator. Using this method allows the erl to be heated by the air around it rather than just from underneath, similar to the way a vacuum oven works.

Uneven heating isn't the only factor that causes the budder effect. Agitation causes buddering more-so than heat. From the time of blasting to the the time the oil is done I try to keep agitation to a minimal. It's hard to avoid agitation if you spray onto pyrex, but the best way to attempt to avoid this is to pre-purge before scraping. you can do this one of two ways, if your pyrex fits into your chamber you can pull a muffin on it untill it is stable enough to chip or pull it out of the dish. The alternative is to leave the pyrex on low heat (under 120f) overnight or until it doesn't foam or bubble up when you scrape it. A great alternative to pyrex that I have switched to is PTFE Teflon sheet. It's basically a plastic sheet that works just like parchment and cannot be broken down by non-polar solvents. Oilslick trademarked the product so it is easy to find but quite pricey, although it is reusable.

when you begin to purge let the erl muffin out and fall back down into a thin film, refrain from trying to spread it out with a rolling pin or by any other means. Agitation = whipping!

as for your pump pulling 25hg at 7500ft above sea level thats normal here is a chart to prove that point. I am currently using a small single stage 3cfm pump and it works wonders.

I hope this post was helpful to you aswell as the rest of the icmag community. Everything above is based on my understanding of how things work and I welcome any input or criticism. Happy oil making. cheers!

This was perfect..very insightful.

I believe I over agitated the oil.. I blew it directly onto an oil slick pad and was a bit aggressive with assisting the butane in evaporation..

Next time I will do like you say and vac it after I have the oil, then chip out the foam and then I assume on heat around 110 F and then vac?

When it muffins should I push down to flatten it or just open the valve slowly?

 

[shredGnar]

Looks like you made honeycomb. This is usually caused from over-purging. This can result from one or a combination of things. In your case, heat was too high for how deep of a vacuum you pulled. This can result in nucleation (as you have noticed ) which will eventually turn the whole patty into a hard honeycomb consistency.

If you are going for shatter, try a thinner patty, and try not to pull so deep of a vacuum. I would not recommend going over 115f and under -29.5"Hg vacuum. Shatter can usually be achieved with temps around 100-105f. I wouldn't go up to 110f until the oil is completely non-reactive at a lower temps, and that is only if it still isn't to the desired shatter consistency by that point. Going any higher with temps or deeper with the vac will often result in the phenomena you observed, or even worse, decarboxylation, which will leave you with a sticky, gooey mess.

Thank you bro.. Makes sense. To be totally honest I was just approximating temp with my hands lol.

I also need to use sand or water with a steel rack like Boris was saying.

So after you've got your oil blown and it is mostly evaporated..

Do you get it warm, then draw the vac? After it muffins, letting it fall back down due to the heat?

Looking to make glass/shatter. I've been shown the light and have no interest in wax or honeycomb any longer.

Thanks again

 

[Jnugg]

From what Greywolf and other oil gods have said,it's not a good idea to extract straight onto the oil slick pads as butane can break it down.

But I've heard you can directly extract onto the PTFE pads.

 

[shredGnar]

From what Greywolf and other oil gods have said,it's not a good idea to extract straight onto the oil slick pads as butane can break it down.

But I've heard you can directly extract onto the PTFE pads.

Good to know.. I thought they were inert and could handle the solvents but ill stay away. Thank you

Sure wouldn't mind if Grey Wolf stopped by

 

[Jnugg]

From what I've heard and read...the slick pads are just fine for partially purged oil (oil that's gone through the initial hot water bath purge).But it can be broken down by the liquid butane.

And like I've said,I have heard that it is safe to extract directly on to the PFTE sheets...but don't take my word for it.

Try PMing GW if he doesn't check into the thread.

 

[-Boris]

This was perfect..very insightful.

I believe I over agitated the oil.. I blew it directly onto an oil slick pad and was a bit aggressive with assisting the butane in evaporation..

Next time I will do like you say and vac it after I have the oil, then chip out the foam and then I assume on heat around 110 F and then vac?

When it muffins should I push down to flatten it or just open the valve slowly?

I would just blast the oil into the pyrex and like Jnugg said stay away from spraying on the silicone mats. Once you have sprayed it let it evaporate entirely on its own on slight heat if necessary.

If you want to avoid scraping but only have pyrex you can place your dish in a chamber that is large enough, pull a muffin and let it purge untill its a sappy shatter or half-muffin and chip it out and place it on parchment. When it muffins don't assist it by flattening it that agitates it too much. A muffin should rise and fall on its own the valve should only be opened if the muffin gets out of control. Another tip; place a piece of coffee filter, or any porous paper over the release valve. It slows the air flow so there is no vortex inside the chamber and no dust can get in when releasing vac.

The pieces you have chipped out may not spread out into a proper thin film under vac so i would purge till no reaction and gently spread the slab out between 2 baking mats or or parchment with low heat. Heating it up too much or being too aggressive may cause buddering at this stage.

 

[-Boris]

The pieces you have chipped out may not spread out into a proper thin film under vac so i would purge till no reaction and gently spread the slab out between 2 baking mats or or parchment with low heat. Heating it up too much or being too aggressive may cause buddering at this stage.

edit* it will likley spread out on its own but sometimes with larger runs thats not the case

 

[Momerath]

As far as the heat purge goes, I try and get as much butane out before it goes into the vacuum. I heat purge mine around 100f for 10 minutes per gram of oil. I just visually estimate how much is in the pan. For example if I run a pound of trim, I can safely assume there is at least 45 grams in the try. 45 x 10min = ~9 hours low heat purge. I have found that doing a good heat purge prior to vac decreases the chances of my oil nucleating due to trapped butane while under vac.

Also, I try and get my oil to the target purge temp BEFORE I pull a vac on it. Temp fluctuations under vacuum are much more drastic even if they are small in the sense of going from 105 to 110, than at normal atmospheric pressure. A lot of trial and error has confirmed this for me. I get the best results when temp is achieved before applying vacuum, as well as MAINTAINING the same temp throughout.

Buy an IR thermometer. They aren't too pricey and will save you a lot of headache.

Also, I would start with a lower temp if shatter is your goal. Try the lower temp heat purge, followed by a vac purge at about 100-105 (again, get an IR thermometer to ensure you aren't overshooting), and don't pull to a full vac. I usually pull until I have a nice muffin (around -15"Hg or so) and let it sit there until it begins to collapse. A lot of people pull a deeper vac to get it to collapse sooner, but I have found if you let it take its time, it will slowly collapse while maintaining viscosity so the trapped butane can still escape.
After the muffin collapse, I will pull a slightly deeper vac (-20"hg perhaps) and repeat the process of letting it settle on its own. I keep doing this until I reach about -29.5"Hg and then let it stay there until it is no longer reactive. Then flip the patty and put back under -29.5"Hg until non-reactive. I will flip a total of 5-6 times, until the reaction has slowed considerably, or halted altogether. flipping the patty brings trapped butane out of the underside of the patty, giving you a more complete purge. usually by the 6th flip, it is hard as a jolly rancher when cooled to room temp.

 

[shredGnar]

Should have posted this earlier, but this worked great for me.

I pulled the muffin, chipped it out then it on parchment and let it warm up to 110. Then a vac was pulled until it was a sheet of glass.

Thank you much, bros.

 

[JointOperation]

whats the highest temps your hardest shatter will remain a complete Shatter and not melt and get taffy like.?

 

[shredGnar]

whats the highest temps your hardest shatter will remain a complete Shatter and not melt and get taffy like.?

Didn't do much testing.. it gets soft in my pocket but hardens right back up after cooling..