IBL's list

[oldchuck]

MJ, you are surrounded by a modern cultivar no doubt. Traits were selected to facilitate quick, fat harvests with minimal labor. They probably were also concerned with protein levels and a variety of other issues. They are, however, losing genetic diversity and this is of increasing concern for many overworked agricultural crops. I'm not scientist enough to run a real argument for diversity but it feels right to me. I'm thinking the same is true for Cannabis or maybe could become true. Cannabis is a remarkably diverse species so I'm not too worried about it. But diversity rules.

No, I do not use a combine. I grow pretty small patches on rocky hillside. Northern New England remember? I harvest by hand. I grow the wheat to preserve and propagate the diverse genetics. Of course, I will do some "selecting" from crop to crop but I'm not trying to breed some new cultivar.

 

[Only Ornamental]

This post leads me to believe that you do not have a problem spreading misinformation and that it is excusable!
WTF gives?

NOMENCLATURE IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT WHEN DISCUSSING BREEDING...

So why are you going to jump on this individual for pointing out your purportedly intentional piece of misinformation then ask me to do the same...

If you're only looking for an argument, please step away from the boards.

Usually, I like things correct but sometimes small 'misuses' can be practical (and as said, I was hoping that no one would remark). Feel free to correct these things (but not by naming it 'crap' but by naming it 'crap that rightly would be this or that'). I'm not out for an argument but I like a good discussion with funded arguments and counter-arguments. You do as if I'm saying the world were flat and that I'm the only one seeding very bad misinformation (I feel offended, I'm one of those few willing to explain very meticulously and copious; everyone makes mistakes and no one knows all and thinks of everything everytime). It's one minor thing (which I later on and out of my free will used correctly) WHILST NEARLY EVERYONE USES THE TERM 'STRAIN' ON A DAILY BASIS AND CALLS AN NLD C. INDICA 'SATIVA' THAT'S JUST WRONG AND NOBODY GIVES A FUCK (YOU INCLUDED). I don't blame anyone for that although nomenclature is extremely important when discussing breeding... So, why don't we remain calm and nice with each other?

 

[Only Ornamental]

It would be nearly impossible to stabilise anything without "line breeding", aka, IBLs

IBL quite simply means InBreed Line.
It is typically associated with homozygos, stabil, true breeding cultivars but stability is not always the case.

IBLs can be derived in several ways.
The fastest and most detrimental being selfing beyond S1. While fixing desirable traits undesirable traits are also fixed, to be passed to the next generation.

The next fastest method for producing an IBL line would be the back cross. Back crossing can be performed in a few ways as well. It is not as detrimental to the gene pool being worked and has both advantages & disadvantages like selfing. A bx is simply "cross generational breeding within a line."

Next in line, for rapidity in producing IBL lines would be using any combination of the above and below mentioned breeding methods.

The next method for producing an IBL line would be simple filial generational matings using 1:1 sibling matings.

The absolute slowest method for producing IBLs would be open pollenated generational breeding.

I hope this clears some of the air as well...

Next...

Sorry MJ, but line breeding is not the same as inbreeding and a line bred variety is even less the same as an inbred variety. Line breeding is broader/larger and usually done with many individuals and/or with less related individuals where inbreeding involves either very few specimens or tightly related ones. And what you say (it's nicely formulated, I've got to admit) has nothing to do with science or nomenclature but with commoners cannabis breeding. A real IBL does not exist in cannabis and to obtain a such, open pollination for example won't work. But you're right when looking at a cannabis IBL for what it is; a more or less stabilised variety usually with a lot of heterozygosity and being only true breeding for traits the breeder or grower will see with his bare eyes (and eventually an HPLC or GC)... If you want to be so correct, please stop using the term IBL . But no worries, I won't mind if you don't (no one else does, anyway LOL).

 

[MJPassion]

MJ, you are surrounded by a modern cultivar no doubt. Traits were selected to facilitate quick, fat harvests with minimal labor. They probably were also concerned with protein levels and a variety of other issues. They are, however, losing genetic diversity and this is of increasing concern for many overworked agricultural crops. I'm not scientist enough to run a real argument for diversity but it feels right to me. I'm thinking the same is true for Cannabis or maybe could become true. Cannabis is a remarkably diverse species so I'm not too worried about it. But diversity rules.

No, I do not use a combine. I grow pretty small patches on rocky hillside. Northern New England remember? I harvest by hand. I grow the wheat to preserve and propagate the diverse genetics. Of course, I will do some "selecting" from crop to crop but I'm not trying to breed some new cultivar.

I'm pretty sure you are correct in assuming the wheat is a commercial strain... the farmers probably wouldnt grow it by the square mile (640 acres) if it weren't.
Though, I think there are heirloom varieties being grown as well. Monsanto doesn't rule here yet and a lot of the farmers plant from the previous seasons crops. ;D

This dry land winter wheat (red wheat I believe) has some of the highest protien content in the nation too.

 

[MJPassion]

Sorry MJ, but line breeding is not the same as inbreeding and a line bred variety is even less the same as an inbred variety. Line breeding is broader/larger and usually done with many individuals and/or with less related individuals where inbreeding involves either very few specimens or tightly related ones. And what you say (it's nicely formulated, I've got to admit) has nothing to do with science or nomenclature but with commoners cannabis breeding. A real IBL does not exist in cannabis and to obtain a such, open pollination for example won't work. But you're right when looking at a cannabis IBL for what it is; a more or less stabilised variety usually with a lot of heterozygosity and being only true breeding for traits the breeder or grower will see with his bare eyes (and eventually an HPLC or GC)... If you want to be so correct, please stop using the term IBL . But no worries, I won't mind if you don't (no one else does, anyway LOL).

Please define what YOU mean when you say IBL... InBreed Line.

This is clearly where the confusion lies. Until there is a solid, agreed upon definition, these discussions will continue in a big assed loop-d-loop.

 

[MJPassion]

I'm sorry, OO, if you are offended but I've yet to see anybody else admit to intentionally misleading a discussion. You did and it's in the record now.
The comment affects your credibility, nothing more.

I mean... you stuck your own foot in your mouth.

 

[Only Ornamental]

^^^ that got me lmao.^^^

However, now I must ask you to edit the remainder of that so that your words are not mixed with mine making my message seem convoluted & incomprehensible.

I refuse, at this time, to labor through that post trying to figure out what got mixed up. I don't need anything more than the quotes to be separated such that they are not mixed up like they currently are.

Sorry... just the way it is.

Promise, I will as soon as I'm home (next week). My post really is awful and hurts my own eyes!!

 

[Betterhaff]

Sorry MJ, but line breeding is not the same as inbreeding and a line bred variety is even less the same as an inbred variety. Line breeding is broader/larger and usually done with many individuals and/or with less related individuals where inbreeding involves either very few specimens or tightly related ones.

Line breeding is inbreeding. The relationship of the plants mated determines to what degree.

 

[Only Ornamental]

I thought it was a good convo until it got derailed by all this breeding discussion which is completely off topic from the thread title.

just sayin

You're right but the first post isn't just about the title but about the question posed: for that, understanding the concept is helpful. Knowing the correct terminology or nomenclature is fine but doesn't help much if the information provided for example in a 'strain description' isn't sufficiently correct and/or complete . But Asterix could chime in and complain... it's his/her thread.

 

[Only Ornamental]

Please define what YOU mean when you say IBL... InBreed Line.

This is clearly where the confusion lies. Until there is a solid, agreed upon definition, these discussions will continue in a big assed loop-d-loop.

Right, we will/would... Definition is already given: IBL in cannabis doesn't exist but is used (whether honestly or for advertisement, I don't know) to indicate rather stable lines (aka 'strains') often grown for several generations if not for many years without crossing to another 'strain'. But what breeders or seed banks say... You know at what I'm getting at, right?

 

[Only Ornamental]

I'm sorry, OO, if you are offended but I've yet to see anybody else admit to intentionally misleading a discussion. You did and it's in the record now.
The comment affects your credibility, nothing more.

I mean... you stuck your own foot in your mouth.

C'mon... cut me some slack! Nitpicking is nice but like that? It's done, it hasn't hurt nor truly misled someone (because not entirely wrong, just not 100% correct), it's been revised (3 times?), now let's move on and keep roughly to the topic.

 

[pastor]

I've got a question about the meaning of the word "inbred" 'coz english isn't my mother tongue. Maybe someone could help me.

In the book "breed your own vegetable varieties" by Carol Deppe, she calls inbreeders plants that are autogamous (like tomatoes, peas, beans...) and outbreeders the allogamous plants (like brassicas, hemp...).

so, can i say that "inbred" = "self pollinated" ?

 

[MJPassion]

^
Maybe wait till he comes back from vacationland with poor internet.

Hehehe...
I have a poor connection & I'm working off my lame phone.
But hey... It's what I've got & I make it work. My posts are legible, save for a spelling error here n there.

 

[MJPassion]

I've got a question about the meaning of the word "inbred" 'coz english isn't my mother tongue. Maybe someone could help me.

In the book "breed your own vegetable varieties" by Carol Deppe, she calls inbreeders plants that are autogamous (like tomatoes, peas, beans...) and outbreeders the allogamous plants (like brassicas, hemp...).

so, can i say that "inbreed" = "self pollinated" ?

That would be correct.

I think I laid it out the basics in post 48 fairly well. All are examples of breeding within a line.. line breeding... ie., the end result being an inbreed line or IBL...

 

[MJPassion]

So I went a got a couple references...

IBL: inbred line
Inbreeding:the process of breeding soley within a seed lot with no external pollen inputs.

IBL: Abreviation for In Bred Line and refers to a strain that is stable for the vast majority of its traits and will breed true in the offspring.

Inbreeding: to breed by the continues mating of closely related induvuduals, especially to preserve desirable traits in a stock. To breed or develop within; engender.

I was mistaken about Ed Rosenthals book. He does not discuss breeding in his book I mentiined previously.

 

[MJPassion]

C'mon... cut me some slack! Nitpicking is nice but like that? It's done, it hasn't hurt nor truly misled someone (because not entirely wrong, just not 100% correct), it's been revised (3 times?), now let's move on and keep roughly to the topic.

I'm not so sure you understand the concept of 'wrong' when it comes to presenting information in the public.

I think Adolf Hitler knew the concept well when he said something like:
Tell a big lie mixed with known truth and your story becomes believable.

That's not ecactly what he said but close.

One false part of a comment makes the entire comment false. It is true with math as it is with law.

Truth that's tainted is no longer true even in the slightest.

By the way... you asked me to bust your balls so why ya gonna whine about it when it happens?

 

[pastor]

thank you for your answer MJPassion, but there's still a few things i don't understand.

according to your post #48, "inbred" can have several meanings: selfed, backcrossed, both, 1:1 sibling mating or open pollinated generational breeding.
so, inbred lines aka IBL can be made by any of these processes?

according to Jorge Cervantes, "Inbreeding: the process of breeding solely within a seeds lot with no external pollen inputs."
this can be applied to what i call a "population", but a "population" is not an IBL... this definition can be also applied to landrace ( sucessive open pollinations of the same batch in the same place).

in the well known "inheritence of chemical phenotype in Cannabis sativa L." by de Meijer et al., they use the word "inbred" to talk about "selfed" plants.

according to Carol Deppe, hemp is primarily outbreeder (allogamous)... so hemp naturally "outbreed". So, what is "inbred hemp" if not "self pollinated hemp"???

the word "inbred" means "self pollinated" or not? someone can answer me?

there's something i misunderstand...

 

[Betterhaff]

A way to look at inbreeding...if it's not an outcross then it's inbreeding. Kind of a general statement but it encompasses the whole, think about it.

 

[MJPassion]

Selfing is the most extreme form of inbreeding.

Far as I know only some plants & very few animals are capable of selfing. Actually, more plants than I originaly thought are capable and rely on selfing for survival.

 

[MJPassion]

Let me try again...

Selfing IS inbreeding.
It is NOT the only methid if inbreeding.

If you're in the States... think about some of the small town jokes about bros n siss n cousins n aunts n moms n uncles n dads all having a big assed orgy... that's inbreeding... kind of an extreme example but if you see ehat I'm attempting to communicate it's all good.
BTW... I'm from one of those small towns... lol