breeding for terpenes

[Sam_Skunkman]

I understand where you're coming from. This is actually fairly interesting. Here's a thesis written by a guy with access to GW Pharma.
He identifies the ability to procure CBC and/or CBG rich concentrates via bubble bags by filtering out the larger heads and capturing the 25 micron from plants in early veg. They did this test with 178 plants from a 'variety of sources' and found that CBC was the most prominent in 4.5% and second most prominent in 78%. I guess that makes me wrong then, maybe it's CBG that's easier to procure. Not long after this discovery GW Pharma patented this process for procuring CBC including further purification.

http://www.google.com/patents/US20110098348

http://www.scribd.com/doc/214031988...of-Cannabis-Sativa-l-as-a-Phytopharmaceutical

(The Patent is by E.P.M. deMeijer from GW, the PHD thesis is from David Potter at GW. I have original copies of both, the thesis is hard bound.)
And this:
Euphytica (2009) 165:293–311
The inheritance of chemical phenotype in Cannabis sativa L. (III): variation in cannabichromene proportion.
E. P. M. de Meijer · K. M. Hammond ·
M. Micheler

-SamS

 

[in vivo]

The breeding certainly takes it to the next level, I appreciate you breaking it down. I was just attempting to point out that it might be possible to extract CBC from a plant that has been identified as having a large number sessile trichomes in veg. It makes total sense that for practical purposes it's significantly more involved. Some of what you said was over my head, so I'm going to have to do some reading.

I would really love to get my hands on the omitted section on nutrients from Potter's paper. Any way that's possible?

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

The breeding certainly takes it to the next level, I appreciate you breaking it down. I was just attempting to point out that it might be possible to extract CBC from a plant that has been identified as having a large number sessile trichomes in veg. It makes total sense that for practical purposes it's significantly more involved. Some of what you said was over my head, so I'm going to have to do some reading.

I would really love to get my hands on the omitted section on nutrients from Potter's paper. Any way that's possible?

How many pages are you talking about?
-SamS

 

[Dropped Cat]

By any chance did you show the plant to a friend that was a chef just before it smelled like pepper?

Does it still smell a bit of pepper? Get it analyzed and then and see what the terpenes are? How long did the pepper smell plant flower? Were they different in size? The plants grown in soil?
-SamS

Pepper smell of this thunk I grow is a distant memory.

Not to be repeated in soil or coco. Perhaps the re veg
cut off the pepper in bloom. This is the only cultivar to
exhibit the smell difference after re veg.

Although the plant in veg is one skunky smelly girl.

The original plant from seed reeked of black pepper
once the glands started in earnest. Stayed till chop,
and receded after 30 days in the jar, a minor note.
This thunk I grow is best described as smelling like an
antique shop, all polished wood and leather and pleasant
musk.

Still a wonderful plant, one of my favorites. And the current
cured product is equal in scent notes of the original.

I also have a vapo rub type plant, a result of one
of the crosses I did with your thunk, oddly enough.

I like the sharp singular scents too.

A cherry candy broadleaf mix is one I have been enjoying
lately. A cross from an old bagseed and nycd x sensi star.

That bagseed is from 1979, lol, pine with light camphor, but
I suspect the cherry is from the nycd.

I have no plans to test for terpenes, unless there is a
easy, economical way to do so in the privacy of my
padded cell.

Can a terpene be present and not be sniff-able?

 

[in vivo]

I'm not sure exactly, after going back through it to find the comment (pg 102 bottom of first paragraph in online version):

Growth media had to be developed that supported good root development, and fertilizer regimes had to be devised to give the correct balance of nutrients at the appropriate time in the plants’ development. As the results of these studies are also of interest to illicit cannabis growers, this aspect of the research cannot be included in this thesis.

What's funny is that at the beginning of the paragraph they mention getting insight from another company. For all I know they did all the heavy lifting.

I've just never seen another paper as full of quantifiable data in regards to growing cannabis. If there are others out there I'd like to read them all.

 

[harry74]

My breeding for terpenes sistem cost 0 DIY

My breeding for terpenes sistem cost 0 DIY

AS this thread is about terpenes I have decided to document here the sistem I´m using to have a better look at the males.
The great advantage of this method is that is very cheap, everyone who keeps a male can try it at home. DIY.


What we know about terpenes basically is that are highly volatile so the basic idea of this method is to keep them enclosed.
I use for this what I call TCB or Terpene Catching Box.
I will explain this with pics....

 

[harry74]

TCB 1 Test

TCB 1 Test


Last year I found this BB male I´m working with....
I left it with the females 12/12 like 10 days, untill first flowers where clearly forming.
I did cut the flowering tops and put them in 2 pots with wáter and honey inside the Box with some support lighting keeping the 12/12 photoperiod.
The Box stays open 12 hours and then I close it for the dark period; I put also a cloth to avoid light leaks.

What happens is that as the box is closed during the dark period, the terpenes are enclosed there.
When the light on period starts ,as son as we open the box, we need to put our nose/head down there and sniff/snuff if you want. The days when the male is in full flower ( releasing most pollen), are the days with more terpene concentration.

This way I discovered that my BB male smells beautifully to sweet tropical mango and to be honest, my starting idea was to gather some pollen.

 

[harry74]

The weak point, as seen , how they ended up the flower tops branches, with mould on the water

 

[harry74]

TCB 2.0

TCB 2.0



So this is the 2.0 versión. I´m testing this male BD X BB but this time one clone in 1l pot. It is 12/12 with my flowering plants, but as soon as starts developing flowers.......

 

[harry74]

I will fit the PGP ( Pollen Gathering Plataform) made of quality cardboard&foil and the sistem will be the same.

OK guys...¿ What you reckon?

Feedback, comments and hilarious bashing wellcome.

 

[harry74]

LEGAL WARNING

LEGAL WARNING

TCB ( Terpene Catching Box) and PGP ( Pollen Gathering Plataform) are registered trademarks& products.


You CAN´T do this at home unless you pay a licence of 100$ to get my written permission.

Anyone Breaking the LAW will be fuckin prosecuted I promise.

Kisses

 

[G.O. Joe]

Was the THCA 100% pure?

Of course it wasn't, but the very light tan powder acid/base extract should have had very little non-acid content. Notwithstanding extraction irregularities between different cannabinoids in different solvents, it likely had whatever cannabinoid profile that strain has, presumably a little CBNA, and little else. TLC will be done next time, but I was still talking about just the terpene part of this entourage.

My NL5xHaze (Sensi's) comes up again, because it also has a pepper note under the fruit/flower. But pepper oil has many familiar components - phellandrene, pinene, limonene, myrcene, linalool. It sure would be nice of these labs doing testing out west (and asking for strain names) to tell the strain profiles they've been collecting.

I grow some NL5xSkunk F1's sometimes since I have the seeds, every plant smells different, to way different, off the wall - imagine hot burning vinyl. I don't get this so much with other F1's. None of my Sour Bubble hybrids are sour one bit, and all of BOG's sours are sour. The F2's should be interesting.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

What I meant was, is it only THC, nothing else? If you smoke it it does not matter if it is THC or THCA, when smoked they are the same. What about any terpenes did it have any smell or taste? Pure THC has zero taste or smell. As well as it maybe had other Cannabinoids like CBD, CBN, or THCV that do effect the THC effects.
Find pure THC.
-SamS

Of course it wasn't, but the very light tan powder acid/base extract should have had very little non-acid content. Notwithstanding extraction irregularities between different cannabinoids in different solvents, it likely had whatever cannabinoid profile that strain has, presumably a little CBNA, and little else. TLC will be done next time, but I was still talking about just the terpene part of this entourage.

My NL5xHaze (Sensi's) comes up again, because it also has a pepper note under the fruit/flower. But pepper oil has many familiar components - phellandrene, pinene, limonene, myrcene, linalool. It sure would be nice of these labs doing testing out west (and asking for strain names) to tell the strain profiles they've been collecting.

LOOK AT SC LABS, THEY POST ANALYSIS ON THEIR WWW SITE.
-SamS

I grow some NL5xSkunk F1's sometimes since I have the seeds, every plant smells different, to way different, off the wall - imagine hot burning vinyl. I don't get this so much with other F1's. None of my Sour Bubble hybrids are sour one bit, and all of BOG's sours are sour. The F2's should be interesting.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Funny,
I have been using these methods for more then 50 years and if you do not stop telling others my secrets I will take you to court.
Methods like these can not be shared with amateur growers and breeders, it is just way too much power in their feeble hands. For releasing secrets like these I think Harry should be banned from the forum, anyone else agree?
-pissed off SamS

AS this thread is about terpenes I have decided to document here the sistem I´m using to have a better look at the males.
The great advantage of this method is that is very cheap, everyone who keeps a male can try it at home. DIY.


What we know about terpenes basically is that are highly volatile so the basic idea of this method is to keep them enclosed.
I use for this what I call TCB or Terpene Catching Box.
I will explain this with pics....

 

[harry74]

Hey Sam:

I´ll consider your post as hilarious bashing.

I´ve got no doubts you have been using this method the last 100 years, but I don´t think you have shared it with the community the way I´m doing.
Even more, you have been keeping it for yourself while telling others to reverse males with etrepornoform or whatever is called that shit.

I don´t know how much it cost to have the terpene profile analyzed in a lab....

I know it´s not rocket science but it is a cheap solutions for hobby growers like me.Even for pros....

Let´s say you want to select from several males of the same strain. You can take a cutting from each one and place them in boxes under the same light.
The only problema you have to be there to open and close the boxes.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Hey Sam:

I´ll consider your post as hilarious bashing.
CORRECT.

I´ve got no doubts you have been using this method the last 100 years, but I don´t think you have shared it with the community the way I´m doing.

CORRECT I ONLY SHARE THINGS I WANT TO SHARE IF OTHERS WILL FIND USEFUL. I DO NOT USE IT.

Even more, you have been keeping it for yourself while telling others to reverse males with etrepornoform or whatever is called that shit.

BECAUSE WITH ETHEPHON YOU GET FULL EXPRESSION OF FEMALE ON A MALE CLONE AND THAT MAKES IT REAL EASY TO SEE WHAT YOU MIGHT BE CONTRIBUTING TO A NEW HYBRID WHEN YOU USE THAT MALE CLONE. REAL REAL EASY.
ETHEPHON BREAKS DOWN PRETTY FAST TO JUST ETHYLENE GAS WHICH IS WHAT BANANAS GIVE OFF AND MANY PEOPLE USE RIPENING BANANAS STUCK IN A PAPER BAG WITH OTHER UNRIPE FRUIT TO RIPEN THEM. HARMLESS.....

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=99597&highlight=TRANSFORMING+MALE+FEMALE

I don´t know how much it cost to have the terpene profile analyzed in a lab....

LOOK AT THE WERK SHOP PASADENA CA.... THEY TEST FOR 35 TERPENES.

I know it´s not rocket science but it is a cheap solutions for hobby growers like me.Even for pros....

NO PROBLEM IF YOU BELIEVE THIS.

Let´s say you want to select from several males of the same strain. You can take a cutting from each one and place them in boxes under the same light.
The only problema you have to be there to open and close the boxes.

THAT IS NOT THE ONLY PROBLEM, AS YOU STILL HAVE NO WAY TO DETERMINE THE TERPENES, BUT I GUESS YOU COULD TRY, BUT ANYWAY THANKS FOR SHARING....
-SAMS

 

[harry74]

It is true, you have no way to determine the terpenes but you can have some first impressions and if you want to know more, test it in a lab.

Anyway, thanks for throwing a pinch of salt with your post.

 

[harry74]

some toughts about terpenes

some toughts about terpenes

Well, I´m testing 4 crosses I´ve made with a Blueberry male.

You can check my albums for pics.

One of the crosses Lavender X BB is nearly done, 60 days 12/12
today. Untill know #2 and #3 were smelling kind of sweet/floral with a hint of Berry.
#1 had a more lemony/citric scent.

As I was trimming leaves from #3, I have realized that the smell has changed to kind of Toxic/vomit/acrid/fetid...

I´ve got a clone of Kushberry ( OG Kush X BB ) that follows the same pattern more or less.
Smell citric/grapefruit acid most of the flowering and at the end changes to a more toxic,chemical smell.

My question:

¿ Could be that certain terpenes are produced always at the end of the flowering period?
If this is not the case what is the reason behind this changes of smell/ aroma?

Any experience like this with other strains?

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Well, I´m testing 4 crosses I´ve made with a Blueberry male.

You can check my albums for pics.

One of the crosses Lavender X BB is nearly done, 60 days 12/12
today. Untill know #2 and #3 were smelling kind of sweet/floral with a hint of Berry.
#1 had a more lemony/citric scent.

As I was trimming leaves from #3, I have realized that the smell has changed to kind of Toxic/vomit/acrid/fetid...

I´ve got a clone of Kushberry ( OG Kush X BB ) that follows the same pattern more or less.
Smell citric/grapefruit acid most of the flowering and at the end changes to a more toxic,chemical smell.

My question:

¿ Could be that certain terpenes are produced always at the end of the flowering period?
If this is not the case what is the reason behind this changes of smell/ aroma?

Any experience like this with other strains?

IT COULD BE PRODUCTION OF DIFFERENT TERPENES LATE IN FLOWERING, OR IT COULD BE THE MORE VOLATILE TERPENES HAVE MOSTLY VAPORIZED AND LEFT THE MORE PERSISTENT TERPENES BEHIND THEREFORE ALTERING THE SMELL.
I SMELLED LOTS OF PLANTS WITH Toxic/vomit/acrid/fetid SMELLS, SOME AFTER DRYING WERE BETTER, OR WORSE. I DID NOT KEEP MANY IF ANY OF THEM.
-SamS

 

[harry74]

Thanks Sam; I have allready put away the clones of #2 and #3, may be I¨ll grow #1 outdoors.

It is true that this kind of smells often comes from afghan genetics??

I have seen some posts commenting that the smell of RKS was coming from the Afghan side of things, I don´t know if this is accurate.

Cheers