Tutorial Organics for Beginners

[bigshrimp]

redclover - What is your water source and quality?

 

[Highsenburg831]

This isn't one of those just do the math type scenarios...you really need to know what the pH is to start with when working with such large quantities of soil.

However:

If you are using 1 cup per cubic foot:

1 Cubic Foot = 6.42851159 Gallons (dry)

3,000 gal / 6.43 gal = 466.56 cu ft.

1 cup of limestone is .73 pounds

466.56 cups x 0.73 lbs = 340.59 lbs of lime

-------

It should be noted - the 1 cup per cu. ft. is a ratio used for peat based mediums.

I would not just amend "soil" with that much limestone WITHOUT getting a proper soil test and getting an accurate figure of how much lime you need to balance the pH of your soil.

Lime should not be considered the primary supplier of Ca or Mg - it's primary purpose is pH adjustment.

Without actually knowing the current pH of your soil - or if in fact you are actually using soil, ie DIRT, or a peat based medium, or purchased bagged soil, etc. Some peat mixes like pro-mix are already limed for proper pH balance as are most designer bagged soils, which are more often than not, mixed media and not simply "soil".

- HOWEVER - if you are working with a base peat moss and EWC combo that has nothing else in it at all...and you are not using a single soil bed, but splitting this mix into multiple large planters or smaller separate beds - you should be fine with the math at the top.



dank.Frank

Thanks for the info regarding adding dolomite lime to mixes.
I have been running a version of the moonshine mix:
One bag ffof, one bag fflw, one bag ff planting mix, one cup of fruit and flower, two gallons of perlite
In my next go round I am going to add one cup quick start
I use RO water and add 3ml/5gal of CaliMagic
Then I have to add about a third of ml of AN up to get the pH to 6.5

I am wondering if I could add a cup of dolomite lime to my mix and quit phing my water?

 

[dank.frank]

@ Highsen - the soil mixes made by fox farm already have lime in them for proper pH balance.

If you are using RO water - it should basically be pH neutral to begin with. I'm gathering the addition "CaliMagic" is causing the drop in pH?

Have you tried letting the soil mix buffer the pH already and it was unsuccessful? Or have you just been adjusting pH the entire time?

I'd suggest looking at this issue a bit differently; not as a how do I control pH - but rather how do I provide enough Ca/Mg so that I no longer need to supplement it. By doing this you eliminate the need to pH the water in the first place...



dank.Frank

 

[redclover]

Here are some examples before the potential fade. This is what I've been getting up until week 6-7.




By week 8-9 (on 10 week strains) most of the fans have fallen off. Calyxes haven't been swollen like usual.


I use tap water @ 8.2 PH 400-500 ppm. No chlorine/chloramine.

 

[dank.frank]

looks like N and P deficiency to me...or else you wouldn't see the neon yellow in the leaves and the purple in the veins and petioles - just look underfed.



dank.Frank

 

[redclover]

looks like N and P deficiency to me...or else you wouldn't be the neon yellow in the leaves and the purple in the veins and petioles - just look underfed.



dank.Frank

This is what confuses me. Soil is 'cooked' with 1 cup fish bone and calphos, top dressed with 2T FB, and it's 12/12 from seed. Same with N...plenty. Can it be something else? I figure with all the life in my moist soil, with an occasional AACT, there shouldn't be any deficiencies with the generous amounts of amendments in my mix and top dressing.

 

[dank.frank]

Well, look at the plant - it doesn't tell lies...

How much soil are you mixing at a time? How big is the container they are in currently?

What is "2T FB"? Why if you compost your soil would you even bother with top dressing anything? Why do you not just include those additional amounts in your soil mix and allow it to be composted properly into the medium?



dank.Frank

 

[bigshrimp]

I think you just have a case of hardwater, a good chunk of those dissolved solids is likely lime. With the addition of all those liming or calcium heavy ammendents ( Fish bone, calphos, crab shell, potash, crushed dolo) - your a bit overlimed.

Watch the calcium imputs and try and collect some rainwater.

 

[redclover]

Well, look at the plant - it doesn't tell lies...

How much soil are you mixing at a time? How big is the container they are in currently?




dank.Frank

I thoroughly mix 3 cu ft at a time. 12/12 from seed, so my 5 gal pots are plenty. T is tablespoon when talking 'cooking'...pun intended. FB is fish bone. I like to top dress EWC, crab shell, neem, kelp, etc for the final stretch, health, and prevention. I'm going to look into soil testing.

I think you just have a case of hardwater, a good chunk of those dissolved solids is likely lime. With the addition of all those liming or calcium heavy ammendents ( Fish bone, calphos, crab shell, potash, crushed dolo) - your a bit overlimed.

Watch the calcium imputs and try and collect some rainwater.

THIS!!! I completely overlooked the hard water. Thought the third peat and EWC would balance this out. Should I actually PH water?! Just use RO water? Great stuff y'all!

Lime mix per cu ft:
1 cup dolo (just want to get rid of the rest)
1 cup gypsum
1 cup oyster shell
Plus all the Ca heaviness as you mentioned. What do you recommend?

 

[Reevage]

Great info man. Thanks!!

 

[Highsenburg831]

@ Highsen - the soil mixes made by fox farm already have lime in them for proper pH balance.

If you are using RO water - it should basically be pH neutral to begin with. I'm gathering the addition "CaliMagic" is causing the drop in pH?

Have you tried letting the soil mix buffer the pH already and it was unsuccessful? Or have you just been adjusting pH the entire time?

I'd suggest looking at this issue a bit differently; not as a how do I control pH - but rather how do I provide enough Ca/Mg so that I no longer need to supplement it. By doing this you eliminate the need to pH the water in the first place...



dank.Frank

You are correct that the water is neutral and the calmag drops the pH. And you went right into my next question... What can I add to my mix so I don't have to calmag my RO?

Thanks!

 

[dank.frank]

@ Highsen -

But have you just tried letting the soil buffer the pH as it is - without adding anything else to the equation?

a. I'd look to add 1/4c of gypsum and 2 tbsp of Sul-Po-Mg per cu ft. - again, assuming that Fox Farm is using dolomite limestone to balance their pH already.

b. If you don't already have pH that is self-regulating using that mix, then I'd go with 1/3c dolomite, 1/3c gypsum, and 2/3c oyster shell flour per cu ft...but I typically use this mix for mediums that utilize peat moss and don't already have a large amount of "liming" materials in the mix....

I'd go with option a. to start and see if that doesn't fix your Ca/Mg issue. If you are having pH problems with your soil mix - then I'd just go with option b.


@ redclover - I'm going to stick with my previous statements / suggestions. Your plants are not getting enough nutrition...take it as you will. If you have too much Ca you can lock out Mg and K...and too much free Ca can form bonds with P, forming insoluable compounds (calcium phosphate) thus resulting in a lack of P availability as well. This scenario fits, as BigShrimp pointed out. You need to restore the Ca/Mg balance - not just reduce your hard water input - although that will certainly help. (and could be the straw on the camels back for that matter)

I always recommend people use RO water simply because it eliminates the possibilities of varience from an input. Makes it easier to diagnose problems when you know immediately that poor water quality is not a factor of consideration.



dank.Frank

 

[bigshrimp]

For this crop there isn't too much you can do. Get better water.

If you want to depart from a strict LOS paradigm there are a couple of things i could suggest. Still organic.

Citric acid injection for one, low molecular weight organic acids may have the ability to solubilize P in soil. Plants use a range of these acids to modify rhizosphere ph, solubilize minerals and regulate soil ecosystem dynamics(?). Fun fact, most plants ability to grow in calcareous soils is limited by its ability to produce these acids. Using these acids will interfere with soil ecosystem dynamics to an unknown extent.

Low levels of soluble K in flower have helped me quite a bit. I feed them a tablespoon of molasses with 2-3 ml of strong kelp FPE / 5 gallons of (Ph'd) water as needed. The molasses has some Mag and trace also.

Next reamend cut it with some unlimed peat, ewc, aeration, and watch the animal based amendments. Bone and shell meals are loaded with calcium carbonate.

Long term it's best to just increase water quality. I'm collecting lots of rainwater at this point. RO for me will be a last resort. I'm considering some lower tech options like a peat or zeolite filter...

 

[redclover]

For this crop there isn't too much you can do. Get better water.

If you want to depart from a strict LOS paradigm there are a couple of things i could suggest. Still organic.

Citric acid injection for one, low molecular weight organic acids may have the ability to solubilize P in soil. Plants use a range of these acids to modify rhizosphere ph, solubilize minerals and regulate soil ecosystem dynamics(?). Fun fact, most plants ability to grow in calcareous soils is limited by its ability to produce these acids. Using these acids will interfere with soil ecosystem dynamics to an unknown extent.

Low levels of soluble K in flower have helped me quite a bit. I feed them a tablespoon of molasses with 2-3 ml of strong kelp FPE / 5 gallons of (Ph'd) water as needed. The molasses has some Mag and trace also.

Next reamend cut it with some unlimed peat, ewc, aeration, and watch the animal based amendments. Bone and shell meals are loaded with calcium carbonate.

Long term it's best to just increase water quality. I'm collecting lots of rainwater at this point. RO for me will be a last resort. I'm considering some lower tech options like a peat or zeolite filter...

I do have Earth Juice PH down that I don't use. It's citric acid, and only takes a 1/4 tsp/gal to get my water around 7.

I just cut mix in half with peat and EWC.

What options are there for P besides calphos, fish bone, crab shell, or guano?

Thanks!

 

[xmobotx]

redclover you want to be careful about continuing to add more amendments ~like w/ your water pH issue, it isn't the plan to adjust the water {you're still adding all that precipitate that's in your water that way} it's the plan to source water w/o the precipitate {distilled, RO, rain}

also, top-dressed amendments may not alter your soil's profile in time for the existing crop & then just creates imbalance for the next one if you;re re-using your soil.

more-over, it may be good to find out the problem before applying the solution. A soil test may be in order if you choose to re-use this mix {logan labs is good & the paste test will give you more info ~which also costs a little more}

see DF's post 4432; notice how many P amendments also offer Ca? there's a connection there

 

[redclover]

You guys have all been very helpful! Great thread and community. I'll get an RO unit and a good soil test kit.

 

[h.h.]

I guess I'm just a cheap ass, or maybe I don't want to deal with 2 gallons an hour of water flow, but I'd just leave out the dolomite next time if it's creating problems.

 

[Microbeman]

I'd wonder if Mehlich-3 is accurate.

 

[rasputin]

I would generally avoid adding dolomite lime to soil, new or reused, unless you know your soil has a severe magnesium deficiency or if the soil contains sufficient calcium already that the addition of dolomite lime will not severely lower the Ca:Mg ratio.

Dolomite lime has a 2:1 Ca/Mg ratio. A ratio of 7:1 or 10:1 is recommended for soil.

 

[redclover]

I don't think I'll be reusing this mix. By the sound things, my Ca is off the charts. I even have crushed roasted eggshells and dolo in my EWC for grit. DF mentioned the problems that excess Ca can bring, on top of my hard water.

This current run will be RO from now on.