As far as I can tell dolomite has become taboo from the hi-brix crowd. Loads of misinformation, even in published works. I was surprised to see how easily it is leached out of soil.
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What to use for Organic PH up?
- Thread starter Redbuddz
- Start date
As far as I can tell dolomite has become taboo from the hi-brix crowd. Loads of misinformation, even in published works. I was surprised to see how easily it is leached out of soil.
captinahab
Member
I cant say as they are not my words. They are from my notes. But i think what he was getting at is comercial growers could use it 100 percent ratio of dolime lime for c.c. if it workeded....they would use it as a cost save .... since its in such abundance. But the fact they dont use it alone shows its not a cure all. It was just a way to show you how little it is used in comercial growing in general. Its regemented as a c.c. bundle with others stuff mainly in long term potting applications.
I know i wont be adding dolomite lime to give magnesum anytime soon. Far better stuff like epsom salt or sul-po-mag fast acting agents for visible diffecincies.
That and the fact its not water soliuable... so when its wet im right.. but when its dry the balance is thrown off. I dont want to put anything in the soil that changes the balance between cal and mag diffrently depending on moisture. Screws with my cation exchange.
One2lurk, you're right. Humic acid has a very low ph. Too much info in at one time for me I suppose or it's that weed I'm smoking! lol. I'm going to make some small changes to my nutrient mix regimen and hopefully that will help my issue. I'll start with the use of an air stone. Seems easy,cheap and certainly cant hurt. I'm going to start monitoring the PPM's of my nutrient mix and I will try to make adjustments based on those numbers. It would be great if I did not have to use any PH up at all but If I do still have to use I want to use the best choice. I'll stick with the chemical up cause the organic up's seem sketchy. I did find that there are a few variations of chemical PH up. So which one should I choose? I'm using Botanicare nutrients and there up is Potassium Hydroxide. I've seen others that are Potassium Carbonate and Potassium BiCarbonate. Does anyone have an opinion on those three?
Thanks for everyone's help
Redbuddz
Thanks for everyone's help
Redbuddz
KOH will add the least potassium of the three.
I see, ah hum. Heh, one of you says it's insoluble, the other says it leaches easily. Well nothing can be soluble in water that isn't there when the soil is dry so don't worry about that, and if it's there then it will be acid and in contact with the lime. You can add powder for fast action, or granular for longer, or both. The more magnesium in dolomite, the slower it reacts with acids, but dolomitic limestone is rarely pure dolomite, but even then a powder will buffer easily.
I see, ah hum. Heh, one of you says it's insoluble, the other says it leaches easily. Well nothing can be soluble in water that isn't there when the soil is dry so don't worry about that, and if it's there then it will be acid and in contact with the lime. You can add powder for fast action, or granular for longer, or both. The more magnesium in dolomite, the slower it reacts with acids, but dolomitic limestone is rarely pure dolomite, but even then a powder will buffer easily.
I flower in 5 gallon buckets, 2/3 Happy Frog, 1/3 perlite. I start with RO water and add food grade DE, Dolomite Lime and Jack's Classic All Purpose. Let the mixture sit for 24 hours and everything dissolves nicely. The Dolomite lime raises ph from below 6 to 6.5 and replaces some of what the RO filtration removes. Really cheap and easy and the plants love it. I use this mixture from the time cuttings start to develop roots through harvest except for the first week or so of 12/12 I switch the Jacks's AP for Jack's Blossom Booster.
I'm hand watering 7 plants per flower run. What I'm doing may not scale well but it sure does the trick for me.
I'm hand watering 7 plants per flower run. What I'm doing may not scale well but it sure does the trick for me.
captinahab
Member
Letting you mix sit for anytime is a wise choice. I bubble for 3 days minimum. Basicaly i water every 3 days... so as soon as im done watering... i fill my containers for the next water.. by the time the next water comes around.. i repeat. My water jugs are always full.
Dolomite lime does not disolve. It is rock... crushed tiny rock... you may not see it in the water because its fine dust like powder but its there. Kinda like sand doesnt disolve in water...... it does however leach out of the soil. Which means it washes out when you water... cause its fine dust like powder.
The dolomite lime goes in as a fine gravel. After 24 hours there is only a cloudy precipitate left when I agitate the solution. Some does settle out but enough obviously absorbs to shift ph and provide calcium and magnesium. It's really not like sand at all, much more like the diatomaceous earth. I never suggested any of this was 100% efficient - just that it was cheap and worked. I thought the concept might be extrapolated into a solution to the OP's quest for an organic way to raise ph for pennies per watering.
captinahab
Member
Your 100% right... its super cheap, it works to adjust the pm, and its organic. Im glad it works for you... and it may work well for him. I still wont put it in my organic soil.... just personal choice no big deal 
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My $0.02, effectiveness of liming agents are primarily based on two factors--neutralizing capacities (Calcium Carbonate Equivalent--CCE) and the fineness of which it is ground. The best practice is to add liming agents to moistened grow medium mix a few weeks before using it...but if you are trying to increase the PH of your grow medium already in a container, that is a different story.
The attached pdf file titled, Managing the pH of container media--from Univ of New Hampshire--published a technique I employed years ago to save a batch of grow medium with a PH that barely registered 6 already in containers (plants were locked up). The flowable lime technique worked for me and everyone went to harvest without further PH issues.
5. Correcting low medium-pH
"Consider soil drenches with either flowable lime or potassium
bicarbonate. Both materials are incompatible with all types of
water-soluble fertilizer and other chemicals, and need to be
applied by themselves as a soil drench. Other options (hydrated
lime or potassium hydroxide) have specialist uses but are less
reliable and predictable as a corrective liming material.
Several factors affect the choice between flowable lime versus
potassium bicarbonate. Flowable lime has the more predictable
and stable effect on medium-pH, without increasing medium-EC.
Potassium bicarbonate is more soluble and should be used on
flood floors or when applied through low-volume drippers. Both
liming materials are fast-acting and show most of their effect on
medium-pH within one day. Following a drench, you can
reapply after five days if pH is not up to the optimum range.
To minimize phytotoxicity from flowable lime or potassium
bicarbonate, apply in cool weather so the material does not dry
quickly on foliage; avoid splashing of foliage during application;
immediately rinse foliage with a fine spray; and apply with
generous leaching to maximize the effect at low concentration.
Tips for applying flowable lime:
• Apply at 4 qts./100 gallons (10 mL/Liter = 1:100).
• An injector can be used to dilute the solution, but the lime
particles can be very abrasive. Immediately clean equipment
after application.
• Do not apply through drippers or on flood floors because it will
clog equipment and leave residue.
Tips for applying potassium bicarbonate:
• Apply at 2 lbs./100 gals (2.4 grams/Liter).
• Can be delivered through emitters or on flood floors.
• One day after application, apply a basic fertilizer (e.g. 13-2-13)
with moderate leaching to wash out salts and to reestablish
nutrient balance.
• It is likely that repeat applications may be needed."
Me? I use an assortment of liming agents with various CCE #s...including--dolomitic limestone (CCE 100), calcitic limestone (CCE 100), oyster shell powder (CCE 75), wood ash (CCE 80--right from my fire place), and hydrated lime (CCE 136). Although the PH for Fossil Shell Flour is around 8, it does not seem to impact the soil's PH, so I do not consider the 3-6% of FSF I add as a liming agent. Caveat--not all of my liming agents are "organic" but work perfectly for me.
Cheers!
The attached pdf file titled, Managing the pH of container media--from Univ of New Hampshire--published a technique I employed years ago to save a batch of grow medium with a PH that barely registered 6 already in containers (plants were locked up). The flowable lime technique worked for me and everyone went to harvest without further PH issues.
5. Correcting low medium-pH
"Consider soil drenches with either flowable lime or potassium
bicarbonate. Both materials are incompatible with all types of
water-soluble fertilizer and other chemicals, and need to be
applied by themselves as a soil drench. Other options (hydrated
lime or potassium hydroxide) have specialist uses but are less
reliable and predictable as a corrective liming material.
Several factors affect the choice between flowable lime versus
potassium bicarbonate. Flowable lime has the more predictable
and stable effect on medium-pH, without increasing medium-EC.
Potassium bicarbonate is more soluble and should be used on
flood floors or when applied through low-volume drippers. Both
liming materials are fast-acting and show most of their effect on
medium-pH within one day. Following a drench, you can
reapply after five days if pH is not up to the optimum range.
To minimize phytotoxicity from flowable lime or potassium
bicarbonate, apply in cool weather so the material does not dry
quickly on foliage; avoid splashing of foliage during application;
immediately rinse foliage with a fine spray; and apply with
generous leaching to maximize the effect at low concentration.
Tips for applying flowable lime:
• Apply at 4 qts./100 gallons (10 mL/Liter = 1:100).
• An injector can be used to dilute the solution, but the lime
particles can be very abrasive. Immediately clean equipment
after application.
• Do not apply through drippers or on flood floors because it will
clog equipment and leave residue.
Tips for applying potassium bicarbonate:
• Apply at 2 lbs./100 gals (2.4 grams/Liter).
• Can be delivered through emitters or on flood floors.
• One day after application, apply a basic fertilizer (e.g. 13-2-13)
with moderate leaching to wash out salts and to reestablish
nutrient balance.
• It is likely that repeat applications may be needed."
Me? I use an assortment of liming agents with various CCE #s...including--dolomitic limestone (CCE 100), calcitic limestone (CCE 100), oyster shell powder (CCE 75), wood ash (CCE 80--right from my fire place), and hydrated lime (CCE 136). Although the PH for Fossil Shell Flour is around 8, it does not seem to impact the soil's PH, so I do not consider the 3-6% of FSF I add as a liming agent. Caveat--not all of my liming agents are "organic" but work perfectly for me.
Cheers!
I think the big thing if you're going to use dolomite lime in any capacity, whether for pH buffering or for mineral sources, is to also provide a fuck ton more of calcium otherwise to offset dolomite's terrible Ca:Mg ratio.
For example, something like dolomite+gypsum+oyster shell=cool.
Dolomite by itself... I'll pass.
Re: organics & potassium silicate - should've probably posted this here so that High Brix thread doesn't get derailed.
Potassium silicate is allowed in organic farming as a fertilizer and soil conditioner by the IFOAM and CODEX.
It is only the USDA's NOP that restricts its use to only foliar applications and they do so, it appears, mainly for 3 reasons.
One is that potassium silicate is already an approved fertilizer for use in conventional agriculture - this appears to have made the NOP reluctant to include it on their allowed list which is unfortunate. Just because something can be used in conventional farming does not mean it is inherently incompatible with organic farming. They're main hang up seems to be that they suspect some producers will use byproduct slag as filler and they're concerned about this being applied to soils. Thus the approval of foliar applications but not so much on the soil use.
A second reason seems to be related to the fact that potassium silicate is classified by the EPA as a pesticide. This one is a little odd because they acknowledge it is a pesticide but also mention its use as a fertilizer in conventional farming. So apparently, in conventional farming its cool to use pesticides as fertilizers but in organic farming that is a no no. Well, I'm glad they at least seem to have taken that line. Otherwise we might see Eagle20 approved for organic farming. I just wish they understood the items they are regulating a little bit better because they seem to be painting with a broad brush.
And the third is tied in to the first, they expressed concerns about manufacturers/sellers using slag from synthetic silica fertilizers which would add unnecessary amounts of heavy metals to potassium silicate intended for organic farming. It's actually a surprisingly rational concern from the NOP, if only they applied that same logic and concern to many other issues with organic farming.
From the NOP's petition review of potassium silicate
I think this issue is a good reminder of how not all organic certifications are equal and underscores the importance of these certifying agencies to get it right and develop more uniform standards. As it is, you can almost find any answer you want, yay or nay, on certain items depending on where you look. The inconsistencies from one agency to the next is the real problem.
Eclipse, have you ever tried ortho-silicic acid? I have come across a product recently that claims to have exceptionally high bio-availability. It is used primarily with horses, it's called OrthoPur Si. I'm curious about it.
For example, something like dolomite+gypsum+oyster shell=cool.
Dolomite by itself... I'll pass.
Re: organics & potassium silicate - should've probably posted this here so that High Brix thread doesn't get derailed.
Potassium silicate is allowed in organic farming as a fertilizer and soil conditioner by the IFOAM and CODEX.
It is only the USDA's NOP that restricts its use to only foliar applications and they do so, it appears, mainly for 3 reasons.
One is that potassium silicate is already an approved fertilizer for use in conventional agriculture - this appears to have made the NOP reluctant to include it on their allowed list which is unfortunate. Just because something can be used in conventional farming does not mean it is inherently incompatible with organic farming. They're main hang up seems to be that they suspect some producers will use byproduct slag as filler and they're concerned about this being applied to soils. Thus the approval of foliar applications but not so much on the soil use.
A second reason seems to be related to the fact that potassium silicate is classified by the EPA as a pesticide. This one is a little odd because they acknowledge it is a pesticide but also mention its use as a fertilizer in conventional farming. So apparently, in conventional farming its cool to use pesticides as fertilizers but in organic farming that is a no no. Well, I'm glad they at least seem to have taken that line. Otherwise we might see Eagle20 approved for organic farming. I just wish they understood the items they are regulating a little bit better because they seem to be painting with a broad brush.
And the third is tied in to the first, they expressed concerns about manufacturers/sellers using slag from synthetic silica fertilizers which would add unnecessary amounts of heavy metals to potassium silicate intended for organic farming. It's actually a surprisingly rational concern from the NOP, if only they applied that same logic and concern to many other issues with organic farming.
From the NOP's petition review of potassium silicate
This drives home the point that they acknowledge its nutrient benefits but worry on behalf of organic farmers about how it is sourced and manufactured.
What I think this might really be saying is... any of you guys using ProTekt or Silica Blast should come jump on the AgSil16H bandwagon. Still want to do some more research on finding a better Si source, though.
I think this issue is a good reminder of how not all organic certifications are equal and underscores the importance of these certifying agencies to get it right and develop more uniform standards. As it is, you can almost find any answer you want, yay or nay, on certain items depending on where you look. The inconsistencies from one agency to the next is the real problem.
Eclipse, have you ever tried ortho-silicic acid? I have come across a product recently that claims to have exceptionally high bio-availability. It is used primarily with horses, it's called OrthoPur Si. I'm curious about it.
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captinahab
Member
Si... sillica aka potassium silicate is also in dandelion and horestail
You can buy earth juice meta-k, agsil16, silica blast, rhino skin, etc but its all free in nature. Dandelions will be coming out soon so gather as many as you can and dry them.
I dont worry about pm... i always keep my humidity below 30%
You can buy earth juice meta-k, agsil16, silica blast, rhino skin, etc but its all free in nature. Dandelions will be coming out soon so gather as many as you can and dry them.
I dont worry about pm... i always keep my humidity below 30%
captinahab
Member
My notes say to collect the leaves before they go to seed. Dry them in the sun long enough to get the moisture out for an hour and then let them dry in non dirrect sunlight and jar up.
The stores have dandelion root? Wonder if that will work too. Im going to try a tea myself to clear up oil on my skin as its supposed to get rid of bacteria. My skin gets so oilly. And zits are formed from bacteria on the skin..
The stores have dandelion root? Wonder if that will work too. Im going to try a tea myself to clear up oil on my skin as its supposed to get rid of bacteria. My skin gets so oilly. And zits are formed from bacteria on the skin..
Not sure why you want to make life harder than it needs to be? Just use the GH line of PH Down, and PH Up.
R.Fortune
R.Fortune
Scottish, I was very much concerned about the phytotoxicity possibilities of using excess amounts of chemical PH up/down that's why I was looking for an organic alternative. After doing more research and with the use of this thread I am now making my nutrient mixes with the use of a TDS meter. Now I'm using less nutes and a lot less Ph up. For now it's wait and see how the plants respond but I believe I'm on the right track.
I want to thank everyone who chimed in on this thread. There is an awful lot to learn and it's always great to have people who you can talk too and get advice and help from.
Redbuddz
I want to thank everyone who chimed in on this thread. There is an awful lot to learn and it's always great to have people who you can talk too and get advice and help from.
Redbuddz
MikeChapman22
New member
Humic Acid can Restore the Health of Your Soil but I agree with Mr. Rasputin ProTekt is best increase pH.Using on my vegging plants and so far have achieved good results.
Yes, there is much good info within this thread
I'm growing in a soilless mix so PH is very important just like Hydro
Originally I was concerned about the phytotoxicity caused by repeated usage of chemical based PH up/down but I have since adjusted my nutrient mix ratios and I am now adding very little PH up so I no longer have toxic concerns.
