What to use for Organic PH up?

[captinahab]

From my notebook (someone elses words)

"In organic soil (aka living soil) you also do not adjust the ph. The microbes control the ph and the plant controls the microbs. CAC(cation exchange capacity)... humic substances and clay will hold calcium ions wherr they can be exchanged with other cautions for uptake by the roots.

Thats how humic substances and clay play the role they do in maintning the p.h. (to many free ions without a home to land on).

Trying to amend ones way to successful gardening is basicaly an attempt to appy the concepts of hydoponics to soil.

Pointless as usual "

So it looks like soil people dont p.h. either...i really do not see the need for p.h. meters at all.... but i still am curious what your ppm is with your normal base food without ph adjustment?

I would play with it... and more base or water till the solution reads a ph of what you want(although plants will change the p.h. to their own liking). Good chance if the p.h. is good then its a ballanced drink for the girls... hey i guess i do have a use for ph meters after all.

 

[Redbuddz]

I'm using premiers pro mix and Sunshine mix#4. Both of which are peat based with no nutritional value.

 

[Redbuddz]

Ahab, I will have to find my TDS/EC meter and hope the probe is still good. I have not used for a few years

 

[captinahab]

Thanks for the info Ahab but I'm not so sure that 1400ppm is always going to get you a perfect PH? I have heard from some others that they also do not measure PH and instead use PPM. I will try using my EC/PPM meter and see what levels I'm getting with my Nutrient mix. I'm using Botanicare's Pro series and I'm following their feed chart so I believe that some form of PH up/down has to be used?. I'm guessing that my PH issues are being caused from the tap water I'm using which has a PH of 8+

Seems like I'm getting varying answers and I suppose that's because everyone is using different sources of water as well as different nutrients/supplements.

1400 ppm was with my base... your base may be way different. Adjust your base until you get a correct p.h. and then test your ppm's if it says 1250 ppms then thats your base number you should be hitting . You can make up another batch to 1250 ppms and guess what..... when you messure the ph its right on the money every time. Funny how it works.

I use tap water at 8 or higher p.h. with no problems. I bubble it for 3 days before use. Stable and no problems

 

[Redbuddz]

I have also heard of people using air stones to stabilize PH

 

[Redbuddz]

My plants are currently healthy and thriving but I seem to be going thru a lot of PH up and I just don't want to deal with the consequences so I'm trying to nip it in the bud. LOL

 

[captinahab]

My plants are currently healthy and thriving but I seem to be going thru a lot of PH up and I just don't want to deal with the consequences so I'm trying to nip it in the bud. LOL

Excelent!!! Glad to hear they are healthy. my last grow was my 20 year aniv of growing. As a middle finger up... wave that flag high and proud... i did a tribute grow of albfuct (from auzzie land) high plant count sog.

I only added a and b to the rez... nothing else... and i only changed the rez ever 12 weeks. Them girlz couldnt have been happier... i love k.i.s.s. growing styles. Once a week id top off the rez and check the ppms. Bout 15 minutes of work.. thats it and the plants did the rest.. no burns... no defficencies.

Would still be doing it but i had a close call. Had to chop em down one day after about 20 sucessful runs... Glad i did.. now i keep it under 10 till i escape from hell.

 

[G.O. Joe]

Others here recommend adding dolomite to promix on top of what's already in there - IME it's a good idea. Do not use hydrated lime, garden lime, this is calcium hydroxide which is too strong.

Peat is acid of course but maybe the nitrogen that's not already nitrate in the guano and fish meal might become more acidic in the soil in time. I add a few drops of 10% ammonia to PBP to 6.2 so that I feel good when watering - this would eventually lower the pH, without the extra dolomite.

 

[captinahab]

Ive got bags of these. Each one was a plant done in hydro with no ph up, ph, down, humic acid, protekt, lime, silica... etc. Just base nutes. Never tried to adjust ph once. Just my experince.. many ways to do the same thing.

Before someone asks.... i flooded my tables high so i didnt want the rockwool cubes staying wet. When the clones started to root.. id pull open the cube and gently put them strait into the hydroton and discard the cube.

 

[One2Lurk]

There seems to be a lot of confusion about ph. I believe a lot of this stems from differences in water quality. I've been involved in the aquarium hobby for 3+ decades. I've kept fresh, salt, planted, virtually any kind of aquarium you can think of at one time or another. The missing bit of information is the carbonate hardness. The tds is a representation of total dissolved solids aka all the crap in your water. Carbonate hardness tells us about the waters buffering capacity. Water with a low carbonate hardness is very easy to adjust the ph. Unfortunately, it also exhibits little stability. Swinging very easily. Water with a high carbonate hardness on the other hand will respond briefly to your attemp to adjust the ph. Then after a few hours or days it will be "buffered" right back where it started. It is this "buffering" effect that causes so many headaches.

To look at this a little closer to our world, consider that a fairly small amount of dissolved calcium, lime etc can have big effects on our ph, and the carbonate hardness. Now think about all the minerals etc in soil. Often these are amended with copious amounts of limestone, and assorted soil conditioners. Each adding to the buffering capacity of gallons of soil. Simply put, your constant adding of

 

[One2Lurk]

Continued:
Ph+ and or - is in vain. Unless of course you plan to try to neutralize ALL the buffering you already added. Simply put, adjust your soil mix (if really necessary).

Ahab, I'm guessing you have a fairly high CaCo3. It's what's requiring you to use a quite strong solution. If its working for you and your strains your working with... Awesome. 1400 ppm would fry a lot of strains. I'm guessing your using the .7 conversion. (Still strong).

To the Op. Botanicare PBP has a great ph buffering capacity. Try letting it work. The deficiency you speak of, start at the top, or bottom?

 

[One2Lurk]

Also, I've never heard of using humid acid to raise ph. Unless I'm missin some more complex reaction, acid will lower ph.

 

[RoadRash]

potassium bicarbonate

Exactly !

Commercial "pH up" is often Potassium Carbonat.

A little bit goes a long way.

e.g. 1/4 Teaspoon in 4 gallons neutral pH water - raises the pH to about 8.5.


Lime Baby Lime. Dolomitic Lime that is.


Not the kind that was used to torture this poor little kitty -

 

[captinahab]

Continued:
Ph+ and or - is in vain. Unless of course you plan to try to neutralize ALL the buffering you already added. Simply put, adjust your soil mix (if really necessary).

Ahab, I'm guessing you have a fairly high CaCo3. It's what's requiring you to use a quite strong solution. If its working for you and your strains your working with... Awesome. 1400 ppm would fry a lot of strains. I'm guessing your using the .7 conversion. (Still strong).

To the Op. Botanicare PBP has a great ph buffering capacity. Try letting it work. The deficiency you speak of, start at the top, or bottom?

Very well said... id give you props if i new how..... you arnt a newby are ya? I think its all about finding what works for you in your region. The OP said his plants are doing well ...so thats a great sign he is on the right track. If he keeps from adding "this or that" on others advice he will have less problems to correct down the line.

 

[captinahab]

Ive got pages and pages in my notebook on "why to never add dolimite lime to the soil" here is a snip it of it

"So back to the dolomite lime and why it is used in commercial potting soils. Certainly not used by professional nurseries. Other than for specific growing schedules like 3 to 5 years in containers. Even then dolomite lime is part of a liming agent that will include gypsum (cal-sul), limestone, or one of the shell meals. Bottom line is that dolomite lime is the least expensive because calcuim carbonate is widely used in animal and human supplements.

Same for livestock and poultry. Calcium is a necessary part of their feed and dolomite lime isnt part of that. Dolomite lime has several industrial, manufacturing uses. It is not the big deal in agriculture or horticulture like it is in the cannabis hobby gardening paradim"

"Dolomite lime is used 'in the real world' when a complete soil anaysis has been done and now you have a complete overview of the elemental levels... CEC... and its been established that the low levels existfor the long term on magnesium percentage. Even then dolomite lime is applied every 4 to 5 years. The mag level in dolomite lime arrives as magnesuim carbonate (mgC03) but its abit more complex than that............. " and it goes on but im typing this by my fat fingers from my notes instead of cut copy paste so im done...lol

 

[Redbuddz]

One2lurk. I have read that Humic acid has a PH of around 12 so using will raise your PH

 

[One2Lurk]

One2lurk. I have read that Humic acid has a PH of around 12 so using will raise your PH

Apparently there are many "Humic acids". But by definition acid refers to a ph under 7. Over 7 is Alkaline. Making a Humic acid ph 12 a confusing misnomer.

I'm no expert, especially in the world of organics and humates. Does Humic acid (in any form) have a ph that high? Doesn't seem right. Everything I've read about Humic acid involves an acid environment (low ph).

 

[One2Lurk]

I think you mean ph 1-2;-)

 

[G.O. Joe]

dolomite lime is part of a liming agent that will include gypsum (cal-sul), limestone, or one of the shell meals.

Not sure what you're saying, as except for the chemically inert gypsum, they're all more or less calcium carbonate. Particle size is probably the more important factor. The magnesium in dolomite is bonus. It works fine for neutralizing excess acid.

Only the strongest bases have dilute solution pH in the area of 12. Nothing with acid in the name for sure.

 

[captinahab]

In soil humic acid is present even if you dont add it thru compost

Notes:
" humic acid and fulvic acid are types of 'humic substances' the major components of organic matter found throught nature as a result of the actions of millions of benificial microbes on decomposing plants (humification). CONSIDERED TO BE THE MOST CHEMICALLY ACTIVE COMPOND IN SOIL, humic substances contain many nutritional phytochemical groups

Including- natural sterois, hormones, fatty acids, polyphenols, and ketones. As well as phytochemical subgroups of compounds such as: flavanoids, flavonls, flavins, catechins, tannins, quinones, isoflavones, and tocopherols"

Its a great thing to add in small doses . The three little birds use to preach of its use two weeks before harvest long ago. Im not sure if id wanna add it every watering to correct ph thou