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LED Help Please!!!
- Thread starter FLAgreenthumb
- Start date
Bottom line is that it seems avoiding buy "cheap Chinese crap" leads to two things:
1) Fooling yourself into believing that you're not buying "cheap Chinese crap," whereas you actually are, stamped with a different logo that sounds more 'merican.
2) A much greater hole in your pocket. E.g., with shipping, BSLED SP112D-315W was quoted to me as $442. For effectively the same model from HGL, you pay $1200, almost a 200% increase in price.
Enjoy your patriotism!
1) Fooling yourself into believing that you're not buying "cheap Chinese crap," whereas you actually are, stamped with a different logo that sounds more 'merican.
2) A much greater hole in your pocket. E.g., with shipping, BSLED SP112D-315W was quoted to me as $442. For effectively the same model from HGL, you pay $1200, almost a 200% increase in price.
Enjoy your patriotism!
Monkey makes SOME good points. I do like his special blend. There certainly are plenty of lies still being told.
Shenzen is a big factory from which many buy. Saying the light has Cree/Osram/Helios... is one thing, proving it is another
I just posted this in another IC thread:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Based on MSRP, some certainly think their lights are equivalent to a Bentley
The good news IMHO is...
we do not need Bentleys
Apache Tech is a Bentley equivalent. A51 has an excellent high efficient light for about half the AT, but is still pricey for some
What I learned from 3 years using an 8 bulb Quantum Bad Boy and in another tent multiple ufo 90s (different spectrums) + led tube lights + household retrofit led lights is: all panels/lights have a sweet spot which is roughly within 15" of the panel.
Providing even distribution throughout is more important than bombarding one part of that area with a point source light (hps/mh) or even a single led panel of high wattage.
You can increase penetration by having multiple lights on slightly different angles
Most commercial led offerings have low efficiency (~20%) from which the lens covers and glass protectors take away ~ 20% of that. No wonder their are so many haters.
The new generation led lights use cobs + reflectors. They are simpler, and provide better performance than the old tech of spreading diodes all over a board. They are also easier to repair/upgrade. They look alike, but there are differences.
Grow Evolution has piggyback capability and supposedly a proprietary cob, but LEDPlantLight costs a lot less
I have seen several grows using his style and they are kickin it
LED tech still has a lot of advances in the making, so why fork over big money now?
This new cob + reflector makes DIY pretty straight forward. Those guys are using high quality and more efficient cobs hitting ~ 40% efficiency[/FONT]
Shenzen is a big factory from which many buy. Saying the light has Cree/Osram/Helios... is one thing, proving it is another
I just posted this in another IC thread:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Based on MSRP, some certainly think their lights are equivalent to a Bentley
The good news IMHO is...
we do not need Bentleys
Apache Tech is a Bentley equivalent. A51 has an excellent high efficient light for about half the AT, but is still pricey for some
What I learned from 3 years using an 8 bulb Quantum Bad Boy and in another tent multiple ufo 90s (different spectrums) + led tube lights + household retrofit led lights is: all panels/lights have a sweet spot which is roughly within 15" of the panel.
Providing even distribution throughout is more important than bombarding one part of that area with a point source light (hps/mh) or even a single led panel of high wattage.
You can increase penetration by having multiple lights on slightly different angles
Most commercial led offerings have low efficiency (~20%) from which the lens covers and glass protectors take away ~ 20% of that. No wonder their are so many haters.
The new generation led lights use cobs + reflectors. They are simpler, and provide better performance than the old tech of spreading diodes all over a board. They are also easier to repair/upgrade. They look alike, but there are differences.
Grow Evolution has piggyback capability and supposedly a proprietary cob, but LEDPlantLight costs a lot less
I have seen several grows using his style and they are kickin it
LED tech still has a lot of advances in the making, so why fork over big money now?
This new cob + reflector makes DIY pretty straight forward. Those guys are using high quality and more efficient cobs hitting ~ 40% efficiency[/FONT]
flat9 - The bottom line for me is that I made my own with an LED from the USA (cree) and a driver from Taiwan (meanwell). I don't need chinese junk no matter where it comes from. You make it sound like a person has no choice but to only buy a chinese light.
Surprisingly, I did hear back from LEDPlantLight
They say they have 2 different chips, and sent me a bad link to the correct one
They also sent me a breakdown of the 3w diodes inside each.
Oddly, they have a 75w and 100w chip, neither has good spectrum balance, and neither are operating at 700mA, more like 500-600 WTF? Heat sinks too small? Dunno
Neither looks like the pictured chip in their lens cob light
They asked for my input which I gave
They say they have 2 different chips, and sent me a bad link to the correct one
They also sent me a breakdown of the 3w diodes inside each.
Oddly, they have a 75w and 100w chip, neither has good spectrum balance, and neither are operating at 700mA, more like 500-600 WTF? Heat sinks too small? Dunno
Neither looks like the pictured chip in their lens cob light
They asked for my input which I gave
FLAgreenthumb
Active member
Grower's House also has been doing some great PAR testing on LEDs. Check out their website, and also this:
http://growershouse.com/images/ALTEST_infographic_1.pdf
Thanks for all the info.... especially the link to the review above
Some of us got a little side tracked...lol but hey that was entertaining and informative as well! certainly narrows the field to kind, lush and hydro grow. I really like lush lighting, and honestly the biggest thing keeping me from pulling the trigger on a couple of dominator XL's is the possibility of literally spending half that amount of money on bud boss 151's.... So does anyone have anything to say, good or bad, about the grow evolution Bud Boss lights and/or the lush lighting led's?
again thanks for all the comments and suggestions...
If I was on a budget (could not afford $575 for 190w A51 (keep in mind it is ~ 30-40% more efficient than the BB) and i needed to pull the trigger today, from what I know, the BB looks like a very good choice
Grower's House also has been doing some great PAR testing on LEDs. Check out their website, and also this:
http://growershouse.com/images/ALTEST_infographic_1.pdf
Thanks for all the info.... especially the link to the review above
Some of us got a little side tracked...lol but hey that was entertaining and informative as well! certainly narrows the field to kind, lush and hydro grow. I really like lush lighting, and honestly the biggest thing keeping me from pulling the trigger on a couple of dominator XL's is the possibility of literally spending half that amount of money on bud boss 151's.... So does anyone have anything to say, good or bad, about the grow evolution Bud Boss lights and/or the lush lighting led's?
again thanks for all the comments and suggestions...
Wow, lots of bickering here thru this thread and I'd like to throw my two cents in as well. lol. Seems there are just way too many variables with LED lights to be able to make a sound decision. Led is likely the lighting of the very near future but for now I'm sticking with ole reliable HID lighting
Seems Grow Evolution are just these:
http://www.ledaquagrow.com/LEDGrowLight/COBReflectorSeries.html
They're priced aggressively -- I wonder what quote I'll get from the company in China that makes 'em...
http://www.ledaquagrow.com/LEDGrowLight/COBReflectorSeries.html
They're priced aggressively -- I wonder what quote I'll get from the company in China that makes 'em...
Seems Grow Evolution are just these:
http://www.ledaquagrow.com/LEDGrowLight/COBReflectorSeries.html
They're priced aggressively -- I wonder what quote I'll get from the company in China that makes 'em...
http://www.ledaquagrow.com/LEDGrowLight/COBReflectorSeries.html
They're priced aggressively -- I wonder what quote I'll get from the company in China that makes 'em...
OK..ok i know everyones always asking which brand is best but Iam going to be buying lighting for a 4x8 canopy...and I know I want led..
The front runner is lush lighting, with kind and growblu in a tie at second...I also like the Hydrogrow 189x and the SOL9 450w... i would like to spend as little as possible...lol
any help would be greatly appreciated....
i haven't had any first hand experience with any of them. but your lead in comment confused me. you said you favored Lush but wanted to spend as little as possible. Lush has some pretty expensive lights!
I hadn't seen anyone mention TOPLED (yes, it is a Chinese company). i have not used them. i am not touting them. i am just curious if people here have tried them or know enough about them to offer a comparison discussion. their top end product, Mars II 1200W, uses 240 5W LED's and costs $475. that seems to me to be a good value compared to Area 51, Budmaster, Lush, Kind, Growblu or other lights. just don't know enough yet to justify that impression. i'd appreciate reasonable guidance
Ok, I can't resist any longer.
If you are interested in higher yields at lower wattage, excellent penetration, easily-handled heat generation, comparatively low cost, the ability to see the plants under full-spectrum lighting to more easily troubleshoot and enjoy your time with them - then check out the CMH thread.
I have spent several thousand dollars and a bunch of time chasing LED technology. I grew some very nice plants under them and was generally pretty happy with the overall picture. In fact, I was planning on modifying my Hybrid fixture, replacing the PL-Ls with some high-wattage white LEDs. I had been following Spurr's posts on the upcoming release of the Cycloptics reflector and had been very interested in it because of the vertical lamp orientation, and his preliminary information on the lamp was intriguing. When I started searching for parts to modify my fixture, I ran across some killer prices on the Philips 315w CDM Elite ballasts, and shortly afterward, a case lot of lamps.
Over the last 14 months, I've found that the 315 does all of the things that I said in the paragraph up above. I still haven't found the limits of it's capabilities. I just finished a run of of the same strain that I had run several times under my Lumigrow ES330, and wound up with an uplift in gpw of 37% on the first run with it. And where the run under the Lumi was pretty well optimized, there is still the potential for much, much more under the 315. Light output per watt is comparable to the better LEDs, my tents actually run cooler with vented hoods than with LEDs discharging heat in an uncontrolled manner, and lamp life with at least one aftermarket ballast manufacturer is comparable to LEDs (their target market is retrofitting streetlights, and LEDs are their competition),
I think that LEDs will eventually be the ultimate lighting source. However, at this point, we simply don't know enough about how the plant relates to light to really target their needs. The NASA paradigm of red-blue light and chlorophyll charts fail to tell the whole story. How can a plant evolve under full-spectrum light for millions of years, and only use a couple of very tightly limited portions of it? The relatively recent discovery of how a plant does use green light is a perfect example of the limits of our knowledge. The usage of white LEDs is a step in the right direction, but they are incredibly limited in comparison to a highly-efficient HID with a similar spectrum. They are also a hell of a lot more expensive.
The CDM information doesn't start until about the last quarter of the thread - https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=72215
If you are interested in higher yields at lower wattage, excellent penetration, easily-handled heat generation, comparatively low cost, the ability to see the plants under full-spectrum lighting to more easily troubleshoot and enjoy your time with them - then check out the CMH thread.
I have spent several thousand dollars and a bunch of time chasing LED technology. I grew some very nice plants under them and was generally pretty happy with the overall picture. In fact, I was planning on modifying my Hybrid fixture, replacing the PL-Ls with some high-wattage white LEDs. I had been following Spurr's posts on the upcoming release of the Cycloptics reflector and had been very interested in it because of the vertical lamp orientation, and his preliminary information on the lamp was intriguing. When I started searching for parts to modify my fixture, I ran across some killer prices on the Philips 315w CDM Elite ballasts, and shortly afterward, a case lot of lamps.
Over the last 14 months, I've found that the 315 does all of the things that I said in the paragraph up above. I still haven't found the limits of it's capabilities. I just finished a run of of the same strain that I had run several times under my Lumigrow ES330, and wound up with an uplift in gpw of 37% on the first run with it. And where the run under the Lumi was pretty well optimized, there is still the potential for much, much more under the 315. Light output per watt is comparable to the better LEDs, my tents actually run cooler with vented hoods than with LEDs discharging heat in an uncontrolled manner, and lamp life with at least one aftermarket ballast manufacturer is comparable to LEDs (their target market is retrofitting streetlights, and LEDs are their competition),
I think that LEDs will eventually be the ultimate lighting source. However, at this point, we simply don't know enough about how the plant relates to light to really target their needs. The NASA paradigm of red-blue light and chlorophyll charts fail to tell the whole story. How can a plant evolve under full-spectrum light for millions of years, and only use a couple of very tightly limited portions of it? The relatively recent discovery of how a plant does use green light is a perfect example of the limits of our knowledge. The usage of white LEDs is a step in the right direction, but they are incredibly limited in comparison to a highly-efficient HID with a similar spectrum. They are also a hell of a lot more expensive.
The CDM information doesn't start until about the last quarter of the thread - https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=72215
arrrgh!! damn you Rives, just when i thought i was starting to get a handle on what might be best for one aspect of growing, you have to go and show me something that may be even better. now, even more reading to do. i haven't studied this much since..., probably never did study this much when i was supposed to be studying
There is an 860w CDM lamp that a few people are using, but I have no experience with it. I am set up to run multiple 315s (side-by-side hoods), but have limited experience with it so far - I've gotten distracted with chasing the limits of a single lamp coverage. I just started to flower out a run that has (2) 600w Bell hoods side-by-side, each with a 315 in them. In the near future, I think that I will pick up one of the 1000w Bell Lighting hoods and set it up with (2) 315's in it. In that respect, I don't think that it is much different than LEDs - multiple low-wattage fixtures spread over the canopy works very well.
The picture below is a 4x4 tent with a single 315, for a level of just under 20 watts per square foot.
And a closeup on harvest day -
The picture below is a 4x4 tent with a single 315, for a level of just under 20 watts per square foot.
And a closeup on harvest day -
Cannaporn! Thanks Rives.
To get an idea of what I was talking about with respect to too much PAR focused on one area, here's Grower's House test for the Apache Tech AT600. Note that this unit draws 768 watts from the wall.
All that PAR beyond 1000+ is likely overkill, and it comes at the sacrifice of having relatively little energy at the 3 ft and 4 ft. I think if you're looking to grow horizontally with an even canopy, it'd be best to get many smaller units (maybe 4 of the HGL 189x equivalent lamps for about 1100 watts over that area).
Conversely, here's the PAR grid for the Phillips DE 1000 watt bulb with the Sun Systems AC/DE reflector:
Definitely would take this over the LEDs... even at the cost of an extra 400 watts or so. It covers a 3 x 3 very well, and still has some decent light for a 4 x 4.
To get an idea of what I was talking about with respect to too much PAR focused on one area, here's Grower's House test for the Apache Tech AT600. Note that this unit draws 768 watts from the wall.
All that PAR beyond 1000+ is likely overkill, and it comes at the sacrifice of having relatively little energy at the 3 ft and 4 ft. I think if you're looking to grow horizontally with an even canopy, it'd be best to get many smaller units (maybe 4 of the HGL 189x equivalent lamps for about 1100 watts over that area).
Conversely, here's the PAR grid for the Phillips DE 1000 watt bulb with the Sun Systems AC/DE reflector:
Definitely would take this over the LEDs... even at the cost of an extra 400 watts or so. It covers a 3 x 3 very well, and still has some decent light for a 4 x 4.
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